Submission.

[MoreCoffee]

Makes sense to me.
Not all are apostles.

I am glad you see it that way. This is the reason why I said that not all christians are ambassadors and that verses 20 and 21 are not describing all christians.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

PERHAPS.... but never any denomination (existing then or now).... and never in this dictator fashion being herein defended.


And remember - over and over and over - Jesus warned us about those who teach falsely. Over and over we are told to "test" teachers. And never - not once, not ever - is it stated that if a denomination exempts it itself from accountability, ergo that one is so exempted.

You might wonder if the singular, specific, particular, unique, individual RC Denomination is - in perpetuity - His mouth, His exempt One - you might think He would have at least MENTIONED it..... at least in passing..... at least once...... unless Jesus was ignorant of its existence and claims OR didn't exempt it. Just something to think about..... Especially in light of Him quoting Scripture and pointing to it authoritatively some 50 times but not once, not ever, not a bit even so much as MENTIONING the RCC - at all, ever, not once....



A blessed Holy Week to all....


- Josiah

We agree, Jesus didn't create any denominations...

And thus not the RC one. Or the EOC one or the LDS one or the JW one or the WELS one or the UPC one. So the CLAIM of any of these denomination for itself of what Jesus said to itself is.... we agree, not so.




A blessed Holy Week to you and yours.....

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Not every Christian is an apostle so not every Christian fulfils the role that saint Paul is describing.

No denomination is one of the 12-14 Apostles, either. They are all specifically named - and you won't find listed among them: "The Roman Catholic Church" or "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" or "The Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod." Nor will you find Pope Francis or Jim Jones or Billy Graham listed among them, either. Check out the list. Read it.




.

 

[Rick Otto]

...no matter what you think.

lol, c'mon. Lighten up.

 

[MoreCoffee]

No denomination is one of the 12-14 Apostles, either. They are all specifically named - and you won't find listed among them: "The Roman Catholic Church" or "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" or "The Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod." Nor will you find Pope Francis or Jim Jones or Billy Graham listed among them, either. Check out the list. Read it.

Does the above mean that apostolic succession does not exist?

 

[Rick Otto]

Does the above mean that apostolic succession does not exist?

Depends to a degree how one defines it.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Depends to a degree how one defines it.

I asked because CaliforniaJosiah's affiliation is to a denomination that appears to accept and teach apostolic succession and I wanted clarification of the the intent of his post.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

No denomination is one of the 12-14 Apostles, either. They are all specifically named - and you won't find listed among them: "The Roman Catholic Church" or "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" or "The Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod." Nor will you find Pope Francis or Jim Jones or Billy Graham listed among them, either. Check out the list. Read it.

Does the above mean that apostolic succession does not exist?

It means your point about APOSTLES applies to APOSTLES. Their names are all in the Bible, listed there. You can read it for yourself. And notice that one of them did NOT have the name, "The Roman Catholic Denomination." Your point doesn't apply to the RCC. Or LDS. Or WELS. Or UPC. Or UCC. Nor to Jim Jones or Martin Luther or Pope Frances. Check the list of the Apostles in the Bible.


.

 

[MoreCoffee]

It means your point about APOSTLES applies to APOSTLES. Their names are all in the Bible, listed there. You can read it for yourself. And notice that one of them did NOT have the name, "The Roman Catholic Denomination." Your point doesn't apply to the RCC. Or LDS. Or WELS. Or UPC. Or UCC. Nor to Jim Jones or Martin Luther or Pope Frances. Check the list of the Apostles in the Bible.

There are numerous passages in the gospel accounts that are addressed to the apostles and not to anybody else by name. Is the principle you've enunciated above intended to apply to all such passages or is it applicable only to those passages that yield views, when the principle of apostolic succession is applied, with which you are not in agreement?

 

[katerinah1947]

Hi Katie.
I know what you mean!
I've said things that there was no way I could have known..
Like it was God speaking through me.
I have attended Catholic church a few times this past year.

Hi Sunlover1,
I have seen this in your words online, your words. What you say and how you say things, seems entirely connected to God sometimes. No one talks like you do, unless they have a God connection, and dear, God makes that connection, not you. You are therefore blessed.
LOVE,
...Katherina., .... .

 

[sunlover1]

I am glad you see it that way. This is the reason why I said that not all christians are ambassadors and that verses 20 and 21 are not describing all christians.

I said I'm not an apostle.
That's all, I am an embassador, as are all Christians,
whos citizenship is in Heaven.
Apostle mean's one sent i believe.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I said I'm not an apostle.
That's all, I am an embassador, as are all Christians,
whos citizenship is in Heaven.
Apostle mean's one sent i believe.

Ambassadors are sent too, are they not?

 

[katerinah1947]

I said I'm not an apostle.
That's all, I am an embassador, as are all Christians,
whos citizenship is in Heaven.
Apostle mean's one sent i believe.

Hi,
And who gets to define Apostles. Consider this:

According to the Bible's New Testament, the Apostles were the primary disciples of Jesus, the central figure in Christianity. During the life and ministry of Jesus in the first century AD, the apostles were his closest followers and became the primary teachers of the gospel message of Jesus. The word "disciple" is sometimes used interchangeably with "apostle" – for instance the Gospel of John makes no distinction between the two terms. In modern usage, prominent missionaries are identified as apostles – a practice which stems from the Latin equivalent of apostle, missio, the source of the English word "missionary".

While Christian tradition often refers to the apostles as being twelve in number, different gospel writers give different names for the same individual, and apostles mentioned in one gospel are not mentioned in another. The commissioning of the Twelve Apostles during the ministry of Jesus is recorded in the Synoptic Gospels. After his resurrection, Jesus sent eleven of them (minus Judas Iscariot, who by then had died) by the Great Commission to spread his teachings to all nations—an event referred to as the "Dispersion of the Apostles". There is also an Eastern Christian tradition derived from the Gospel of Luke of there being as many as Seventy Apostles during the time of Jesus' ministry. Prominent figures in early Christianity were often called apostles even though their ministry or mission came after the life of Jesus.

And this:
The period of Early Christianity during the lifetimes of the apostles is called the Apostolic Age.[1] During the first century, the apostles established churches throughout the territories of the Roman Empire and according to tradition through the Middle East, Africa, India, and modern-day Ukraine. The apostle Paul, a Jew named Saul of Tarsus, is considered "the apostle of the Gentiles",[Romans 11:13] for his missions to spread the gospel message after his conversion. Although not one of the apostles commissioned during the life of Jesus, Paul claimed a special commission from the resurrected Jesus. In his writings, the epistles to Christian churches established throughout the Levant Paul did not restrict the term "apostle" to the Twelve, and often refers to his mentor Barnabas as an apostle.[1] The restricted usage appears in Revelation.[2]

By the second century AD, association with the apostles was esteemed as evidence of authority and such churches are known as Apostolic Sees. Paul's epistles were accepted as scripture, and two of the four gospels were associated with apostles, as were other New Testament works. Various Christian texts, such as the Didache and the Apostolic Constitutions, were attributed to the apostles. Bishops traced their lines of succession back to individual apostles, who were said to have dispersed from Jerusalem and established churches across great territories. Christian bishops have traditionally claimed authority deriving, by apostolic succession, from the Twelve.[1] Early Church Fathers who came to be associated with apostles, such as Pope Clement I with Peter the Apostle, are referred to as Apostolic Fathers. The Apostles' Creed, popular in the West, was said to have been composed by the apostles themselves. The Twelve Apostles are also called the Twelve Disciples. Several Christian and local traditions honour major missionaries as apostles—for example, Saint Patrick (AD 373–463) as "Apostle of Ireland" or Saint Boniface (680–755) as "Apostle to the Germans".[1]

It would appear, that forcing a definition of Apostle, is not totally supportable, and indeed now, how do you not know any Ambassador might not also be an Apostle now?
LOVE,
...Katie., .... .

 

[sunlover1]

Ambassadors are sent too, are they not?

Perhaps SOMe are, but it's not the 'meaning' of the word..

 

[sunlover1]

Hi,

It would appear, that forcing a definition of Apostle, is not totally supportable, and indeed now, how do you not know any Ambassador might not also be an Apostle now?
LOVE,
...Katie., .... .

Like i said, "I believe" that is what it means.

Here is what apostle means in the greek:
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from apostelló
Definition
a messenger, one sent on a mission, an apostle
NASB Translation
apostle (19), apostles (52), apostles' (5), messenger (1), messengers (1), is sent (1).

 

[MoreCoffee]

Perhaps SOMe are, but it's not the 'meaning' of the word..

I think it is, really.

Ambassador: an accredited diplomat sent by a state as its permanent representative in a foreign country.

 

[sunlover1]

I think it is, really.

Ambassador: an accredited diplomat sent by a state as its permanent representative in a foreign country.

Well that word is missing in the greek word tools/concordances:

Strong's Greek: 4243. ???????? (presbeuó) -- to be the elder, to take precedence

Fact is, we all have authority and we're all called to go and make disciples
of all men, we're all called to heal the sick and speak words of life over God's
people, we're all called to forgive sin and we're all called to bind and loose.
We ALL have the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead and so that same power
is available to all of us.
I realize that you may have a different understanding.

 

[katerinah1947]

Well that word is missing in the greek word tools/concordances:

Strong's Greek: 4243. ???????? (presbeuó) -- to be the elder, to take precedence

Fact is, we all have authority and we're all called to go and make disciples
of all men, we're all called to heal the sick and speak words of life over God's
people, we're all called to forgive sin and we're all called to bind and loose.
We ALL have the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead and so that same power
is available to all of us.
I realize that you may have a different understanding.

Hi,
Dear, all you are fighiting is, in what capacity, you are working for God. Does it really matter to you? No, it does not. Does it matter to those on the outside looking in. Yes.
Dear, you work for God, and the distincitons are not made by God per se, they are made by humans, to try and understand what God is doing.
I say, I know you work for God, probably personally;;; and He is person to you somehow. That somehow can be in any of four ways. One is The Holy Spirit's way. In that way, you do not know why you know this or why you know that, but you know you know it. When you doubt what you know, both the actions you see in the world and The Things you read in The Bible, calm you, making you believe a little more, in what you know. Again, that is the way The Holy Spirit works in all people, and I have seen many of YOU, here. Jesus can make you cry, and He teaches all of us, about Love. If you love excessively, in the human Agape way, or you have the greater than Agape type of love, that comes from Jesus. He can also remind you of all you, and I have done wrong, to God, and then the tears in women, or the feelings to men, are very very very remorseful, sad, sorrowful, and deeply humiliating, as I and you KNOW, just how Bad we are compared to Jesus. You can feel Jesus in these moments, unlike The Holy Spirit, who displaces His own personality to work for God and for you, to make you what you want to be. God The Father, can be felt also, and it is in The Bible, the other details about Him.
You may be an Apostle, which means sent by Jesus Himself, even today, to work for Him or for God. That is a personal calling for human kind, to let them be holier. Paul was called. I have a friend who is called. I know his mission. He is an Apostle therefore. His missiion is very Apostolic. God makes sure his mission is successful.
You also just might know The Word really well and in a silent way are asked to teach others. I in a very non silent way, was told to never teach others. In an almost silent way, I was told to share what I know about God. Notice, some differences here. I share. You maybe are to teach.
Now, does it make a difference to you, in how you love God, and how God wishes to be loved by you......To you, does this make a difference? No, it does not I'll say. It doesn't because between you and God, it is merely, a love relationship.
To others looking at you or others, they would like to know. Apostles it seems work for Jesus, even today.
LOVE,
...Katherina., .... .

 

[sunlover1]

Hi,
Dear, all you are fighiting is, in what capacity, you are working for God. Does it really matter to you? No, it does not. Does it matter to those on the outside looking in. Yes.

Seems to matter a great deal to Coffee, and I was answering his question.
I am a truth monger.
We can't just say what we "think" to be true, when it comes to the Bible.
Opinions are like noses
In truth, the word Apostle means one who is sent.
Those apostles were sent out..
That's not ALL we know about apostles, indeed it is part.
It was from strongs and other language sources, they all agree.
just something for us to keep in mind

 

[sunlover1]

Hi,

Dear, you work for God, and the distincitons are not made by God per se, they are made by humans, to try and understand what God is doing.

I say, I know you work for God, probably personally;;; and He is person to you somehow. That somehow can be in any of four ways. One is The Holy Spirit's way. In that way, you do not know why you know this or why you know that, but you know you know it. When you doubt what you know, both the actions you see in the world and The Things you read in The Bible, calm you, making you believe a little more, in what you know. Again, that is the way The Holy Spirit works in all people, and I have seen many of YOU, here. Jesus can make you cry, and He teaches all of us, about Love. If you love excessively, in the human Agape way, or you have the greater than Agape type of love, that comes from Jesus. He can also remind you of all you, and I have done wrong, to God, and then the tears in women, or the feelings to men, are very very very remorseful, sad, sorrowful, and deeply humiliating, as I and you KNOW, just how Bad we are compared to Jesus. You can feel Jesus in these moments, unlike The Holy Spirit, who displaces His own personality to work for God and for you, to make you what you want to be. God The Father, can be felt also, and it is in The Bible, the other details about Him.
You may be an Apostle, which means sent by Jesus Himself, even today, to work for Him or for God. That is a personal calling for human kind, to let them be holier. Paul was called. I have a friend who is called. I know his mission. He is an Apostle therefore. His missiion is very Apostolic. God makes sure his mission is successful.
You also just might know The Word really well and in a silent way are asked to teach others. I in a very non silent way, was told to never teach others. In an almost silent way, I was told to share what I know about God. Notice, some differences here. I share. You maybe are to teach.
Now, does it make a difference to you, in how you love God, and how God wishes to be loved by you......To you, does this make a difference? No, it does not I'll say. It doesn't because between you and God, it is merely, a love relationship.
To others looking at you or others, they would like to know. Apostles it seems work for Jesus, even today.
LOVE,
...Katherina., .... .

I agree with much of your above thoughts.
Specifically, that men are still called as apostles of God.

Yes, I do have that type of a teaching "anointing" on me,
and in fact I attended college specifically to teach,
and I did homeschool as well.

Some of your post was confusing to me.
So I answered what I beleive i understood.
Blessings!