Submitting, what's that?

[mina]

I think it should be the man's job. And I think it's sorry of a man when he is a Christian and doesn't step up to it. Women end up having to shoulder his responsibilites when he doesn't do them. Christian men that don't come to church with thier family because they don't feel like it aren't doing thier job and aren't setting a very good example for thier family. From my perspective there are lots of men today in the church that don't know what it means to be the head of a family so they don't do it at all and the family unit is weakened. divorce is rampant in the church. Children are out of control within many families in the church. I don't know but maybe a lot of that would be turned around if men would take thier responsibility seriously and if women would be willing to let him. Anyways just my pov.

 

[PrNcSsChRmNg91]

I appreciate your opinion. But what would you say about a marriage where both the wife and husband work together, make decisions together, and both love each other like Christ and are both submissive to each other? When I get married, I would want to be able to love my husband and risk my life for him and I wouldn't want to be stopped by the Bible stating that it's the 'man's job'.

 

[Snowhite]

I agree, I think we need to look at how the scriptures tell Christians to treat one another. I expect my husband to treat me with respect, love and deference, as I will him. I expect we will both yield to one another in matters of opinion, and in matters of principle I expect us to be of one mind. Unselfish love is really what it's all about.

 

[mina]

I appreciate your opinion. But what would you say about a marriage where both the wife and husband work together, make decisions together, and both love each other like Christ and are both submissive to each other? When I get married, I would want to be able to love my husband and risk my life for him and I wouldn't want to be stopped by the Bible stating that it's the 'man's job'.

I think that would be a healthy relationship. I do think that the man has the greater responsibility placed on him though. a woman should be loving her husband. The Bible places the command on the husband to love his wife as Christ loved the church but the woman can do it as well, as long as he is not shirking on his job to love her. Because the Bible commands that for the husband, I believe he is held more accountable in doing that. The Bible doesn't limit a woman's ability to love. A man being the head of the family doesn't mean that they can't work together and make decisions together. It means the man has the greater responsibility to care and guide his family. Submitting doesn't mean the woman stays quiet and blindly does everything the man says. It means she trusts him to do the right thing for them and their children always. And a smart woman will marry the kind of man that is worth submitting to- not a boorish oaf that would twist submission into some kind of "you have to do everything I say" kind of thing, or some guy that doesn't want the responsibility.

 

[stray bullet]

I do agree with the fact men are being terrible spiritual role models lately. I do hope when (if?) I have a family, I will be encouraging spiritual growth and hopefully, with a great wife to assist me. As the male, the bigger one with greater muscle mass, I do feel it is my christian and biological duty to protect my wife though, just as she must be protective and willing to give her life for the kids.

However, I would not be the one to take responsibility for a woman. In other words, for a woman to give her life and responsibilities to because she's too afraid/lazy to do it herself. A woman should be strong, yet nuturing; confident, but not bossy.

 

[charligirl]

But everyone's marriage works in a different way, so I guess you should base your marriage on both of your beliefs so that you can work out who does what in the household whether it be biblical or not.

Whilst you have to agree together on what works best for you,I think it is foolish to make decisions contray to the bible. I believe that God gave us His Word to demonstrate His will and for us to follow, when we start doing things our way, because we think it is better than the biblical instruction, that is when many marriages (relationships/lives etc) come unstuck.

 

[Buskanaka]

I expect we will both yield to one another in matters of opinion

yield to one another? how does that work? Maybe you're gonna take turns or something making the decisions, like every second decision is mine? No two people in the world will totally agree about everything, how do you decide who has the final say about an important decision? I think this is part of what the bible says about being the head, there needs to be a leader because otherwise there will be total chaos when things need to be done. I'm not saying this because I'm male and want men to have all the power, I just think that's what the bible says. Also, the boss of a company is a really, really bad analogy, probably the worst ever in my opinion, because being the boss you just get to make all the decisions without caring what your employees think, you get all the perks, better pay etc. but in a biblical marriage with the husband as head there is a HUGE responsibility on the husband to care for his wife and family, and to do everything with their best interests in mind. Now that responsibility scares me, because I know it wouldn't be easy.

I had a female teacher once who had been married for 25+ years, and she said that she was happy for her husband to make important decisions that concerned them, because she knew her husband loved her and she trusted that he would always make decisions with her best interests in mind. Of course they discussed things as equals, but she was so confident her husband loved her and trusted him completely. The only command give to husbands in the bible is to love their wives, maybe if they do that properly then wives would be happy to submit biblically. Maybe that's the hardest part about marriage, for women submitting, for men loving their wives by thinking always of their wives over themselves.

That's why it's important to marry someone who is Godly and trustworthy. I think it would be hard enough sharing your life with another flawed human being when you are both striving towards the same goal, being Christ-like, how hard when they are not? I also totally agree with someone else's statement that the biblical submission is totally different to the warped ideas that the world has, as if it's some form of slavery. And I think that when women try and take over the responsibilities of the husband then they weaken him, both in his sense of self, and also in his Christian walk.

 

[Snowhite]

yield to one another? how does that work? Maybe you're gonna take turns or something making the decisions, like every second decision is mine? No two people in the world will totally agree about everything, how do you decide who has the final say about an important decision?

Let me give you an example since you don't seem to understand this concept. Suppose I want to paint the living room yellow and he wants it green, I don't expect him to say "I am the head of this house and we WILL have it green." If he wants an suv and I want a mini van, I could give in to what he wants. Also, the husbands leadership attitude is supposed to be Christ like, I can't exactly pictue Christ saying "You know what, your opinion doesn't merit, because I am the head of this house, it says so in the Bible, so get used to it". It would take a truly humble man to admit that his wife is more knowledgeable in some areas that he is, which is always the case. An intelligent man will defer to his wife's judgement on those thing swhich she knows best.

 

[mina]

a woman submitting to her husband is not lazy or irresponsible or afraid. That's the world's view. In fact I think it takes great courage and trust to submit to someone out of faith. I think God put these commands for men and women in the Bible because He knew and created our deepest human emotional needs. Women deep down want to be loved, so God commands husbands to love thier wifes and not be bitter with them even when they are emotional, overwhelmed, upset, pregnant, hormonal, etc.. God knows that women are highly emotionaly and when they are married , they need that love from the man in thier life. Men deep down want to be good enough or the best; competent if you will (the whole male ego thing). God knows that and so he commands wifes to submit to their husbands; build him up by seeking his advice, etc... Even secular relationship people will tell you that- John Gray "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus". Men and women were built to complement each other in every way. We do have definite roles, but the only way they work like God intended is if each does their role willingly and in total true love. That's what love is: putting someone else and their good above your own.

 

[Buskanaka]

exactly pictue Christ saying "You know what, your opinion doesn't merit, because I am the head of this house, it says so in the Bible, so get used to it".

Of course it's not Christlike, because that's nothing like how it is in the Bible. I never said anything like that, I think that is totally wrong. That view is the warped belief that the world has turned the word 'submit' into.
Marriage is a partnership, there shouldn't be a power gap, or sense of 1 person having more power. Ok, since you didn't seem to understand the concept I presented, here's an example: have you ever done a school project in a group? Just think about how hard it is to get everyone to agree on something, even when it's something as little as what type of font to use, or the wording of the heading! There needs to be a leader or spokesperson who can take the ideas generated and decide on a course of action, taking into account the feelings and preferences of every member of the group so that they will all be satisfied with the result. That I think is more like a marriage relationship than boss/worker, but it only works if both people willingly and happily accept their roles.

and mina, well said! you said everything I was trying to say!

 

[Snowhite]

If you look at the quote, you'll see I was responding to your mocking the idea I presented of the husband and wife yeilding to one another. I never said there should not be a leader.

 

[PrNcSsChRmNg91]

We do have definite roles, but the only way they work like God intended is if each does their role willingly and in total true love.

But I think in a marriage we shouldn't think about our 'roles'. A man shouldn't always remind himself 'I'm the leader of this marriage, the head of the household' and a woman shouldn't always remind herself 'I need to be submissive to my husband', that marriage is going to fail in no time.

Women deep down want to be loved, so God commands husbands to love thier wifes and not be bitter with them even when they are emotional, overwhelmed, upset, pregnant, hormonal, etc.. God knows that women are highly emotionaly and when they are married , they need that love from the man in thier life.

If I'm not mistaken men want to be loved as well deep down.

Men deep down want to be good enough or the best; competent if you will (the whole male ego thing).

So from what I'm understanding, men want to be the 'best' in the marriage, so therefore God made men to be the leaders so that they will be the 'best' or 'better' than the wife in the marriage? Please clear this statement up for me.

And me being a woman, and most of my friends being women, we are just as, if not more, competitive like men, and we too want to be the best. But when it comes to marriage, we want us and our husbands to be the best.

 

[mamaneenie]

But I think in a marriage we shouldn't think about our 'roles'. A man shouldn't always remind himself 'I'm the leader of this marriage, the head of the household' and a woman shouldn't always remind herself 'I need to be submissive to my husband', that marriage is going to fail in no time.

In real life, those who are relaxed in who God made them to be, don't go around thinking like that anyway.


If I'm not mistaken men want to be loved as well deep down.

Of course men want to be loved, but women need to hear it all the time, how many times have you heard guys say to their g/f, wife do you love me, tell me do you really love me?

Also, I have seen most guys (and again this is generalisation so forgive me) are usually more competitive.


So from what I'm understanding, men want to be the 'best' in the marriage, so therefore God made men to be the leaders so that they will be the 'best' or 'better' than the wife in the marriage? Please clear this statement up for me.

A man who really loves his wife will lay down his life for her if need be. Both men and women need to give their all for a marriage to work, but however way you look at it, it is my firm belief that generally speaking the guys have the harder part in it. Women just have to submit, the men have to love their wives as much as Christ loved the church. Believe me, when you find the guy that loves you as much as Christ loves the church, submission will be hard sometimes but it won't be a major issue.

And me being a woman, and most of my friends being women, we are just as, if not more, competitive like men, and we too want to be the best. But when it comes to marriage, we want us and our husbands to be the best

 

[PrNcSsChRmNg91]

Women just have to submit, the men have to love their wives as much as Christ loved the church.

So are you telling me that women just have to be submissive and that they don't have to love their husbands and that would be a perfect Biblical marriage God is preaching to us? Doesn't make sense for me. And when I marry, I'm sure that I'm gonna love my husband just like how Christ loved the Church. I would risk my life for him, just like he would do for me. And then on top of that I have to be submissive? Doesn't sound like I got an easy job....

 

[Snowhite]

1 Peter 5:5 says "Likewise you younger people, submit yourselves to your elders. Yes, all of you be submissive to one another, and be clothed with humility, for God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble"

Am I the only one that sees this? All Christians are to 'submit' to one another in Christ. This verse doesn't exclude men. It says 'all of you'. There are times when husbands ought to submit to their wives as well as wives to husbands. I know I'm stepping on male toes here, but the sooner we get over the generations of gender predudice the church is steeped in the better.

 

[BigToe2]

i agree

 

[mina]

I don't know how to do the quote thing so some of what I said is mixed in with your words. sorry.

But I think in a marriage we shouldn't think about our 'roles'. A man shouldn't always remind himself 'I'm the leader of this marriage, the head of the household' and a woman shouldn't always remind herself 'I need to be submissive to my husband', that marriage is going to fail in no time.



If I'm not mistaken men want to be loved as well deep down.



yes but in women it is their deepest emotional need.



So from what I'm understanding, men want to be the 'best' in the marriage, so therefore God made men to be the leaders so that they will be the 'best' or 'better' than the wife in the marriage? Please clear this statement up for me.


no, men want to be the best man they can be. They want to feel like they are doing the best job. Making thier wife the happiest. They don't want to be better than the woman. That is completely wrong. Men have an ego. This is important in their emotional well being. Their biggest fear is that they will be found less than good. This is not just in marriage but in every area. Like I said secular relationship experts also identify women's deepest need as love and men's as the need to be competent in all areas of life.

And me being a woman, and most of my friends being women, we are just as, if not more, competitive like men, and we too want to be the best. But when it comes to marriage, we want us and our husbands to be the best.

Again you are missing the point. women want to be the best too but that is not a woman's deepest emotional need. It is a man's. There are differences between men and women and that is ok. And differences do not make anyone less important or less good than each other. Anyways I'm not trying to argue with you and I hope you are not trying to pick a fight with me. Submission has to be willing and done with love. Marriage is not about "how much do I get out of this". Rather it should be "how much can I do for this other person". The Bible does not limit a woman to how much she can love, nor does it limit a man on submitting. But it does give specific commands to both men and women so that we can complement each other. The words of the Bible are meant to be a help, not a hinderance to a marriage. Again I think the illustration of Christ and the Father best exemplifies submission. Christ was not weak, He was not lazy, He was not afraid, and He was not less. But he sought the Father , listented to His guidance, etc. A woman submitting to her husband is no way forfiting her relationship and obedience to God. She is not depending on her husband to live her relationship with Christ. she has a responsibility to be growing in Christ. Anyways if you are dead set against submission it's going to be hard for you to see what I'm trying to say. I think submission is a beautiful thing. It's very sad that the world has perverted it's meaning so that people are almost ashamed of it.

 

[Buskanaka]

1 Peter 5:5 says "Likewise you younger people, submit yourselves to your elders. Yes, all of you be submissive to one another, and be clothed with humility, for God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble"

that quote is talking about submitting to each other as part of the body of Christ, not in a marriage relationship. But I don't agree that the husband should be submissive to the wife, listen yes, discuss things yes, lord it over the wife and force her to do everything he wants NO!

I know I'm stepping on male toes here, but the sooner we get over the generations of gender predudice the church is steeped in the better.

It's not about gender prejudice. men and women are different, we are mentally, emotionally and physically different, so we have different roles. The bible doesn't just say things because they sound pretty, it is telling us how to make things work the best.

 

[Snowhite]

that quote is talking about submitting to each other as part of the body of Christ, not in a marriage relationship.QUOTE]

Two married people who are Christians are part of the body of Christ. This verse is commanding all believers. I didn't suppose it would be popular, as it requires a man to defer to other Christans, possible even *gasp* women, in Christ.

 

[Buskanaka]

oh I don't mind deferring to anyone who is more knowledgable than me. I don't think feminism has done anything positive for relationships though.