Submission.

[sunlover1]

"Small stone". Jesus uses the word that means "rock bed" when He said "on this rock"...

This ^

 

[Rick Otto]

This ^

Yes...
If He was referring to Peter, wouldn't He have said "...and upon you I will build..."
or if he had turned to address the others wouldn't He have said, "...and upon him..."?

Pronouns aren't chopped liver.

 

[sunlover1]

Yes...
If He was referring to Peter, wouldn't He have said "...and upon you I will build..."
or if he had turned to address the others wouldn't He have said, "...and upon him..."?

Pronouns aren't chopped liver.

Of course He would have.
Remember that Peter/Rock thread from back in the old days?

Oh LLOJ!!!

 

[MoreCoffee]

Matt 16: 17 In response Jesus said to him: “Blessed you are, Simon son of Jonah, because flesh and blooda did not reveal it to you, but my Father in the heavens did. 18 Also, I say to you: You are Rock, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the Hades will not overpower it. 19 I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of the heavens, and whatever you may bind on earth will be bound in the heavens, and whatever you may unbind on earth will be unbound in the heavens.” 20 Then he sternly instructed the disciples not to tell anybody that he was the Christ.

The Lord Jesus Christ calls him Rock (Peter being an untranslated English homophone for the Greek word used) and then says he will build his church on this rock. You guys need to play games with the English text to get the effect you want. Read it in Greek and see what it says.

 

[MrMoe]

Yes...
If He was referring to Peter, wouldn't He have said "...and upon you I will build..."
or if he had turned to address the others wouldn't He have said, "...and upon him..."?

Pronouns aren't chopped liver.

Exactly. Since when do you refer to a person as a 'this'?
It's seems pretty obvious to me the 'this' Jesus is talking about is Pete's revelation.


Funny thing is when I once pointed out that in the very same chapter Jesus turns to Peter and calls him Satan, one Catholic told me that Jesus wasn't really referring to Peter.
So when Jesus turns to face Peter and says "Get behind me Satan,You are an offence to me" it's not really referring to Peter, but when he uses the word 'this' instead of 'you' it's definitely referring to Peter?

 

[Rick Otto]

Matt 16: 17 In response Jesus said to him: “Blessed you are, Simon son of Jonah, because flesh and blooda did not reveal it to you, but my Father in the heavens did. 18 Also, I say to you: You are Rock, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the Hades will not overpower it. 19 I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of the heavens, and whatever you may bind on earth will be bound in the heavens, and whatever you may unbind on earth will be unbound in the heavens.” 20 Then he sternly instructed the disciples not to tell anybody that he was the Christ.

The Lord Jesus Christ calls him Rock (Peter being an untranslated English homophone for the Greek word used) and then says he will build his church on this rock. You guys need to play games with the English text to get the effect you want. Read it in Greek and see what it says.

So by ignoring the rules of English regarding usage of personal and impersonal pronouns to make Peter into a "this" instead of a "you" or "him", you aren't "playing games"?

But pronouns aside,...

To whom is Jesus talking to in that verse?
Himself, Peter, the other apostles?
Do you know? Can you tell?

 

[MoreCoffee]

The Lord Jesus Christ was speaking to saint Peter since the Lord uses the singular when he says "you are the Rock and on this rock I will build my church". Obviously he is not speaking to many because if he were he would use a plural and it isn't speaking of himself since he says "you are Rock" rather than "I am Rock". And obviously he is not speaking of a concept because he says "you are Rock" rather than "this is Rock".

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

The Lord Jesus Christ was speaking to saint Peter since the Lord uses the singular when he says "you are the Rock and on this rock I will build my church". Obviously he is not speaking to many because if he were he would use a plural and it isn't speaking of himself since he says "you are Rock" rather than "I am Rock". And obviously he is not speaking of a concept because he says "you are Rock" rather than "this is Rock".

WHATEVER is signified by "keys" (and Jesus didn't say..... and Jesus DID NOT say!), did he give "them" to PETER in response to his faith as just proclaimed (the historic, original, traditional, EOC, OOC and Protestant view) or based on the DNA of Peter or office Peter didn't yet have (the newer insistence of the individual RC Denomination, selfishly)?

In any case, there's NOTHING about Peter being able to re-gift these "keys". Much less that that could be stolen by the singular, individual RC Denomination and then it itself individually and exclusively is to re-gift them in perpretuity.

And NOTHING in the verse about Peter (or any bishop or any denomination) being The Dictator, the unaccountale and all-powerful Lord over all. NOTHING remotely related to the very Roman and very unchristian view of "authority" that the individual RC Denomination has made so foundational, so central (and so self-serving).


See post # 3.


Thank you!


Pax


- Josiah

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

"Upon THIS..." NOT "Upon HIM"

The pronouns don't lie.

Perhaps Jesus just goofed...... one thing the RCC itself insists about it itself is that it itself just KNOWS what Jesus meant to say (but didn't). It always to be something that is self-serving to the RCC itself.




.

 

[barryatlake]

Josiah, it looks like the early Christians do not agree with you Josiah.

"Through envy and jealousy, the greatest and most righteous pillars [of the Church] have been persecuted and put to death. Let us set before our eyes the illustrious apostles. Peter, through unrighteous envy, endured not one or two, but numerous labours and when he had at length suffered martyrdom, departed to the place of glory due to him." Clement of Rome, The First Epistle of Clement, 5 (c. A.D. 96).

"I do not, as Peter and Paul, issue commandments unto you." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Romans, 4 (c. A.D. 110).

'You have thus by such an admonition bound together the plantings of Peter and Paul at Rome and Corinth." Dionysius of Corinth, Epistle to Pope Soter, fragment in Eusebius' Church History, II:25 (c. A.D. 178).

"Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:1:1 (c. A.D. 180).

"As Peter had preached the Word publicly at Rome, and declared the Gospel by the Spirit, many who were present requested that Mark, who had followed him for a long time and remembered his sayings, should write them out." Clement of Alexandria, fragment in Eusebius Church History, VI:14,6 (A.D. 190)

"It is, therefore, recorded that Paul was beheaded in Rome itself, and that Peter likewise was crucified under Nero. This account of Peter and Paul is substantiated by the fact that their names are preserved in the cemeteries of that place even to the present day. It is confirmed likewise by Caius, a member of the Church, who arose under Zephyrinus, bishop of Rome. He, in a published disputation with Proclus, the leader of the Phrygian heresy, speaks as follows concerning the places where the sacred corpses of the aforesaid apostles are laid: 'But I can show the trophies of the apostles. For if you will go to the Vatican or to the Ostian way, you will find the trophies of those who laid the foundations of this church.'" Gaius, fragment in Eusebius' Church History, 2:25 (A.D. 198).

"[W]hat utterance also the Romans give, so very near (to the apostles), to whom Peter and Paul conjointly bequeathed the gospel even sealed with their own blood." Tertullian, Against Marcion, 4:5 (inter A.D. 207-212).

'We read the lives of the Caesars: At Rome Nero was the first who stained with blood the rising blood. Then is Peter girt by another (an allusion to John 21:18), when he is made fast to the cross." Tertullian, Scorpiace, 15:3 (A.D. 212).

"Peter...at last, having come to Rome, he was crucified head-downwards; for he had requested that he might suffer this way." Origen, Third Commentary on Genesis, (A.D. 232).

"Thus Peter, the first of the Apostles, having been often apprehended, and thrown into prison, and treated with igominy, was last of all crucified at Rome." Peter of Alexandria, The Canonical Epistle, Canon 9 (A.D. 306).

"[W]hich Peter and Paul preached at Rome..." Lactantius, The Divine Institutes, 4:21 (A.D. 310).

"Peter...coming to the city of Rome, by the mighty cooperation of that power which was lying in wait there..." Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, II:14,5 (A.D. 325).

"This man [Simon Magus], after he had been cast out by the Apostles, came to Rome...Peter and Paul, a noble pair, chief rulers of the Church, arrived and set the error right...For Peter was there, who carrieth the keys of heaven..." Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures ,6:14-15 (c. A.D. 350).

"And Peter, who had hid himself for fear of the Jews, and the Apostle Paul who was let down in a basket, and fled, when they were told, 'Ye must bear witness at Rome,' deferred not the journey; yea, rather, they departed rejoicing..." Athanasius, Defence of his Flight, 18 (c. A.D. 357).

"I think it my duty to consult the chair of Peter, and to turn to a church whose faith has been praised by Paul...My words are spoken to the successor of the fisherman, to the disciple of the cross." Jerome, To Pope Damasus, Epistle 15 (A.D. 377).

“For if when here he loved men so, that when he [Peter] had the choice of departing and being with Christ, he chose to be here, much more will he there display a warmer affection. I love Rome even for this, although indeed one has other grounds for praising it, both for its greatness, and its antiquity, and its beauty, and its populousness, and for its power, and its wealth, and for its successes in war. But I let all this pass, and esteem it blessed on this account, that both in his lifetime he wrote to them, and loved them so, and talked with them whiles he was with us, and brought his life to a close there.” John Chrysostom, Epistle to the Romans, Homily 32 (c. A.D. 391).

"Which was mere to the interest of the Church at Rome, that it should at its commencement be presided over by some high-born and pompous senator, or by the fisherman Peter, who had none of this world's advantages to attract men to him?" Gregory of Nyssa, To the Church at Nicodemia, Epistle 13 (ante A.D. 394).

"But some people in some countries of the West, and especially in the city, [Rome] not knowing the reason of this indulgence, think that a dispensation from fasting ought certainly not to be allowed On the Sabbath, because they say that on this day the Apostle Peter fasted before his encounter with Simon [Magus]." John Cassian, Institutes, X (ante A.D. 435).

"The whole world, dearly-beloved, does indeed take part in all holy anniversaries [of Peter & Paul], and loyalty to the one Faith demands that whatever is recorded as done for all men's salvation should be everywhere celebrated with common rejoicings. But, besides that reverence which to-day's festival has gained from all the world, it is to be honoured with special and peculiar exultation in our city, that there may be a predominance of gladness on the day of their martyrdom in the place where the chief of the Apostles met their glorious end. For these are the men, through whom the light of Christ's gospel shone on thee, O Rome, and through whom thou, who wast the teacher of error, wast made the disciple of Truth.” Pope Leo the Great (regn. A.D. 440-461), Sermon LXXXII (ante A.D. 461).

 

[SpyderByte]

The Peter syndrome loud and proud....say anything nice about Peter, even if it contradicts what you're trying to say, and it's suddenly proof that Peter was pope...

Josiah, it looks like the early Christians do not agree with you Josiah.

"Through envy and jealousy, the greatest and most righteous pillars [of the Church] have been persecuted and put to death. Let us set before our eyes the illustrious apostles. Peter, through unrighteous envy, endured not one or two, but numerous labours and when he had at length suffered martyrdom, departed to the place of glory due to him." Clement of Rome, The First Epistle of Clement, 5 (c. A.D. 96).

Yup, the Jews put Peter to death. Doesn't say he was pope or head of the church.

"I do not, as Peter and Paul, issue commandments unto you." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Romans, 4 (c. A.D. 110).

I really hate out of context quotes, but I'll deal with it as you have it here; note he mentions both Peter AND Paul. Why? Because they were apostles, and Ignatius was not.

'You have thus by such an admonition bound together the plantings of Peter and Paul at Rome and Corinth." Dionysius of Corinth, Epistle to Pope Soter, fragment in Eusebius' Church History, II:25 (c. A.D. 178).

"Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:1:1 (c. A.D. 180).

Again, see how Paul is mentioned as well? Seeing a pattern yet?

"As Peter had preached the Word publicly at Rome, and declared the Gospel by the Spirit, many who were present requested that Mark, who had followed him for a long time and remembered his sayings, should write them out." Clement of Alexandria, fragment in Eusebius Church History, VI:14,6 (A.D. 190)

Ok, this says he preached in Rome, so did Paul, so did others. Still waiting for that ecf that said Peter was the head of the church...

snip

More nice stuff said about Peter, and nothing about him being the head of the church until perhaps sometime 300 years after his death... have you seen the pattern yet Barry? It isn't until centuries AFTER he died that the idea of Peter as head of the church developed.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Capitalised or not the creed affirms one and exactly one church that is holy, catholic and apostolic and even though some want to affirm their membership in this church yet they choose to deny her teaching and refuse submission to her as the bride of Christ and as the body of the faithful. Such persons need to affirm their own holiness while condemning the one holy catholic and apostolic church. That's a sign of the times is it not? That people would seek teachers to say what they want to hear and so satisfy their itching ears.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Capitalised or not the creed affirms one and exactly one church that is holy, catholic and apostolic

Correct. It affirms NOTHING about the individual, unique RC Denomination....

Correct. It affirms NOTHING about the very Roman obsession with POWER, Dictatorship, Lording it over all as the Gentiles do, exempting self from accountability.

refuse submission to her as the bride of Christ and as the body of the faithful.

The church is the bride - it submits to Christ. This RC Denominational obsession with all submitting to itself is quite the antithesis of that.

Such persons need to affirm their own holiness while condemning the one holy catholic and apostolic church. That's a sign of the times is it not?

It can be seen in the RCC (and early LDS) but not generally elsewhere. It's the individual RC Denomination that seems obsessed with this docilic submission of all to it itself as unto God Himself. CCC 87. "The Authority of the Church" by LDS Apostle/Prophet Bruce McConkie.

The men would seek teachers to say what they want to hear and so satisfy their itching ears.

Perhaps that's why the RCC itself acknowledges only one authority - itself.




Thank you.


pax


- Josiah

 

[Gunny]

Gunny, maybe you forgot that Jesus passed on all of His power and Authority to His Apostles.

No sir, I have not forgotten, but thank-you for bringing your statement to my attention.


"For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority".

Colossians 2:9
NIV

 

[Root of Jesse]

"Small stone". Jesus uses the word that means "rock bed" when He said "on this rock"...

Baloney. Peter is the Greek for Kepha, the Aramaic for rock. Peter was the Rock that Jesus built the Church on.

 

[Root of Jesse]

At which time he became a living stone that are a unique priesthood, a godly kingdom, forming the new Jerusalem, that Peter was one stone in twelve that built the foundation.

But there are not twelve cornerstones.

 

[Gunny]

"How good and pleasant it is when brothers live together in unity".

Psalm 133:1

 

[Root of Jesse]

Saint Peter is both an elder and an apostle of Christ as well as the Rock upon which the church is built and a saint of God. These titles are not exclusive. One can be all these things if one happens to be saint Peter.

Right on. Or those who succeeded him.

 

[Root of Jesse]

This ^

Sorry, Sunlover. You forget that Peter is the English of the Greek of the Aramaic.

Jesus called Simon 'Kephas'. Which doesn't speak of the size of the stone at all.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Sorry, Sunlover. You forget that Peter is the English of the Greek of the Aramaic.

Jesus called Simon 'Kephas'. Which doesn't speak of the size of the stone at all.

Strong's Concordance
Képhas: "a rock," Cephas, a name given to the apostle Peter
Original Word: Κηφᾶς, ᾶ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: Képhas
Phonetic Spelling: (kay-fas')
Short Definition: Cephas
Definition: Cephas (Aramaic for rock), the new name given to Simon Peter, the apostle.