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Submission.

katerinah1947

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There is no quote there at all.

But yes, I referenced two things: The current edition of the Catechism of the RCC for itself, # 87. And also a book (part of LDS Tradition) from an LDS Apostle/Prophet - both relating a view.

Yes, there seems to be a strong point from Catholics here (and I note Mormons in LDS forums) about the very essential aspect of SUBMISSION - understood in terms of absolute POWER (a very Roman concept), but it seems that while the RCC makes a huge point of this, it doesn't do it.



See post # 3.


A blessed Holy Week to you and yours....


- Josiah

Hi
Okay. I understand you, and I did not before. You are giving your view, on the ways things are, from others and that view seems to be correct to you, everywhere you look, and in everything you read.
I originally thought you were presenting your own work, and not the work of others. It sure seemed like it to me. I have only presented my own personal work for a few years now. So I am now probably changing back to repreresenting the work of others, eventually but that hasn't happened quite yet.
Presenting my own work, was never my words. One day, I an in a coffee moment. I am with an old priest. I am with an old parisioner. The talk went to religion. I said something, not thinking about it. The old priest braced. "WHERE DID you get that from?" Meaning, whose book and whose opinion am I putting forth, for discussion. Not thinking again, as I had no idea why anyone would say such a thing, let alone a priest, in obvious emotion, I said in my defence: "This is no body's work. This is my own."
Silence ensued. All attention turned to me. I was a bit shaken. I then told them, what my own work said and proved to be true. No one talked after that, but I wondered then why anyone would say what he had just said.
Years passed. One day he silenced a woman who spoke up, saying that if I said that, then it was so. I wondered about that. I wondered why he would say that about me.
I think it is because, I did my own work. I relied on no opinion, or text that was not proven personally by me. Proved, is the important word here.
I make mistakes, as I think everyone is like that. I think everyone, does not believe, but knows.
LOVE,
...Katherina., .... .
 
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Rick Otto

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We are fallen men, and we do submit, as imperfect as we are. I guess you're not one of the imperfect ones? I mean, even the apostles generally admitted to their imperfection, yet Jesus did institute His Church with fallen men at its head.

No, Jesus remains the head of His church.
We submit to Him.
 
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Root of Jesse

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No, Jesus remains the head of His church.
We submit to Him.

Jesus appointed representatives to speak for him after His death. Peter being in charge of the Church on earth in no way negates Jesus being the head of His Church.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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Jesus appointed representatives to speak for him after His death.


PERHAPS.... but never any denomination (existing then or now).... and never in this dictator fashion being herein defended.

And remember - over and over and over - Jesus warned us about those who teach falsely. Over and over we are told to "test" teachers. And never - not once, not ever - is it stated that if a denomination exempts it itself from accountability, ergo that one is so exempted.

You might wonder if the singular, specific, particular, unique, individual RC Denomination is - in perpetuity - His mouth, His exempt One - you might think He would have at least MENTIONED it..... at least in passing..... at least once...... unless Jesus was ignorant of its existence and claims OR didn't exempt it. Just something to think about..... Especially in light of Him quoting Scripture and pointing to it authoritatively some 50 times but not once, not ever, not a bit even so much as MENTIONING the RCC - at all, ever, not once....



A blessed Holy Week to all....


- Josiah
 
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sunlover1

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Jesus appointed representatives to speak for him after His death. Peter being in charge of the Church on earth in no way negates Jesus being the head of His Church.

Didn't He appoint ALL of us to not only speak for Him, but also to be AS He is...

...namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself,
not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed
to us the word of reconciliation. 20Therefore, we are ambassadors
for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we
beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21He made Him
who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become
the righteousness of God in Him.


We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us.
God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides
in him. 17By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence
in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.
 
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MoreCoffee

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Didn't He appoint ALL of us to not only speak for Him, but also to be AS He is...

...namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself,
not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed
to us the word of reconciliation. 20Therefore, we are ambassadors
for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we
beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21He made Him
who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become
the righteousness of God in Him.


We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us.
God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides
in him. 17By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence
in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.

Is Second Corinthians chapter five verses sixteen to twenty one talking about every christian?
From now on, therefore, we regard no one from a human point of view; even though we once regarded Christ from a human point of view, we regard him thus no longer. Therefore, if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

So we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We beseech you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.​
(2 Corinthians 5:16-21)
 
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MoreCoffee

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I know that this post is a little long and I beg your indulgence on account of that but it is worth reading, I think, because it is the view of Albert Barnes who was a Presbyterian minister and able commentator. He offers this explanation for 2 Cor 5:20
2 Corinthians 5:20

Now then we are ambassadors for Christ - We are the ambassadors whom Christ has sent forth to negotiate with people in regard to their reconciliation to God, Tyndale renders this: “Now then are we messengers in the room of Christ.” The word used here πρεσβεύομεν presbeuomen, from πρέσβυς presbus an aged man, an elder, and then an ambassador) means to act as an ambassador, or sometimes merely to deliver a message for another, without being empowered to do any thing more than to explain or enforce it - Bloomfield. See Thucydides 7, 9. An ambassador is a minister of the highest rank, employed by one prince or state at the court of another, to manage the concerns of his own prince or state, and representing the dignity and power of his sovereign - Webster. He is sent to do what the sovereign would himself do were he present. They are sent to make known the will of the sovereign, and to negotiate matters of commerce, of war, or of peace, and in general everything affecting the interests of the sovereign among the people to whom they are sent.

At all times, and in all countries, an ambassador is a sacred character, and his person is regarded as inviolable. He is bound implicitly to obey the instructions of his sovereign, and as far as possible to do only what the sovereign would do were he himself present. Ministers are ambassadors for Christ, as they are sent to do what he would do were he personally present. They are to make known, and to explain, and enforce the terms on which God is willing to be reconciled to people. They are not to negotiate on any new terms, nor to change those which God has proposed, nor to follow their own plans or devices, but they are simply to urge, explain, state, and enforce the terms on which God is willing to be reconciled. Of course they are to seek the honour of the sovereign who has sent them forth, and to seek to do only his will. They go not to promote their own welfare; not to seek honour, dignity, or emolument; but they go to transact the business which the Son of God would engage in were he again personally on the earth. It follows that their office is one of great dignity, and great responsibility, and that respect should be showed them as the ambassadors of the King of kings.

As though God did beseech you by us - Our message is to be regarded as the message of God. It is God who speaks. What we say to you is said in his name and on his authority, and should be received with the respect which is due to a message directly from God. The gospel message is God speaking to people through the ministry, and entreating them to be reconciled. This invests the message which the ministers of religion bear with infinite dignity and solemnity; and it makes it a fearful and awful thing to reject it.

We pray you in Christ’s stead - (υπερ χριστου huper Christou). In the place of Christ; or doing what he did when on earth, and what he would do were he where we are.

Be ye reconciled to God - This is the sum and burden of the message which the ministers of the gospel bear to their fellow-men; see the note on 2Cor 5:19. It implies that man has something to do in this work. He is to be reconciled to God. He is to give up his opposition. He is to submit to the terms of mercy. All the change in the case is to be in him, for God cannot change. God has removed all the obstacles to reconciliation which existed on his part. He has done all that he will do, all that needed to be done, in order to render reconciliation easy as possible. And now it remains that man should lay aside his hostility, abandon his sins, embrace the terms of mercy, and become in fact reconciled to God. And the great object of the ministers of reconciliation is to urge this duty on their fellow-men. They are to do it in the name of Christ. They are to do it as if Christ were himself present, and were himself urging the message. They are to use the arguments which he would use; evince the zeal which he would show; and present the motives which he would present to induce a dying world to become in fact reconciled to God.
 
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sunlover1

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Is Second Corinthians chapter five verses sixteen to twenty one talking about every christian?
Is 2 Corinthians written to every Christian?
Why "5:16-20"
text without context = pretext
 
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sunlover1

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I know that this post is a little long and I beg your indulgence on account of that but it is worth reading, I think, because it is the view of Albert Barnes who was a Presbyterian minister and able commentator. He offers this explanation for 2 Cor 5:20
2 Corinthians 5:20

Now then we are ambassadors for Christ - We are the ambassadors whom Christ has sent forth to negotiate with people in regard to their reconciliation to God, Tyndale renders this: “Now then are we messengers in the room of Christ.” The word used here πρεσβεύομεν presbeuomen, from πρέσβυς presbus an aged man, an elder, and then an ambassador) means to act as an ambassador, or sometimes merely to deliver a message for another, without being empowered to do any thing more than to explain or enforce it - Bloomfield. See Thucydides 7, 9. An ambassador is a minister of the highest rank, employed by one prince or state at the court of another, to manage the concerns of his own prince or state, and representing the dignity and power of his sovereign - Webster. He is sent to do what the sovereign would himself do were he present. They are sent to make known the will of the sovereign, and to negotiate matters of commerce, of war, or of peace, and in general everything affecting the interests of the sovereign among the people to whom they are sent.

At all times, and in all countries, an ambassador is a sacred character, and his person is regarded as inviolable. He is bound implicitly to obey the instructions of his sovereign, and as far as possible to do only what the sovereign would do were he himself present. Ministers are ambassadors for Christ, as they are sent to do what he would do were he personally present. They are to make known, and to explain, and enforce the terms on which God is willing to be reconciled to people. They are not to negotiate on any new terms, nor to change those which God has proposed, nor to follow their own plans or devices, but they are simply to urge, explain, state, and enforce the terms on which God is willing to be reconciled. Of course they are to seek the honour of the sovereign who has sent them forth, and to seek to do only his will. They go not to promote their own welfare; not to seek honour, dignity, or emolument; but they go to transact the business which the Son of God would engage in were he again personally on the earth. It follows that their office is one of great dignity, and great responsibility, and that respect should be showed them as the ambassadors of the King of kings.

As though God did beseech you by us - Our message is to be regarded as the message of God. It is God who speaks. What we say to you is said in his name and on his authority, and should be received with the respect which is due to a message directly from God. The gospel message is God speaking to people through the ministry, and entreating them to be reconciled. This invests the message which the ministers of religion bear with infinite dignity and solemnity; and it makes it a fearful and awful thing to reject it.

We pray you in Christ’s stead - (υπερ χριστου huper Christou). In the place of Christ; or doing what he did when on earth, and what he would do were he where we are.

Be ye reconciled to God - This is the sum and burden of the message which the ministers of the gospel bear to their fellow-men; see the note on 2Cor 5:19. It implies that man has something to do in this work. He is to be reconciled to God. He is to give up his opposition. He is to submit to the terms of mercy. All the change in the case is to be in him, for God cannot change. God has removed all the obstacles to reconciliation which existed on his part. He has done all that he will do, all that needed to be done, in order to render reconciliation easy as possible. And now it remains that man should lay aside his hostility, abandon his sins, embrace the terms of mercy, and become in fact reconciled to God. And the great object of the ministers of reconciliation is to urge this duty on their fellow-men. They are to do it in the name of Christ. They are to do it as if Christ were himself present, and were himself urging the message. They are to use the arguments which he would use; evince the zeal which he would show; and present the motives which he would present to induce a dying world to become in fact reconciled to God.

Nice commentary, similar to those made by some of our own members.
IOW, just another man's opinion and thoughts.
Very nice but what's your point?
 
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sunlover1

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Context is the answer. The passage forms a unit in the letter.

Context to me is the entire counsel of God.
And in that case, we are ALL able ministers.
not to mention prophets/priests/kings.
Yes, we are ALL anointed to speak as those filled with God,
and mandated to speak as speaking the very oracles of God

If anyone speaks,
they should do so as one who speaks the very words of God.
If anyone serves,
they should do so with the strength God provides,
so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ.
To him be the glory and the power for ever and ever. Amen.



:preach:
 
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MoreCoffee

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Context to me is the entire counsel of God. ...

Yes, in a sense that is true but how does that change the immediate context and how does it make the statement about being ambassadors of God applicable in undifferentiated literalism to each and every christian?
 
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Root of Jesse

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PERHAPS.... but never any denomination (existing then or now).... and never in this dictator fashion being herein defended.

And remember - over and over and over - Jesus warned us about those who teach falsely. Over and over we are told to "test" teachers. And never - not once, not ever - is it stated that if a denomination exempts it itself from accountability, ergo that one is so exempted.

You might wonder if the singular, specific, particular, unique, individual RC Denomination is - in perpetuity - His mouth, His exempt One - you might think He would have at least MENTIONED it..... at least in passing..... at least once...... unless Jesus was ignorant of its existence and claims OR didn't exempt it. Just something to think about..... Especially in light of Him quoting Scripture and pointing to it authoritatively some 50 times but not once, not ever, not a bit even so much as MENTIONING the RCC - at all, ever, not once....



A blessed Holy Week to all....


- Josiah

We agree, Jesus didn't create any denominations...The Catholic Church is not a denomination, whether you think so or not.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Didn't He appoint ALL of us to not only speak for Him, but also to be AS He is...

...namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself,
not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed
to us the word of reconciliation. 20Therefore, we are ambassadors
for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we
beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21He made Him
who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become
the righteousness of God in Him.


We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us.
God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides
in him. 17By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence
in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.

No, we don't speak for him. We speak of him, and of what He did. The Catholic Church, when speaking on matters of faith and morals, speaks with the authority of God, as witnessed in many places in Scripture.
 
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sunlover1

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Yes, in a sense that is true but how does that change the immediate context and how does it make the statement about being ambassadors of God applicable in undifferentiated literalism to each and every christian?

It doesn't "change" the immediate context, it helps to explain it. IMO.

We were created in the very image/likeness of God!
When He created Adam/Eve, they had dominion/authority.
Because of their sin, all of mankind came under a curse.
Jesus redeemed mankind from the curse.. SO THAT the
blessing of Abraham would come on us, SO that we'd
receive the promise of the Spirit. Gal 3, Eph 13
So, thanks be to God in Christ, we have the fullness
of the Spirit.
WHY?
So we have power over sin? Partly yes, but also so that
we can manifest GOD in the earth. God dealt with sin,
and we act like that's all there is to Christianity..
He dealt with it so we could move on to more mature thinking...
Heb 6
Jesus who walked the earth as a man, and left so that
we would be "better off" according to HIm (because that
way we'd have His Spirit IN us) said that He needed to
"go" to prepare a "place" for us, that where He IS we
too might BE.
WE ALL are now seated in the Heavenlies with Christ Jesus.
We all have that same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead.
If it's GOD who speaks/manifests/heals/loves/delivers....
(to GOD be the glory!!) then what difference does it make
which MAN He manifests THROUGH?

It doesn't. We are the body of Christ. So now it's no longer we
who live, but Christ in us.
He left and now we, His body, are here in His stead... empowered
by the Holy Ghost (God)
But if we fail, the donkeys can speak and the rocks can cry out!

#Kings/priests/prophets
 
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sunlover1

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No, we don't speak for him. We speak of him, and of what He did. The Catholic Church, when speaking on matters of faith and morals, speaks with the authority of God, as witnessed in many places in Scripture.
God speaks through men, always has.
If man won't hear/speak, He'll speak through a donkey.
 
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MoreCoffee

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It doesn't "change" the immediate context, it helps to explain it. IMO.

We were created in the very image/likeness of God!
When He created Adam/Eve, they had dominion/authority.
Because of their sin, all of mankind came under a curse.
Jesus redeemed mankind from the curse.. SO THAT the
blessing of Abraham would come on us, SO that we'd
receive the promise of the Spirit. Gal 3, Eph 13
So, thanks be to God in Christ, we have the fullness
of the Spirit.
WHY?
So we have power over sin? Partly yes, but also so that
we can manifest GOD in the earth. God dealt with sin,
and we act like that's all there is to Christianity..
He dealt with it so we could move on to more mature thinking...
Heb 6
Jesus who walked the earth as a man, and left so that
we would be "better off" according to HIm (because that
way we'd have His Spirit IN us) said that He needed to
"go" to prepare a "place" for us, that where He IS we
too might BE.
WE ALL are now seated in the Heavenlies with Christ Jesus.
We all have that same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead.
If it's GOD who speaks/manifests/heals/loves/delivers....
(to GOD be the glory!!) then what difference does it make
which MAN He manifests THROUGH?

It doesn't. We are the body of Christ. So now it's no longer we
who live, but Christ in us.
He left and now we, His body, are here in His stead... empowered
by the Holy Ghost (God)
But if we fail, the donkeys can speak and the rocks can cry out!

#Kings/priests/prophets

Well, the chapter - second Corinthians chapter five - is all about saint Paul's role as an apostle who brought the gospel to others speaking on God's behalf. Not every Christian is an apostle so not every Christian fulfils the role that saint Paul is describing.
 
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katerinah1947

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God speaks through men, always has.
If man won't hear/speak, He'll speak through a donkey.

Hi,
You are so right in your observations. I and others have spoken words, even we had to recall later, as they were never our words, but Words of God, spoken by The Holy Spirit. ~In my particular case, some of those words once, were from God The Father. I spoke those. In that same case, some of the words to that man, were from Jesus The Christ, The Messiah. I spoke those words to that man also.~ This is so common within in Protestant Chrisitianity. I am even a Catholic, and I know of others like me. Others who God used and uses on occasion to speak to others, of His Own Words, to that person or that group.~
Sorry to butt in Sunlover1, I thought you should have someone else telling them that you are right.
LOVE,
...Katie., .... .
 
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sunlover1

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Well, the chapter - second Corinthians chapter five - is all about saint Paul's role as an apostle who brought the gospel to others speaking on God's behalf. Not every Christian is an apostle so not every Christian fulfils the role that saint Paul is describing.

Makes sense to me.
Not all are apostles.
 
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sunlover1

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Hi,
You are so right in your observations. I and others have spoken words, even we had to recall later, as they were never our words, but Words of God, spoken by The Holy Spirit. ~In my particular case, some of those words once, were from God The Father. I spoke those. In that same case, some of the words to that man, were from Jesus The Christ, The Messiah. I spoke those words to that man also.~ This is so common within in Protestant Chrisitianity. I am even a Catholic, and I know of others like me. Others who God used and uses on occasion to speak to others, of His Own Words, to that person or that group.~
Sorry to butt in Sunlover1, I thought you should have someone else telling them that you are right.
LOVE,
...Katie., .... .

Hi Katie.
I know what you mean!
I've said things that there was no way I could have known..
Like it was God speaking through me.
I have attended Catholic church a few times this past year.
:thumbsup:
 
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