Submission.

[MoreCoffee]

The new testament testifies to Christ's intent to make a church that would continue a part of his mission in the world; namely to go forth and teach all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have ever commanded you. And the Lord added his promise to the mission saying I am with you always, even to the consummation of the age.

It is obvious that the Lord intends this mission to succeed and to that end he gave to the church gifts to ensure the success of the mission by the church. Thus he promised that when the Spirit of truth has arrived, he will teach the whole truth to you. For he will not be speaking from himself. Instead, whatever he will hear, he will speak. And he will announce to you the things that are to come.

And with the gift of the Spirit of God there was also given authority to govern and to teach. So the Lord says whatever you will have bound on earth, shall be bound also in heaven, and whatever you will have released on earth, shall be released also in heaven.

And in the matter of sins the Lord says Receive the Holy Spirit. Those whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them, and those whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

These things being so it is right to expect the apostles, to whom this gift was first given, to teach their charges about it. And this is exactly what they did saying, Obey your leaders and be subject to them. For they watch over you, as if to render an account of your souls. So then, may they do this with joy, and not with grief. Otherwise, it would not be as helpful to you.

 

[Rick Otto]

How does the RC Denomination submit to the church? Could you quote it itself talking about how it submits to the church? Is it something it refuses to do but constantly shouts must be done?


Seems to me the RCC shouts constantly about the importance, the necessity, the mandate of submission. It just doesn't do what it preaches, it does the opposite: it demands that all submit to it itself as unto God Himself. CCC 87, etc. What it does is the exact opposite of what it says must be done.





.

That was one of the first things I noticed about them.
They submit only to themselves.
It is quite the quiet riot.
They might counter that they follow scripture, but then they have to admit they are the only ones who truly understand it.

 

[SpyderByte]

That was one of the first things I noticed about them.
They submit only to themselves.
It is quite the quiet riot.
They might counter that they follow scripture, but then they have to admit they are the only ones who truly understand it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDcw_-16j7Q

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

How does the RC Denomination submit to the church ?????? Could you quote it itself talking about how it submits to the church ????? Is it something it refuses to do but constantly shouts must be done ????


Seems to me the RCC shouts constantly about the importance, the necessity, the mandate of submission. It just doesn't do what it preaches, it does the opposite: it demands that all submit to it itself as unto God Himself. CCC 87, etc. What it does is the exact opposite of what it says must be done.




.

That was one of the first things I noticed about them.
They submit only to themselves.
It is quite the quiet riot.
They might counter that they follow scripture, but then they have to admit they are the only ones who truly understand it.

My question was AGAIN evaded....

Yes, the RCC submits only to it itself... the one self sees in the mirror.... and tells all others to do the same, submitting to ITSELF alone as unto God Himself - as the unmitigated, unaccountable Dictator, the Lord over all: itself. Insists itself. Shouting about the importance of submission - but it doesn't submit to anything. Just itself. As if God. CCC 87. "The Authority of the Church" by LDS Apostle/Prophet Bruce McConkie.


See post # 3.



A blessed Holy Week to all...


Pax


- Josiah

 

[katerinah1947]

My question was AGAIN evaded....

Yes, the RCC submits only to it itself... the one self sees in the mirror.... and tells all others to do the same, submitting to ITSELF alone as unto God Himself - as the unmitigated, unaccountable Dictator, the Lord over all: itself. Insists itself. Shouting about the importance of submission - but it doesn't submit to anything. Just itself. As if God. CCC 87. "The Authority of the Church" by LDS Apostle/Prophet Bruce McConkie.


See post # 3.



A blessed Holy Week to all...


Pax


- Josiah

Hi,
Do I understand you correctly, that you are using as your quoted authority, not your own work, and not the Catechism, but in fact an LDS prophets words, on The Holy Roman Catholic Church?????

You wrote: Shouting about the importance of submission - but it doesn't submit to anything. Just itself. As if God. CCC 87. "The Authority of the Church" by LDS Apostle/Prophet Bruce McConkie.

LOVE,
...Katherina., .... .

 

[Rick Otto]

Hi,
Do I understand you correctly, that you are using as your quoted authority, not your own work, and not the Catechism, but in fact an LDS prophets words, on The Holy Roman Catholic Church?????

You wrote: Shouting about the importance of submission - but it doesn't submit to anything. Just itself. As if God. CCC 87. "The Authority of the Church" by LDS Apostle/Prophet Bruce McConkie.

LOVE,
...Katherina., .... .

I don't think so, sis.
He just says the two are alike in their self-authentication.
He spent a respectable amount of time with the RCC, studying.

 

[katerinah1947]

I don't think so, sis.
He just says the two are alike in their self-authentication.
He spent a respectable amount of time with the RCC, studying.

Hi,
Thanks.
...Me., .... .

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

You wrote: Shouting about the importance of submission - but it [the individual RC Denomination] doesn't submit to anything. Just itself. As if God. CCC 87


.

Correct.




A blessed Holy Week to you and yours.


- Josiah

 

[katerinah1947]

Correct.




A blessed Holy Week to you and yours.


- Josiah

Hi,

I had asked you, if that was a quote from and LDS reference. Some one not you, told me, that you were not quoting from LDS references.
I did ask you, where they were shouting, after posting not only 87, but rougly 84 to 90. I saw no shouting there.

LOVE,
...Katerina., .... .

 

[Rick Otto]

I don't think he meant it literally.
That it is announced to the world from such a grand facade is a "shout".

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

I had asked you, if that was a quote from and LDS reference.

I don't recall you supplying any quote.


To the point, since you seem to insist all should "submit" to something above and beyond self, again - to what does the RC Denomination submit? Or does it teach one thing and do the opposite?




.

 

[katerinah1947]

I don't recall you supplying any quote.


To the point, since you seem to insist all should "submit" to something above and beyond self, again - to what does the RC Denomination submit? Or does it teach one thing and do the opposite?




.

Hi,
1.) Post 265, for the quote.
LOVE,
...Katie., .... .

Hi again,
I insist, that I, and no one else, submit to Absolute Honesty, or my best atempts at that.
I am not allowed to teach religion. I am bad at that. I am allowed to share my experiences, and I can sometimes see the honesty flaws in other peoples statements and lives, some of which are uncorrectilble, it seems.
LOVE,
...Katherina., .... .

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Hi,
1.) Post 265, for the quote.

I didn't quote anything in post 265.



.

 

[Root of Jesse]

No.
John.18

[36] Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Are you denying, by your post, that Jesus did not build an earthly kingdom?

Why is everything either/or to you folks? How does the above quote deny any earthly Kingdom of Christ. The earthly Kingdom is His Church.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Kingdom is Kingdom.
Heavenly is where we ARE:

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us,
even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ
—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with
Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable
riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Sorry, but if you think this is heaven, what are we striving for? Heaven is where we want to be. It isn't where we are now. Except in a Catholic Church at Mass when heaven touches earth for a brief few moments.

 

[Root of Jesse]

How does the RC Denomination submit to the church? Could you quote it itself talking about how it submits to the church? Is it something it refuses to do but constantly shouts must be done?


Seems to me the RCC shouts constantly about the importance, the necessity, the mandate of submission. It just doesn't do what it preaches, it does the opposite: it demands that all submit to it itself as unto God Himself. CCC 87, etc. What it does is the exact opposite of what it says must be done.





.

We are fallen men, and we do submit, as imperfect as we are. I guess you're not one of the imperfect ones? I mean, even the apostles generally admitted to their imperfection, yet Jesus did institute His Church with fallen men at its head.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I happen to be an elder (presbyter) of my church, so I am in the role.

I don't expect the congregation members to be subject to me as if I have some kind of authority over them. There is nothing in Scripture that gives me the right to tell members what to do in their lives. Jesus has all authority in heaven and in earth and He has always kept it and has never given it to anyone else. The elder role is a position of responsibility. The "buck" stops at me as far as spiritual direction of the church goes (I am the Session Clerk, which is the "top job" in the eldership, but even that is a responsibility role and I still only have one vote in the decision making).

We have power of attorney to use the authority of the Name of Christ to deal with sickness, disease and demons. But it would be a misuse of authority to try and use it to control the personal lives of members and to dictate how they should behave.

Of course, everything in the church meetings should be done decently and in order, so if a member behaves contrary to that, then the elders have a responsibility to sort things out and bring things back into order.

The church went through some serious problems during the 1970s and 1980s because of the shepherding/discipling movement where people assumed "authority" and assigned themselves as mentors to others. This seriously damaged many lives and the fruit of it showed the demonic nature of the doctrine. The problem was that these "mentors" dictated over every aspect of the subjects' lives even to the point of what job they should have, who they should marry, who there friends should be, what books they should be reading, etc., etc. Nowhere in Scripture does the Lord ever give that kind of authority to anyone. I believe that these "shepherds" came close to blaspheming the Holy Spirit because they were usurping His role in the lives of believers.

As far as members' moral lives are concerned, as an elder, I have only an advisory role, and all I can do is to point out those aspects of Scripture that may apply to their situation. I cannot dictate what they should decide in the light of that.

So, I believe that subjection in the Biblical sense is a respect for the role of elder, and to listen to godly advice, and to conduct themselves appropriately during church meetings and services, and to perform the roles given to them in the church.

As an elder, I have the responsibility of encouraging the members to find the will of God for their lives and to follow the great commission in the area where the Holy Spirit opens the way for them. I have a responsibility to preach and teach the Word so that the members are built up in their faith. I also have a responsibility to ensure that the management of church in money and property matters is well done so that the mission to the community is always made possible.

To be honest, that's true of any pastor. You can only propose rules of faith on your flock. It's up to them (and you, to those of your hierarchy) to see the good and try to obey.
I'm wondering how you were ordained, though. If you study Scripture, you know how the apostles were ordained, you know how Timothy and Titus (and Paul, for that matter) were ordained-it was the Holy Spirit who chose them, and then by the laying on of hands by those who had received the laying on of hands from Jesus.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

We are fallen men, and we do submit, as imperfect as we are.

What does the RC submit to?

If you support the idea of submission....

 

[katerinah1947]

I didn't quote anything in post 265.



.

Yes, the RCC submits only to it itself... the one self sees in the mirror.... and tells all others to do the same, submitting to ITSELF alone as unto God Himself - as the unmitigated, unaccountable Dictator, the Lord over all: itself. Insists itself. Shouting about the importance of submission - but it doesn't submit to anything. Just itself. As if God. CCC 87. "The Authority of the Church" by LDS Apostle/Prophet Bruce McConkie.

- Josiah

Your qutoe to me, was all the words above this: {"The Authoritiy of the Church" by LDS Apostle/Prophet Bruce McConkie.}

I was asking if your statements are being made, are from souces, like Bruce McConkie? And I am startled if you are doing that.

LOVE,
...Katherina., .... .

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Yes, the RCC submits only to it itself... the one self sees in the mirror.... and tells all others to do the same, submitting to ITSELF alone as unto God Himself - as the unmitigated, unaccountable Dictator, the Lord over all: itself. Insists itself. Shouting about the importance of submission - but it doesn't submit to anything. Just itself. As if God. CCC 87. "The Authority of the Church" by LDS Apostle/Prophet Bruce McConkie.

- Josiah

Your qutoe to me, was all the words above this: {"The Authoritiy of the Church" by LDS Apostle/Prophet Bruce McConkie.}

I was asking if your statements are being made, are from souces, like Bruce McConkie?

There is no quote there at all.

But yes, I referenced two things: The current edition of the Catechism of the RCC for itself, # 87. And also a book (part of LDS Tradition) from an LDS Apostle/Prophet - both relating a view.

Yes, there seems to be a strong point from Catholics here (and I note Mormons in LDS forums) about the very essential aspect of SUBMISSION - understood in terms of absolute POWER (a very Roman concept), but it seems that while the RCC makes a huge point of this, it doesn't do it.



See post # 3.


A blessed Holy Week to you and yours....


- Josiah