Submitting to Husband, D/S?

[Judy02]

My husband and I practice submission, and my hubby very rarely will send me to bed, or tell me to be quiet etc. He does not hurt me, and everything he does is out of love etc. He does not spank me etc.
He is the head, boss, one in charge etc.

Am I the only one who finds this description extremely disturbing? I'm sorry, I don't mean to sound insensitive, but these ideas just sound a bit twisted and wrong.

I know you said your husband doesn't do most of the following things, but there seems to be almost an implication that its possible or acceptable to do these things.
'Sending someone to bed' 'spanking' etc

Since when is the wife described in the same way as a young child? And by doing so, if the couple have any kids, do u not think the children would pick up on this. If their father doesn't have any respect and treats their wife like a child, how can they expect their children to see their mother any differently?

A husband treating their wife like a child just sounds like a marital horror story, which would send me running for miles. Actually any male subscribing to the 'I'm the boss/leader, and ur meant to do everything I say' philosophy that's been perpetuated down the church throughout the centuries would send me running but thats a different story...

I just think, if thats how some christians view a marriage then...oh my.... I never knew it had come to this extreme.

 

[shaslove]

Am I the only one who finds this description extremely disturbing? I'm sorry, I don't mean to sound insensitive, but these ideas just sound a bit twisted and wrong.

I know you said your husband doesn't do most of the following things, but there seems to be almost an implication that its possible or acceptable to do these things.
'Sending someone to bed' 'spanking' etc

Since when is the wife described in the same way as a young child? And by doing so, if the couple have any kids, do u not think the children would pick up on this. If their father doesn't have any respect and treats their wife like a child, how can they expect their children to see their mother any differently?

A husband treating their wife like a child just sounds like a marital horror story, which would send me running for miles. Actually any male subscribing to the 'I'm the boss/leader, and ur meant to do everything I say' philosophy that's been perpetuated down the church throughout the centuries would send me running but thats a different story...

I just think, if thats how some christians view a marriage then...oh my.... I never knew it had come to this extreme.

i agree..submission isn't like that!

 

[KJVisTruth]

Am I the only one who finds this description extremely disturbing? I'm sorry, I don't mean to sound insensitive, but these ideas just sound a bit twisted and wrong.

I know you said your husband doesn't do most of the following things, but there seems to be almost an implication that its possible or acceptable to do these things.
'Sending someone to bed' 'spanking' etc

Since when is the wife described in the same way as a young child? And by doing so, if the couple have any kids, do u not think the children would pick up on this. If their father doesn't have any respect and treats their wife like a child, how can they expect their children to see their mother any differently?

A husband treating their wife like a child just sounds like a marital horror story, which would send me running for miles. Actually any male subscribing to the 'I'm the boss/leader, and ur meant to do everything I say' philosophy that's been perpetuated down the church throughout the centuries would send me running but thats a different story...

I just think, if thats how some christians view a marriage then...oh my.... I never knew it had come to this extreme.

Thats not what D/S is all about.

 

[Antje]

Saying your husband rarely sends you to bed really sounds like sometimes he does. I think that sounds bizarre and not at all respectful of you. You are being treated like a child, and that just sounds wrong. Spanking is all fine and good if it's a kinky game you both like to play, but you've made it sound like a punishment such as one would give a child. I'm with the others on this one: this does not sound healthy or normal.

 

[Judy02]

Saying your husband rarely sends you to bed really sounds like sometimes he does.

That's what I was thinking

I don't post here very often if some were wondering about my random appearence

Sorry I'm not trying to make any women feel worse here, I am actually just genuinely concerned. Some of the ideas I get to see on Marriage Ministry really do sound genuinely disturbing at times. I worry and wonder what kind of messages these people have been forced or fed with down the years.
It's enough to put someone off getting married for life, some christians don't make it sound even slightly attractive at all. And we're meant to be examples to non christians on successful relationships out there, I can honestly say I see secular marriages which sound a lot more healthy.

I pray for anyone suffering from abuse in marriage (man or woman) although from the posts I see on here sometimes, I'm often under the impression its the woman who gets it, where its almost encouraged to be that way in Christian circles. I don't see how anyone who loves another person would even want to be a 'boss' in a marriage. The desire wouldn't even be there. The idea would be absolutely detestable to him. That's partly why some people's consciences ring alarm bells when we again hear all these traditional, boss, and subordinated person ideas in a marriage. Yeah rating other people, and instructing one person to be dominant over another really sounds christian.

I'm sure other people will disagree, but whatever. It's never convinced me as a good idea whatsoever and doubt it ever will

After studying the scriptures and the issue further and with a huge amount of prayer over the years, I'm even less convinced. If that's the way it did actually work....then no marriage for me thanks! It sounds a lot more of a blessed and dignified situation to just remain single.

 

[Judy02]

Oops, double post sorry. It was a slow moment on CF!

 

[Rebekka]

Judy, I agree with you, and I'm married!

My husband and I are equals in every respect, and see Paul's remark as something that was typical for that time. You can be happily married and have a christian marriage without the unequal submission. If there is any submission in our marriage, it is mutual, as is the love. Women should love their husbands, even though Paul didn't say they should.

I'm not condemning anyone who practices submission in their marriage - if someone chooses to do this out of her own free will, then that's fine with me. But I'm not going to do it myself.

 

[KJVisTruth]

This thread is about D/S, which is a lifestyle for some and a "bedroom-only" type of situation for others. For people who are REALLY familiar with it, I saw that they do indeed see the similiarities between biblical submission and D/S.

"Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self control." 1 Cor. 7:3-5

D/S has to be mutual, no one is ever forced into practicing this, in order for it to be truly pleasurable. It is also unique for everyone, individually, whoever is practicing it, in the ways of loving and submitting and more. You are welcome to PM me with questions, I emphasize, questions. I personally find it biblical, only as long as it doesnt turn into sadism (extreme forms of BDSM) and/or abuse.

God bless you. =)

 

[bliz]

I always thought of it as the bible saying that somebody has to be in charge and be the final SAY SO on matters concerning the family. Not that a wife does not have a say because she does and should always be taken into consideration and her opinion weighed.

Where does the Bible say this? I am quite confident that you have heard teachers and preachers say this, but where does the Bible say this? Where does the Bible say that in a partnership of two people, one of those two has to be the one in charge?

But it is the head of household, the husband, according to the bible who is supposed to be the spiritual leader and it is his resposibility to see if the matter being discussed is in agreement to what the bible says. And after compareing the issue to the bible it is his resposibility to say this is it, matter closed. Thus the wife submitting to her husbands decision.

Again, where does the Bible say that the husband is to be the spiritual leader of the wife? Yes, I know, everyone says that, but where does the Bible say that?

Is the husband's understanding of the Bible always perfect? Does Christian wife have the Holy Spirit within her, guiding her? Or are wives some special catagory of Christian who need a mediator between themselves and God?

The same applies to us with Christ. The bible says this is the way you handle this situation and we are to follow the Word of God spoken to us in the bible. We may not always like it but we submit to God and at the same time put our faith and trust in Him to lead us and guide us in matters that we need help with.

Just so. Now then, what do you do with Ephesians 5:21 where all Christians are instructed to submit to all other Christians in order to bring glory to God? Do you submit to your wife even when you don't like it - or is that only something for wives to do? Does that verse only aply to wives? Are husbands exempt from that verse? Does your translation have an * that explains this does not apply to people married to each other?

 

[bliz]

Bibethumpa -

I appreciate your sharing your personal experiences. However, your logic boils down to:

Most women who have approached me sexually have done so in a passive way; therefore it is natural for all women to approach all men sexually in passive ways. Your argument simply does not hold together. You yourself have said "most", which means not all, and yet you wish to make your experience with some women normative for all men and women.

You refer to Genesis 3:16 as part of your argument. This was part of the curse becasue of the sin of Adam and Eve. Does God intend for us to all to continue live under the curse? If so, I must ask you how your crops performed this year, becasue another part of the curse is that men will sweat to produce food from the ground. If we follow your logic, you are not living according to God's plan if you do not farm.

All women do not like to be restrained during sex. All women do not feel guilty about sex or feel guilty for enjoying it. And, even if a woman does like to be restrained during sex, that does not indicate that she would rather have some man take care of all aspects of her life. Some men like to be restrained during sex. Does that mean that all men wish to abdicate the responsibility for their lives to someone else? I don't think so.

 

[biblethumpa]

Goodness! I had no idea that I had the power to make anything normative for anybody! The OP asked if anyone had noticed any comparisons or parallels between submission to Christ and submitting in D/s. I answered that I did and gave examples. I had no intention of offending anyone or presuming to prescribe any manner of living for anybody. I'm sorry that you took offence; my humble apologies. I have enough trouble trying to run my own life, much less my wifes' or anyone elses, and without GOD's management of my life and His love and grace and mercy and my submission to that management, I'd be in the ground already.

My reference to Genesis 3:16 is a statement of Biblical fact; We DO live under the curse. If we did not, then the wonderful sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ would not have been necessary. All of Chrisitanity hinges around the fact that Adam sinned, and that even if we could possibly live totally sinless lives, we would still therefore need the redemption and grace and forgiveness of the Lord Jesus Christ to regain the relationship that was intended for us with and by our GOD as HE created us.

I think I also mentioned that my wife has said that she will never submit to any man. I have never cracked a whip or issued an order in our house, including our bedroom, and I doubt that I ever will. The part of Ephesians that most people seem to miss, right after "Husbands, love your wives", is "even as Christ loved the church, and gave himself for it." If it comes down to a new dress for her, or a new part for my bike, she gets the dress. If I have a choice between going shooting with the boys and painting the porch, well, what color would you like it, dear? There's that "giving himself for it" part. My wife rarely asks me to do anything around the house, because I can see what needs to be done, and try my best to do it, partly because getting those things done means that I have created more free time for her, which she may or may not choose to spend with me. I do laundry, cook meals, clean toilets and dust tv's and bookshelves right beside her, because we are a team, her and GOD and I. Notice that the "I" comes after everybody else? It's a command.

Sexually, she reaches for me more often than I reach for her. Her desire is definitely for her husband, and I do whatever I can to take care of that. After she makes her interest known, though, I go to work. Most of the action involved is on my part. She usually lies back and enjoys whatever it is that I'm doing to please her. She receives and I give, and give, and give some more until she is well satisfied, and my pleasure is found in her joy and happiness. In fact, most of the enjoyment I find in our relations is in seeing her pleasure. It's an affirmation that I'm doing the right things, and taking care of her as she needs. Even if I'm too tired from too many 20 hour days and not enough to eat, I'd still rather take care of her need that catch up on my sleep, because this is one way that I can show her how much I love her. There's that "giving himself" thing again. Every time I mention tieing her up and having my way with her, she gets a little flush and a giggle, which would never happen if she thought that I would do something that she would not thoroughly enjoy. She likes to submit, and I like to take charge. If she liked tieing me up or telling me what to do, I'm sure we'd be doing a lot more of that, because I love her, and would never dream of denying her any sexual pleasure that is in my power to give, save those acts which are specifically forbidden in scripture.

I really am sorry if I have offended you, and hope that you will accept my apologies. I thought we were discussing parallel and comparative concepts here, not dictating edicts regarding lifestyle. May GOD bless you and keep you, now and always.

 

[biblethumpa]

It is also my understanding that all of the first part of Ephesians chapter 5, through verse 21, is aimed at general Christian conduct within the community or congregation, not the marriage, and that those verses following 5:21 are given in regard to conduct within a marriage. The commands given after 5:21 would not make much sense if applied to the community in general, (all husbands loving all wives, or all wives submitting to all husbands) and while those before that certainly make sense in a marriage, they seem to be aimed at the population at large instead of the household specifically. Peace.

 

[KJVisTruth]

Biblethumpa, you thought correct to discuss the similiarities, as to the OP and I rather enjoyed your insights. As far as I am concerned, you did not offend anyone, nor were your posts offensive!

 

[KJVisTruth]

Also, a Christian woman who says she is a submissive wife should never be confused with the sub in a d/s relationship.

I agree, although I have wondered that if one is already a submissive wife, she might already be in a D/s relationship. If one submits, does it HAVE to stop in the bedroom? I think, not necessarily, but definitely not required, for the marriage bed is undefiled.

 

[bliz]

Biblethumpa -

I was not offended any way. I simply do not agree with you on this subject.

It is also my understanding that all of the first part of Ephesians chapter 5, through verse 21, is aimed at general Christian conduct within the community or congregation, not the marriage, and that those verses following 5:21 are given in regard to conduct within a marriage. The commands given after 5:21 would not make much sense if applied to the community in general, (all husbands loving all wives, or all wives submitting to all husbands) and while those before that certainly make sense in a marriage, they seem to be aimed at the population at large instead of the household specifically.

Many people do read Ephesians 5 that way. I don't. I think that verse 21 is the beginning of the second part of the chapter (bearing in mind that divisions like chapters and verses were added later) rather than a summerizing verse for the first part of the chapter.

I see the outline for the chapter(s) - the thread really begins in Chapter 4 - something like this:

Body life - how we should conduct ourselves as we mature in Christ and specifics on how Christians are to interact with one another (4 - 5:20)

how all Christians are to interact (21)
husbands and wives (22 - 33)
children and parents (6:1-4)
slaves and masters (5 - 9)

The commands given after 5:21 would not make much sense if applied to the community in general, (all husbands loving all wives, or all wives submitting to all husbands) and while those before that certainly make sense in a marriage, they seem to be aimed at the population at large instead of the household specifically.

Are you saying that commands given to the population at large do not apply to the relationship between a husband and wife? My husband should submit to other CHristians in our community but not to me?

 

[biblethumpa]

no, basically that you don't need to submit to someone elses husband in the same way that you submit to your own husband, and somebody elses wife doesn't need to submit to your husband the way that they do to their own. I hope you have a good weekend.

 

[Johnnz]

My reference to Genesis 3:16 is a statement of Biblical fact; We DO live under the curse. If we did not, then the wonderful sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ would not have been necessary. All of Chrisitanity hinges around the fact that Adam sinned, and that even if we could possibly live totally sinless lives, we would still therefore need the redemption and grace and forgiveness of the Lord Jesus Christ to regain the relationship that was intended for us with and by our GOD as HE created us..

Are you suggesting that the curse upon manking was untouched by Christ? If you are I trust that you follow it strictly and are a vegetarian who shuns labour saving devices. Such is man's lot under that curse.

John
NZ

 

[Judy02]

I agree that it is up to Christians to help to live and aim to live in a way that redeems us from the curse, not to concentrate on a fallen state.

And anyway, I fail to see how woman being ruled over by man would be beneficial (at all anyway) but judging from the genesis story.

Adam was just plain disobedient. Eve may have been deceived, Adam ate the fruit in full knowledge he was not supposed to, and did the first thing someone else suggested. Doesn't sound like a great leader to me.

And yes we're not slaves to the sins of Adam and Eve, God helps to free us from that. It is our task to work our way up to the way we were meant to be originally. We're created anew through Christ, the old has gone and the new has come. It is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me. There are numerous quotes probably listed by Paul which seems to clearly say the death of Christ freed us from the curse, and how we are to concentrate on living a new relationship with him, not focusing on the past and the curse. Our true identity is in Christ, not in Adam and Eve. There is no sin God cannot redeem us from. Obviously it won't be achieved fully until Christ returns, but its the job of Christians to speed up that process and mend a broken world.
It's true that people don't look at the whole outline that God listed as part of the sorry state of the world, and the curses laid upon it.

People see one thing in the reference to women and think, oh yes, another way to put women down, lets go for it!I mean, why ruin a great tradition the church has had eh?

 

[inGodsfootsteps]

Whether just in the bedroom or in the complete relationship, ("lifestyle" as some like to call it) the foundation for d/s relationships is always sexual, including physical discipline, and not spiritual, no matter how many Bible verses are tossed about.

Been a while since i posted here but this thread caught my eye. Kudos to the person who posted it, it has been a long time i have been waiting for a thread like this.

What i quoted above is in some cases true and in alot of cases not true at all. I have been researching this area for many years especially the D/s BDSM side of things and i have come to several conclusions.

First of all i don't see why we take such worldly views on things. "Be in the world but not of the world" we are taught. So why is it with this teaching being our watchword almost that we still have such worldly views? Having been exploring this area and researching it i find that as someone else posted D/s relationships no matter how tame or extreme are always loving. Abuse is a relativistic word in this case. If you enjoy something and it is not against God's words or laws or teachings and is indeed safe, why should we have a problem with it? If two couples love each other but are into pain, and dare i say it, bondage, then that is no ones business of there own.

Now i have never been married and i have never physically explored this kind of relationship, but my SO (the woman i intend to marry) and i have discussed many of the aspects of this and the links between christian submission and this type of submission are very interesting. This type of submission and obedience resonates with me, as someone puts it and it also resonates with my girlfriend.

Now i'm not looking to offend anyone, so please forgive me if i do. However so called "abusive relationships" in this instance is an incorrect way to put it. An "abusive relationship" as an outsider might term it, is nothing more then the way the couple enjoys their sex. Sorry to be blunt but sometimes it is necessary. I am not in anyway shape or form condoning actual abusive relationships, but a BDSM relationship is just as viable, and sometimes more so then what is coined a vanilla relationship,

I disagree vehemently that the lifestyle whether bedroom or not is built on a sexual foundation. If two Godly people love each other and choose to have this kind of relationship it is not based on sex. It is based on love, and not the physical kind. Besides, what's wrong with a little sex whether "vanilla" or BDSM, if you are married?

Now you may wonder why anyone would want to live a lifestyle like this? Well in my own opinion, i think that D/s is a very Godly kind of relationship to be in. I am not having a go at anyone in a "vanilla" relationship, this is just my own ramblings. I guess i personally am very literal in regards to the women submit to your husbands bit. If it's not your cup of tea that is fine. However reading about God telling wives to submit to husbands and husbands to love their wives as Christ loves the church really got me thinking. Now as i said at the moment this is all theoretical but, i can see many benefits personally. There is nothing wrong with someone wanting someone else to control them unless it is not mutual. Control again is a very humanistic ideal, i could ramble on and on about it, but it all boils down to this, again in my opinion. If my wife (when i have one) wants to submit to me in a D/s way then i would be more then happy. If she needs that and i can provide it then i will, because that is how she wants to be loved and as long as i am always subservient to God and have my wife's best interests at heart then i personally see no problem with it

My last word is one of warning, if you have never investigated this for yourself and have no idea what you are talking about, then please, think hard before you post.

 

[KJVisTruth]

InGodsfootsteps, great post!