Submitting, what's that?

[BigToe2]

its not about feminism... any woman calls for equality on any issue and someone yells feminism... thats not a bad thing to want.

 

[Buskanaka]

well biblical submission isn't about equality either. feminism has tried to make out thats what it is, I think they've done a pretty good job too and everyone can see that it hasn't helped relationships.

 

[Snowhite]

well biblical submission isn't about equality either. feminism has tried to make out thats what it is, I think they've done a pretty good job too and everyone can see that it hasn't helped relationships.

Well, since all Christians are called to submit to one another, I would say that hints of equality. Feminism in it's correct sense ought to be implemented in every marriage. So, no, everyone cannot see that feminism is a destrroyer of relationships.

Let me define my idea of Biblical feminism for you: All children of God are equal and share in the gift of God's salvation equaly. The holy spirit speaks to both men and woman regardless of marital status. God calls both men and women to do his work in many different ways. God gifts both men and women, and both are capapble of being equaly intelligent, spiritual and sucessful.

I could go on but I think you get the idea. If you see anything there that you think is bad or objectionable, that's pretty scary.

 

[PrNcSsChRmNg91]

Mina - of course I'm not trying to pick a fight with you. LOL! I'm sorry if I sound a bit rude with my posts, I know I can be a bit err.... defensive and kinda bossy. LOL!

well biblical submission isn't about equality either. feminism has tried to make out thats what it is, I think they've done a pretty good job too and everyone can see that it hasn't helped relationships.

I'm not sure what you mean about that. Please clarify your statement for me, thanks.

Well, since all Christians are called to submit to one another, I would say that hints of equality. Feminism in it's correct sense ought to be implemented in every marriage. So, no, everyone cannot see that feminism is a destrroyer of relationships.

Let me define my idea of Biblical feminism for you: All children of God are equal and share in the gift of God's salvation equaly. The holy spirit speaks to both men and woman regardless of marital status. God calls both men and women to do his work in many different ways. God gifts both men and women, and both are capapble of being equaly intelligent, spiritual and sucessful.

I could go on but I think you get the idea. If you see anything there that you think is bad or objectionable, that's pretty scary.

Woah! Very very well said and I couldn't have said it better!

 

[mina]

I find out more everyday about how much I don't know about anything so I'm not trying to say I know it all about anything. All I know is that submitting was good enough for Jesus to do so I consider it an honour to do it too. But I'm not even married and probably won't be so I guess I won't ever get the chance to do it. But I do think men and women are equal in Christ. Differences do not make anyone less than the other one. Honestly I don't see how submitting makes one less from a Biblical perspective.

 

[Snowhite]

It makes one less by saying that only one or the two in a relationship is supposed to do it, Mina. You're right that Christ was an excellent example of submission. It's a pity that society excludes men from this calling.

 

[BigToe2]

I think everyone should submit to others. Everyone has their areas of "expertise" and the rest of us should probably "submit" to them in that area because we don't know it as well. Typically the woman is more nurturing, so men should "submit" to her in that area. Typically men are tougher and more stern, so women should "submit" to them in that way. But sometimes the male is more nurturing and the female is more stern- you just switch when you "submit" to the other. Its not like the woman is asking to be better than the man or vice verse.

When I think of biblical submission, i think of the man loving her the way the bridegroom does in Song of Soloman. But because people play different "roles" in the marraige doesn't make one or the other the lesser. In a marraige both partners should be equal. If you can't look at your spouse as your equal... well I think that would add to other problems- issues of poor self esteem, an inferiority complex, worrying that they will leave you when they find someone more on their level... no- you should be EQUAL with your spouse.

 

[mina]

how does that make the woman less? And where in the Bible does it limit him to submit? God did not submit to Christ but does that make Christ less than God??? no. If you are in a marriage, you have to go into it looking at your SO as your equal, even though they are going to be vastly different from you emotionally, physically, etc.... Difference does not mean that you are not equal. I think the man should take the initiative to be the spiritual head in the home. How does that make a woman less than equal? That would only happen if the man was misusing that to abuse the woman's dignity. But if a man truly loves you like he should, he's going to want to be your human hero in all areas including carring for you and your family and guiding you so that you all are blessed. True leadership is in a way submitting in love- he's not doing it only for his good alone, but putting everyone's good above his own. There is extreme sacrifice in being the head of a home.

 

[Buskanaka]

Let me define my idea of Biblical feminism for you: All children of God are equal and share in the gift of God's salvation equaly. The holy spirit speaks to both men and woman regardless of marital status. God calls both men and women to do his work in many different ways. God gifts both men and women, and both are capapble of being equaly intelligent, spiritual and sucessful.

I could go on but I think you get the idea. If you see anything there that you think is bad or objectionable, that's pretty scary.

I agree totally! I don't think you have actually been reading my posts properly because nowhere in any of them have I said that women are lesser than men, or that God only gives salvation/Holy Spirit to men! I have no idea where you got that idea from but it definitely wasn't from anything I said.

When I said it's not about equality I meant that many feminists insist that men and women are the same, women can do anything men can do so they try and make everything the same, even though clearly we are significantly different, and have different roles we are called to fulfil. However both men and women are equally valuable as human beings.

how does that make the woman less? And where in the Bible does it limit him to submit? God did not submit to Christ but does that make Christ less than God??? no. If you are in a marriage, you have to go into it looking at your SO as your equal, even though they are going to be vastly different from you emotionally, physically, etc.... Difference does not mean that you are not equal. I think the man should take the initiative to be the spiritual head in the home. How does that make a woman less than equal? That would only happen if the man was misusing that to abuse the woman's dignity. But if a man truly loves you like he should, he's going to want to be your human hero in all areas including carring for you and your family and guiding you so that you all are blessed. True leadership is in a way submitting in love- he's not doing it only for his good alone, but putting everyone's good above his own. There is extreme sacrifice in being the head of a home.

mina, you rock!

 

[PrNcSsChRmNg91]

When I said it's not about equality I meant that many feminists insist that men and women are the same, women can do anything men can do so they try and make everything the same, even though clearly we are significantly different, and have different roles we are called to fulfil. However both men and women are equally valuable as human beings.

But see women can do everything a man can do if they try hard enough except women can't fertilize an egg. And a man can do anying a woman can do if he tries hard enough except of course getting pregnant (pity eh? )

But seriously - I believe that women and men have physical differences but they are equal in every other aspect and in of course God's eyes.

 

[Snowhite]

I agree totally! I don't think you have actually been reading my posts properly because nowhere in any of them have I said that women are lesser than men, or that God only gives salvation/Holy Spirit to men! I have no idea where you got that idea from but it definitely wasn't from anything I said.

When I said it's not about equality I meant that many feminists insist that men and women are the same, women can do anything men can do so they try and make everything the same, even though clearly we are significantly different, and have different roles we are called to fulfil. However both men and women are equally valuable as human beings.

First, I have been reading your posts, I would not presume to take part in this thread if I hadn't been. If assaulting my intelligence makes you feel superior, more power to ya, buddy.

Once again, as far as the idea of equality goes, my comments were based on the idea that a husband and wife ought to 'submit' to one another in Christ as the scriptures tell us. You said on this topic, and I quote "I don't agree that the husband should be submissive to the wife". These comments are what promted my imput on equality. I hope that is clear.

 

[shania]

My opinion keeps on changing on this subject. But it is important to explore your ideas and keep on asking questions, and to be understanding about where different people are at in their faith.

I found it hard to think of submiting to someone else if it wasn`t reciprocal. I wanted to have the man`s role and didn`t like the woman's role very much.
But if I claim to be Christian and to follow the word of God, than it is my responsibility to come to some kind of conclusion about this subject.

In marriage, the man and woman become one.

As a comparision, lets take a look at the human body. The eyes are used for seeing, the ears for hearing, the nose for smelling, etc. Each part has its function, but the body is one.

If you need to make a decision, you will use your intellect (your brain), but you will also use other body parts to help you decide. If you want to decide what perfume to buy, you will use your nose and your brain will usually act on what what the nose has already decided. If you want to draw a picture, your hands were made for that. Each part has a function.

Some people are able to paint or draw with their feet, but why make the job harder than it has to be. (unless you are forced to draw with your feet because you have weak/injured hands).

We are all unique and have different talents. Usually we do a better job when we use our talents, and do a decent one when we put in extra effort to do what doesn`t come as naturally.

In the Bible, God tells us that men and women has different talents, but of course we know that there are always exceptions, as with the artist who uses his feet.

Can we contest the fact that men have an easier time building muscle mass than women do, therefore men are often physically stronger? God created differences between men and women, otherwise they`d be no need in having two sexes. So if we trust in the way God says he created us in the Bible, then life would go much more smoothly and we`d feel much more fulfilled because we`d be using our talents. Ex: If you`re great at Biology you can get an A if your work hard. If you aren`t so good at Spanish you might still be able to get an A but you`d have to put in a lot of extra work to get the same result.

God is saying he has different roles and fuctions for men and women in general.

The complete body analogy doesn`t work, however, if the husband and wife are not one.

The husband needs to love the wife as Christ loves the church, otherwise he will do things for the benefit of one or two of his senses, and not for the benefit of the whole body.

This is when the wife can remind the husband he isn`t loving her like Christ loves the church and that his motives aren`t benefiting the body/family as a whole.

God gave us a formula for relationships to work, which is rare in a day and age when divorce rates are over 50% . This is why it is important to find a partner who will live up to their responsibilities and you need to live up to yours. In areas where you are weak you can make exchanges. But in general, this is God`s formula for married couples. Isn`t it easier than having to sit down and divide everything up for yourselves?! Where`d be way too many things to decide on.

 

[PrNcSsChRmNg91]

I like your analogy with the body, but isn't it true that the brain is more important than the other part, and that it has the decision on what to do and controls the other body parts? For without the brain, the body dies but without the arm the body can still live. I know what your trying to get on with your analogy but I'm not quite sure if it works.

I think a marriage would work better like this: if both the men and women were the brain. They are both one half, or one hemisphere of the brain. In the brain, each hemisphere is different yet equal. They have different areas of expertise (sp?) but they are both needed in order for the body to function well.

IMO I think that a marriage would work better if both the woman and the man work as a team, but since I'm not married I can't exactly prove that.

 

[mamaneenie]

So are you telling me that women just have to be submissive and that they don't have to love their husbands and that would be a perfect Biblical marriage God is preaching to us? Doesn't make sense for me. And when I marry, I'm sure that I'm gonna love my husband just like how Christ loved the Church. I would risk my life for him, just like he would do for me. And then on top of that I have to be submissive? Doesn't sound like I got an easy job....

\

I think you are just looking for arguments and I refuse to answer any more of your posts.

 

[Buskanaka]

First, I have been reading your posts, I would not presume to take part in this thread if I hadn't been. If assaulting my intelligence makes you feel superior, more power to ya, buddy.

Once again, as far as the idea of equality goes, my comments were based on the idea that a husband and wife ought to 'submit' to one another in Christ as the scriptures tell us. You said on this topic, and I quote "I don't agree that the husband should be submissive to the wife". These comments are what promted my imput on equality. I hope that is clear.

I wasn't insulting your intelligence, I just get frustrated when I post something over and over again but someone still argues that I'm saying something different.
I also get annoyed when someone quotes part of something I've said and doesn't look at the rest of my statement.

 

[Snowhite]

I wasn't insulting your intelligence, I just get frustrated when I post something over and over again but someone still argues that I'm saying something different.
I also get annoyed when someone quotes part of something I've said and doesn't look at the rest of my statement.

Actually, I was trying to make clear for you what my statements were, and why I wrote them, which you continualy call into question. I'm sorry, I was assuming you meant that about husbands not submitting to wives or I would not have quoted you, perhaps I was wrong. I've backed my views scripturaly, and I see no reason to keep beating my head against a brick wall.

 

[BigToe2]

i think we should all just breathe.

 

[Buskanaka]

*breathes*

really there is no point arguing this, but ok, well done backing your views biblically snowhite, but how do you explain the verse: "wives, submit to your husband." ?

if it just meant that we should all submit to each other, then it wouldn't be in there because Paul would have just written: "everyone submit to each other" a few times.

 

[PrNcSsChRmNg91]

I think you are just looking for arguments and I refuse to answer any more of your posts.

I'm not trying to get into any arguments, I'm just trying to state my case. Seriously if I was trying to get into an argument with someone, I would be much more defensive!

i think we should all just breathe.

*takes a LONG DEEP BREATH* LOL!

 

[Snowhite]

*breathes*

really there is no point arguing this, but ok, well done backing your views biblically snowhite, but how do you explain the verse: "wives, submit to your husband." ?

if it just meant that we should all submit to each other, then it wouldn't be in there because Paul would have just written: "everyone submit to each other" a few times.

He did, try Eph 5:21, also 1 Pet 5:5

I explain that verse as Paul telling the women he was writing to one of their duties in marriage, just as he was telling those men one of their duties in marriage.

Don't worry, Erin, I'm breathing I'm actually enjoying this thread alot.