Submission.

[Root of Jesse]

God speaks through men, always has.
If man won't hear/speak, He'll speak through a donkey.

That doesn't mean we speak for him...

 

[Root of Jesse]

Hi,
You are so right in your observations. I and others have spoken words, even we had to recall later, as they were never our words, but Words of God, spoken by The Holy Spirit. ~In my particular case, some of those words once, were from God The Father. I spoke those. In that same case, some of the words to that man, were from Jesus The Christ, The Messiah. I spoke those words to that man also.~ This is so common within in Protestant Chrisitianity. I am even a Catholic, and I know of others like me. Others who God used and uses on occasion to speak to others, of His Own Words, to that person or that group.~
Sorry to butt in Sunlover1, I thought you should have someone else telling them that you are right.
LOVE,
...Katie., .... .

God speaking through us is different than us speaking for God, no? Only some are given that charism.

 

[Root of Jesse]

And thus not the RC one. Or the EOC one or the LDS one or the JW one or the WELS one or the UPC one. So the CLAIM of any of these denomination for itself of what Jesus said to itself is.... we agree, not so.




A blessed Holy Week to you and yours.....

Right. the "RC" is not a denomination. It is His Church though, which is not the same thing. You can go have your denominations, walls and separations. I'll stand with the Catholic Church.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Seems to matter a great deal to Coffee, and I was answering his question.
I am a truth monger.
We can't just say what we "think" to be true, when it comes to the Bible.
Opinions are like noses
In truth, the word Apostle means one who is sent.
Those apostles were sent out..
That's not ALL we know about apostles, indeed it is part.
It was from strongs and other language sources, they all agree.
just something for us to keep in mind

You're right, we should never say what we think to be true when it comes to the Bible. That's why we submit to authority to help us understand the canonical meaning. But Scripture can speak to us different ways at different times. Personal meaning.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Well that word is missing in the greek word tools/concordances:

Strong's Greek: 4243. ???????? (presbeuó) -- to be the elder, to take precedence

Fact is, we all have authority and we're all called to go and make disciples
of all men, we're all called to heal the sick and speak words of life over God's
people, we're all called to forgive sin and we're all called to bind and loose.
We ALL have the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead and so that same power
is available to all of us.
I realize that you may have a different understanding.

Try "the word study dictionary"

πρεσβεύω

presbeúō; fut. presbeúsō, from présbus (n.f.), an aged person, elder, also an ambassador. To be aged, elderly. In the NT, to be or act as an ambassador. Intrans. (2Co 5:20; Eph 6:20). Also from présbus (n.f.): presbútēs (G4246), an old man.​

The passage is about saint Paul's role as messenger of God.

Now then we [bishops] are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you [the faithful] by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.​

For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak. (Ephesians 6:20)

 

[sunlover1]

That doesn't mean we speak for him...

Prophets don't speak for God?
Okay, however you see it is fine.

God speaking through us is different than us speaking for God, no? Only some are given that charism.

Prophets?

You're right, we should never say what we think to be true when it comes to the Bible. That's why we submit to authority to help us understand the canonical meaning. But Scripture can speak to us different ways at different times. Personal meaning.

I submit to God to help me understand His words.
And yes, He indeed can use His word to say one thing one time and then
reveal more another time using the same passages!
Amazing!

 

[pilgrimage]

I really hate how some try to sell their earthly churches instead of Christ.

 

[katerinah1947]

God speaking through us is different than us speaking for God, no? Only some are given that charism.

Hi,
~Sometimes it is not~ and yes only some are given that, if I understand your word charism.
Now, why would God speak through others? If you know tell me. If you don't, and I still come back here, I will tell you. Please don't read the P.S. until you think on this. I will post the reason why in that P.S. immediately below, my sign off.
LOVE,
...Katerina., .... .
P.S. It is to help others out, not the person doing the work, either God nor the person God is using to say words or things, or even to seeminly speak for God, rather it is always for the person, usually that, or the group God wished to help.
LOVE,
...Katherina., .... .

 

[Root of Jesse]

Prophets don't speak for God?
Okay, however you see it is fine.


Prophets?


I submit to God to help me understand His words.
And yes, He indeed can use His word to say one thing one time and then
reveal more another time using the same passages!
Amazing!

Prophets did. But public prophecy is closed.

 

[sunlover1]

Prophets did. But public prophecy is closed.

I disagree.
As Katerinah said, prophecy is for the man to whom God is speaking.

 

[katerinah1947]

I really hate how some try to sell their earthly churches instead of Christ.

Hi,
What do you mean here, churches, or bodies that human's live in. Orginally I thought you mean denominations, and yes it is horrible how rather than selling Jesus, or the more expansive and complete idea, selling God is not done, in some churches or groups, ~and I grieve both with and for them~. I think you meant denominations as anyone, like me, merely works for God, and God in turn helps you and others out, through people like me, along with all the wonderful things that are true, within denominatons.
One if the most wonderful things God ever caused to happen, is for the words He spoke when gradually again revealing Himself to all of us after the fall of Adam, for those words to have been put into books everntually, by the church as you probably call it.
That book is Supreme on this earth, not only that, but God seems to be in there, in a way which is felt by all those looking for Him. God is actually in there, in a way. In some semblance of understanding, that is God, for that book, is True, where 'it' says 'it' is true, and 'it' is false where 'it' says 'it' is false. That book is like a person almost. 'It' talks, and all that 'it' says is true, is true. Even the parts that are false, 'it' The Bible says they are false. So 'it' the Bible is true in all ways, even where it tells you that what 'it' is going to say here and there, That information has errors or out and out lies. Two very specific warnings it puts in there is, The Devil lies, or always lies. The other is two of Job's freinds did not speak correctly about God, while the third friend did. The third friend it is implied or said, was actually right about God there, and God was soon going to show Job one of his errors. It was the error pointed out by that third man.
So although I do not understand how you meant your words, I hope your answer is here somewhere.
LOVE,
...Katherina., .... .

 

[katerinah1947]

Prophets did. But public prophecy is closed.

Hi,
When did God, if you know, close Public Prophecy to Himself? Rather you are thinking of the way ~God works on any subject he wants to be known.~ First He gives much information, then slowly the tools and the mesages decline. ~Even in all I do, that is the same. And yes it is hurtful, because all things of God are beautiful, to slowly give up on things not needed anymore.~
Whey your God, has me do anything for or with Him for others, what accompanies that and who accompanies that, and the signs and wonders that accompany that, are so wonderful and amazing, that when it is all over, it is so crushing, that God gets involved in people like me, to slowly remove this or that tool. It is also because when I or others work for God, we never know what God has put into us, for You.
Yes, sometimes God puts things into a person, for a single person like you only. For instance, and this is gone now. ~For on single woman, who God wants to let know that He is Real, in a way that she will believe and know, weeks passed as God prepped his tool of choice for this.~
~First God started sitting next to this person at church. He had never done that to this person before. Then in that tool for God, He changed the pattern, after a few weeks. It took that long for the person to get used to all God was doing, each and every church service there. Weeks or days passed, then after the service God did something to that tool.~
~30 minutes or so, after the Mass was over, The Holy Spirit unseen and unfelt, yet acting, has this tool of God standing before a small group of people. The tool did and said what the tool was supposed to say.~
~Yet, just before departing, the tool, looked around to see if she could figure out why God had her do this. She looked, and found one woman's face, and knew it was for her.~
Years passed, God intervened in that one woman's life at least three times total, and now she knew God was Real, somehow. Her religious life changed immensely. The tool watched.
One day, the tool, had all those things that God had put intor her, removed in an instant, and she was reminded totally of what she is, apart from God and apart from those tools. She often confused the tools with her own goodness. It is not her that is good, those tools are not her either, even when she is done being a tool for God, using those tools.
Because she is me, and I am her, that tool God uses from time to time, I know precisely in a vision no less, just how worthless I am compared to God. It, I, am ugly what I see. It, I, am actually evil in my own eyes. It, I, whom God, your God does not agree with my self assesments of not being worthy of Him, reminds me from time to time, of how it will all work out anyway, and not to use my own judgements and observations of me, not matter how accurate, my observations of me are.
Is this not a form of prophecy? The tools fade, for a subject. Prophecy as you call it, is not over, it has never been over it seems.
LOVE,
...Katherina., .... .

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

I'll stand with the Catholic Church.

A denomination never so much as even mentioned in Scripture or by Christ or by any Apostle. Not ever. Not at all. Not once. Not for anything. Not about anything. Not concerning anything. Never promised anything. Never authorized for anything. Never given anything. Never exempted from anything. Just like every other denomination.

What it itself demands for it itself - substituting itself for God - is just what it itself demands for it itself.



A blessed Holy Week to you and yours....


- Josiah

 

[Root of Jesse]

Hi,
When did God, if you know, close Public Prophecy to Himself? Rather you are thinking of the way ~God works on any subject he wants to be known.~ First He gives much information, then slowly the tools and the mesages decline. ~Even in all I do, that is the same. And yes it is hurtful, because all things of God are beautiful, to slowly give up on things not needed anymore.~
Whey your God, has me do anything for or with Him for others, what accompanies that and who accompanies that, and the signs and wonders that accompany that, are so wonderful and amazing, that when it is all over, it is so crushing, that God gets involved in people like me, to slowly remove this or that tool. It is also because when I or others work for God, we never know what God has put into us, for You.
Yes, sometimes God puts things into a person, for a single person like you only. For instance, and this is gone now. ~For on single woman, who God wants to let know that He is Real, in a way that she will believe and know, weeks passed as God prepped his tool of choice for this.~
~First God started sitting next to this person at church. He had never done that to this person before. Then in that tool for God, He changed the pattern, after a few weeks. It took that long for the person to get used to all God was doing, each and every church service there. Weeks or days passed, then after the service God did something to that tool.~
~30 minutes or so, after the Mass was over, The Holy Spirit unseen and unfelt, yet acting, has this tool of God standing before a small group of people. The tool did and said what the tool was supposed to say.~
~Yet, just before departing, the tool, looked around to see if she could figure out why God had her do this. She looked, and found one woman's face, and knew it was for her.~
Years passed, God intervened in that one woman's life at least three times total, and now she knew God was Real, somehow. Her religious life changed immensely. The tool watched.
One day, the tool, had all those things that God had put intor her, removed in an instant, and she was reminded totally of what she is, apart from God and apart from those tools. She often confused the tools with her own goodness. It is not her that is good, those tools are not her either, even when she is done being a tool for God, using those tools.
Because she is me, and I am her, that tool God uses from time to time, I know precisely in a vision no less, just how worthless I am compared to God. It, I, am ugly what I see. It, I, am actually evil in my own eyes. It, I, whom God, your God does not agree with my self assesments of not being worthy of Him, reminds me from time to time, of how it will all work out anyway, and not to use my own judgements and observations of me, not matter how accurate, my observations of me are.
Is this not a form of prophecy? The tools fade, for a subject. Prophecy as you call it, is not over, it has never been over it seems.
LOVE,
...Katherina., .... .

There is a huge difference between private revelation/prophecy, and public revelation/prophecy. Hence, the Church does not require for us to believe what happened at Fatima, Portugal or Medugorje, or Lourdes. Public revelation/prophecy ended when Christ died.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I disagree.
As Katerinah said, prophecy is for the man to whom God is speaking.

That's private, not necessary for others to believe. Public prophecy was closed with the death of Jesus.
As I said to Katerinah, this is why we are not required to believe what was taught to St. Faustina, or to Margaret Mary Alacoque, or St. Jerome, or Juan Diego. We are required only to believe what Jesus and those who preceded Him taught us.

 

[sunlover1]

That's private, not necessary for others to believe. Public prophecy was closed with the death of Jesus.
As I said to Katerinah, this is why we are not required to believe what was taught to St. Faustina, or to Margaret Mary Alacoque, or St. Jerome, or Juan Diego. We are required only to believe what Jesus and those who preceded Him taught us.

Where did you get this teaching?
Is it out of thin air, a teaching of your church or something you read in the Bible?
And what do you mean by "those who preceded Him"?

 

[MoreCoffee]

I disagree.
As Katerinah said, prophecy is for the man to whom God is speaking.

Public prophecy is for all. Private revelation is not for all, it is for the one who receives it and for those who choose to trust the one to whom it was given and so choose to believe the message.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Where did you get this teaching?
Is it out of thin air, a teaching of your church or something you read in the Bible?
And what do you mean by "those who preceded Him"?

It is Catholic teaching. Those who preceded Him on Earth were the prophets up to and including John the Baptist.

 

[katerinah1947]

You're right, we should never say what we think to be true when it comes to the Bible. That's why we submit to authority to help us understand the canonical meaning. But Scripture can speak to us different ways at different times. Personal meaning.

Hi,

And yet at times, their authority is so confusing, that in 1616 or so they piblished this:
On February 19, 1616, the Inquisition asked a commission of theologians, known as qualifiers, about the propositions of the heliocentric view of the universe.[31] Historians of the Galileo affair have offered different accounts of why the matter was referred to the qualifiers at this time. Beretta points out that the Inquisition had taken a deposition from Gianozzi Attavanti in November, 1615,[32] as part of its investigation into the denunciations of Galileo by Lorini and Caccini. In this deposition, Attavanti confirmed that Galileo had advocated the Copernican doctrines of a stationary Sun and a mobile Earth, and as a consequence the Tribunal of the Inquisition would have eventually needed to determine the theological status of those doctrines. It is however possible, as surmised by the Tuscan ambassador, Piero Guiccardini, in a letter to the Grand Duke,[33] that the actual referral may have been precipitated by Galileo's aggressive campaign to prevent the condemnation of Copernicanism.[34]

On February 24 the Qualifiers delivered their unanimous report: the idea that the Sun is stationary is "foolish and absurd in philosophy, and formally heretical since it explicitly contradicts in many places the sense of Holy Scripture..."; while the Earth's movement "receives the same judgement in philosophy and ... in regard to theological truth it is at least erroneous in faith."[35] The original report document was made widely available in 2014.[36]

At a meeting of the cardinals of the Inquisition on the following day, Pope Paul V instructed Bellarmine to deliver this result to Galileo, and to order him to abandon the Copernican opinions; should Galileo resist the decree, stronger action would be taken. On February 26, Galileo was called to Bellarmine's residence and ordered,

to abstain completely from teaching or defending this doctrine and opinion or from discussing it... to abandon completely... the opinion that the sun stands still at the center of the world and the earth moves, and henceforth not to hold, teach, or defend it in any way whatever, either orally or in writing.

—The Inquisition's injunction against Galileo, 1616.[3]

And before that, they published this:
...to check unbridled spirits, [the Holy Council] decrees that no one relying on his own judgement shall, in matters of faith and morals pertaining to the edification of Christian doctrine, distorting the Scriptures in accordance with his own conceptions, presume to interpret them contrary to that sense which the holy mother Church... has held or holds...

—Decree of the Council of Trent (1545–1563). Quoted in Langford, 1992.[22]

So which is it? Is the church always right, in matters of faith and morals, or did they make an error, as is seeminly said, here.
LOVE,
...Katherina., .... .

 

[MoreCoffee]

Hi,

And yet at times, their authority is so confusing, that in 1616 or so they piblished this:
On February 19, 1616, the Inquisition asked a commission of theologians, known as qualifiers, about the propositions of the heliocentric view of the universe.[31] Historians of the Galileo affair have offered different accounts of why the matter was referred to the qualifiers at this time. Beretta points out that the Inquisition had taken a deposition from Gianozzi Attavanti in November, 1615,[32] as part of its investigation into the denunciations of Galileo by Lorini and Caccini. In this deposition, Attavanti confirmed that Galileo had advocated the Copernican doctrines of a stationary Sun and a mobile Earth, and as a consequence the Tribunal of the Inquisition would have eventually needed to determine the theological status of those doctrines. It is however possible, as surmised by the Tuscan ambassador, Piero Guiccardini, in a letter to the Grand Duke,[33] that the actual referral may have been precipitated by Galileo's aggressive campaign to prevent the condemnation of Copernicanism.[34]

On February 24 the Qualifiers delivered their unanimous report: the idea that the Sun is stationary is "foolish and absurd in philosophy, and formally heretical since it explicitly contradicts in many places the sense of Holy Scripture..."; while the Earth's movement "receives the same judgement in philosophy and ... in regard to theological truth it is at least erroneous in faith."[35] The original report document was made widely available in 2014.[36]

At a meeting of the cardinals of the Inquisition on the following day, Pope Paul V instructed Bellarmine to deliver this result to Galileo, and to order him to abandon the Copernican opinions; should Galileo resist the decree, stronger action would be taken. On February 26, Galileo was called to Bellarmine's residence and ordered,

to abstain completely from teaching or defending this doctrine and opinion or from discussing it... to abandon completely... the opinion that the sun stands still at the center of the world and the earth moves, and henceforth not to hold, teach, or defend it in any way whatever, either orally or in writing.

—The Inquisition's injunction against Galileo, 1616.[3]

And before that, they published this:
...to check unbridled spirits, [the Holy Council] decrees that no one relying on his own judgement shall, in matters of faith and morals pertaining to the edification of Christian doctrine, distorting the Scriptures in accordance with his own conceptions, presume to interpret them contrary to that sense which the holy mother Church... has held or holds...

—Decree of the Council of Trent (1545–1563). Quoted in Langford, 1992.[22]

So which is it? Is the church always right, in matters of faith and morals, or did they make an error, as is seeminly said, here.

LOVE,
...Katherina., .... .

Seems to me that the decisions of a church court are very far removed from an excathedra pronouncement of infallible truth. Perhaps it is not the church that makes mistakes as much as it is the people within her and that includes church courts which do not have any promise of infallibility.