Submission & Headship

[~Zao~]

In the Bible people were lead by God through birds and donkeys, you must have a really low view of husbands.

I have no problem giving honour where honour is due and fear where fear is due.

 

[topher694]

I have no problem giving honour where honour is due and fear where fear is due.

How about humor where humor is due?

 

[~Zao~]

How about humor where humor is due?

On such a serious topic! Oh no! If you study the progression of God’s moves with His people you would only want to cry at the lack of faith in Him.

 

[bèlla]

I don't work, although working outside the home isnt an issue for him, I could if I could, but I'm disabled and that's enough on my plate so I don't work.

That’s understandable. You’ve been blessed with a godly provider.

He makes the final decision on any major decision we can't agree on, and we agreed to that before we got married.

I’m comfortable doing the same. I acknowledge my desire for leadership and wisdom in my companion for that reason. I don’t have all the answers and don’t need to carry the ball. I have enough responsibility.

I decided that if it's going to be the wrong decision, I'd rather he carry that weight. I carry enough and he can carry that load. It's what he was made for, and I think far better suited to that than me..

I will take my share of lumps in deference to the union. But when the rubber meets the road I want him to make the call. You won’t get every one right. But I will support him nonetheless.

And so we had this conversation before we ever got married and both agreed to it. And he really is better suited to this stress.

In many ways that’s a respite. I’m always in charge and decisions land at my door. If I had to take the lead in a relationship it would be too much.

And I have to balance the realities of my growth. Being pliable offsets the other side that’s results-driven and pursuing excellence. This is a different kind of service.

I do the cooking and baking, and he comes home for his lunch break and eats a home cooked meal daily, except for the one day a week when he takes me out to dinner...

Wow! Your homemaking skills are very good. Home for lunch? I love it!

It's a very traditional marriage I suppose, but it would work even if I worked.

I think so too. You sound fulfilled. My inner Martha Stewart is smiling. ;-)

 

[topher694]

On such a serious topic! Oh no!

 

[~Zao~]

View attachment 262473

How about you just answer the question of how does a man portray Christ to His wife that will effectually save her?

 

[Endeavourer]

Thank you for the detailed, thought provoking reply, LaBella. I'm still processing it.

To make sure I understand this:

But when I answered your question something troubled me. It wasn’t the book in itself. I enjoyed it.

.

Is the book you are referencing L&R, mentioned in my OP on the other thread?

 

[topher694]

How about you just answer the question of how does a man portray Christ to His wife that will effectually save her?

Well ideally they are both already saved before they become husband and wife.

You're conflating different biblical principles.

 

[~Zao~]

Well ideally they are both already saved before they become husband and wife.

You're conflating different biblical principles.

You mean confusing law with grace? Before one is a Christian one can be led to Christ by another, which is my opinion of what Paul outlined. Christ being the bridegroom and Paul leading the bride to Him. But after conversion there is no mediator but Christ. I don’t care how you conflate them 1+1=2 then 2 becomes 1.

 

[bèlla]

Thank you for the detailed, thought provoking reply, LaBella. I'm still processing it.

Thank you. That was more for you personally than the thread.

Is the book you are referencing L&R, mentioned in my OP on the other thread?

Yes.

 

[-Sasha-]

I can't speak to the headship question, because I'm not in that role. As far as submission goes, I would say that an important aspect is that it is a voluntarily accepted role. If it has been forced upon someone, or they have been coerced into it, it would become a point of contention and resentment. In my experience, it's incredibly necessary to have one of the two parties in a disagreement be willing to yield to the other... and not in an exasperated "Fine, have it your way!" manner.

 

[bèlla]

Hmm, not sure how I feel about the matter. Being a sadist I often get misidentified as someone who desires a very "submissive" woman. When in reality I don't have any specific desire to take the "leadership" role. Nor do I feel like my masculinity is challenged for not doing so.

I’m really glad you replied and shared this. I think that notion is common. Your admission reveals this goes deeper than faith which I suspected.

For better or worse I think many couples would be happier if they took on a less "egalitarian" type of relationship.

I flourished most in relationships where I had the guidance and input I desired from my companion. My regard for them was demonstratively different too. I don’t want a man to parent me.

But I’m willing to admit my perspective isn’t the only one I can learn from. His experiences won’t mirror my own and I’m bettered through his addition. Oftentimes he sees things I can’t or won’t.

And practically speaking, I’m always the cheerleader. I’m the one giving encouragement or motivating others. I appreciate a companion who offers the same, gives a nudge or correction when needed.

Eventually most couples grow cold and distant from one another. Where the allure of being "submissive" is no longer appealing for many women.

Do you think its possible to prevent it?

Occasionally the wife will check to make sure the children were not on fire (if the children were even home at all).

I’ve seen that a lot online. Oftentimes I forgot the person was married with children. They behaved like singles.

Once in a while the man will make a quip about how he does more work than the wife. He'll be met with scorn and have to apologize and maybe even concede that she does more work than him and he should start helping with the small amount of house hold chores she has to do.

Oy. Not good.

On paper the conservative Christian men I grew up around made the decisions. In reality they had to talk it over with their wives first. If she did not like the decision it was a no go, lol.

Yes, I noticed it at church. The bible studies were eye opening. They were groaning when we discussed submission. And a friend warned me off of working as the wedding coordinator because of their disdain for domestic labor.

The men were weak, it was just all a game. It sickens me to the stomach thinking about the idea that I might someday turn into one of these men. What a depressing life.

I don’t think you will. Asking questions, facing your fears and confronting your dichotomies is the remedy. It takes a lot of courage for you to be here and admit the things you have. I respect it.

 

[topher694]

You mean confusing law with grace? Before one is a Christian one can be led to Christ by another, which is my opinion of what Paul outlined. Christ being the bridegroom and Paul leading the bride to Him. But after conversion there is no mediator but Christ. I don’t care how you conflate them 1+1=2 then 2 becomes 1.

I mean confusing:
submission with salvation.
fruit with salvation.
wisdom with... salvation.

You're just really all over the place today aren't you?

 

[bèlla]

These days I see more and more young men drift towards more conservative viewpoints (probably in a response to hypocritical sjws).

I think there’s a lot of frustration and that concerns me. Some are angry, ready to quit, or zoning out and I don’t think either are good. I prefer a population of healthy men and women authentically in pursuit of betterment.

But the narrow definitions society affixes and its rejection of those who fall outsides those lines is taking a toll. Men aren’t superman and women can’t do it all. We have to work from our capacity.

Even looking back to the 1950s people like to cite Leave It To Beaver, yet when I watch the Honeymooners relationships were portrayed as more complex than simply "woman submissive" and "man dominate".

Things weren’t as easy as most believe or a utopia either.

 

[Endeavourer]

Eventually most couples grow cold and distant from one another.

Do you think its possible to prevent it?

Yes, most absolutely. Don't ever settle for this outcome.

 

[bèlla]

Thank you for the kind regard toward my thoughts. I am truly interested in *your* answer to my question because I appreciate your unique and intellectual perspective in your posts.

Thank you for the compliment and for contributing.

IF both parties are offering the fruits of the Spirit and forsaking the fruits of darkness in their relationship. The fruits of the Spirit do not lead one party to demand at the expense of the other.

We’re on the same page. I cannot coerce someone to lead me and he can’t make me follow him. That alignment must be consensual and divinely founded.

We both would say whatever we have, we are deeply in love with each other and every day deepens our gratitude to be married to each other.

That is a beautiful testimony of love and grace!

When I help abused women in my marriage ministry, I don't focus on this topic at all (unless it's a whip the husband keeps using at her) because in the end, if the husband will offer her the fruits of the Spirit (and forsake the fruits of darkness), the marriage will be transformed into a union both exquisitely enjoy (like mine).

Precisely. It is compelled. He draws it out of her and she from him. It is a mutual transformation.

I work with the couple to offer each other the fruits of the Spirit and train them to recognize the fruits of darkness whether in themselves or in the other so they can protect their marriage against these fruits. The fruits of darkness destroy love.

This is blessing me and confirming.much. Yes to everything you said!

I found a system and a language at marriagebuilders.com that puts all of this into great context and practice so, as you may have noticed, I'm a frequent advocate of articles written from that site to encourage couples to learn how to offer the fruits of the Spirit and forsake the fruits of darkness.

I like their site. I seriously considered being a marriage therapist given my passion for the subject. But abuse would injure my spirit. It would hurt me deeply to see that degree of harm on a continual basis.

But I promised the Lord I would use what He’s given me and encourage others for His glory.

Have you written up your thoughts on Paul’s approach?

Ultimately, I view the patient as being the marriage, not the doctrines. I have a high view of saving marriages if at all possible, but not at the expense of the victim if there is one.

That’s understandable. But as you’ve said there must be a willingness to change and operate in the right fruit.

Thanks again for your graciousness on these forums. I always enjoy reading your responses.

Thank you for expounding. You have helped me a great deal. I am blessed because you shared your heart. ~hugs

 

[bèlla]

As far as submission goes, I would say that an important aspect is that it is a voluntarily accepted role.

Absolutely! Bad things happen when we oppose our will on others forcibly.

In my experience, it's incredibly necessary to have one of the two parties in a disagreement be willing to yield to the other... and not in an exasperated "Fine, have it your way!" manner.

Preach!

 

[nanookadenord]

But the narrow definitions society affixes and its rejection of those who fall outsides those lines is taking a toll. Men aren’t superman and women can’t do it all. We have to work from our capacity.

Don't I know it!

I have my mom and uncle hounding me saying I need to better myself so I can get ahead in this world. In order for me to better myself, I need to go back to school.

I am forty-four and soon to be forty-five. I am no longer in my twenties or even my thirties. It takes me longer to recover from the 24 hour shifts that I do for work. So, add in school, which I would have to go to during the day as my work schedule doesn't allow for night classes so much. With not working a 24 hour shift, if I work three 12 hour shifts, I would be in school, then go to work, then go to school and then go to work, then go to school and work. Where would I have time to sleep let alone studying?

I am not superman and I cannot do it all or stay awake for four days straight. Something would have to give and it would probably be me mentally.

 

[~Zao~]

I mean confusing:
submission with salvation.
fruit with salvation.
wisdom with... salvation.

You're just really all over the place today aren't you?

No I’m not. In fact my replies have been very consistent.

 

[Endeavourer]

Thank you for the compliment and for contributing.

My pleasure! Your posts certainly enrich my experience on this forum.

We’re on the same page. I cannot coerce someone to lead me and he can’t make me follow him. That alignment must be consensual and divinely founded.

Ah! So this just clarified your position for me cleared up some of my confusion with your intentions vis a vis the clear intellect and dignity of your will shown in your other posts.

Your embrace of the term is in line with Paul's writings, which were revolutionary at the time because culturally, women did not have a choice to submit but were mandated by law and custom. Pharisaical expansions of the law even labelled the voice of a woman as shameful.

Paul turns that on his head and gives the woman her agency back so she is the actor in her own submission, and limits her submission only in the bounds of what is "unto the Lord". Paul gives no verses to the husband that would allow him to coerce, extract, demand or in any other way finagle the woman's submission.

In our day Paul's verses can seem to be smacking the woman down in a lower place but the reality is Paul is freeing the woman to own her own submission and gift it as she wills, and only as unto the Lord.

When many people hear the word "submission", they hear "coerced submission" or "mandated submission", or framings along that line. This is because the submission crowd often frames submission as a duty of the wife, sometimes even an unconditional duty, with her agency to participate in any consensus with her husband now removed. Her participation in consensus hereinafter is only at her husband's benevolence due to his superior position in the divine order of headship.

So, you are personally convicted to follow the "submission" model, but your expectations of of "submission" are vastly different than the "submission" experienced, and even demanded, by many of the submission crowd in this debate. As you have been a witness, discussions of submission often turn very ugly on this board, with a cavalcade of men chiming in to demand the woman's obeisance as their Biblical entitlement, along with 51% (effectively 100%) of a say in all of the decisions in the home. I always REALLY appreciate all the men who join in to combat their unBiblical stampede.

Though wearying, I still speak up in those threads as a ministry to abused women who are reading them, and internalizing their Bible-y-ese as of God, so the abused can hopefully accept a glimmer of a nudge to reconsider their worldview. I know from my own experience that it takes 1,000 nudges to add up to enough of a shake to actually awake my intellect that a deeply held understanding of doctrine that I had been brainwashed to thinking "is so plain" in the Bible may perhaps have some defects in it....even though the defects in practice were about to destroy my health and had already destroyed much of my dignity and sense of ownership of my own personhood.

Often when abused women subjugated under that false doctrine hear "submission", they are hearing coerced, enforced submission that a husband is now entitled to not only receive, but enforce!

Your rendering of the concept is in line with Paul's writings. It is a gift you give to your husband, as unto the Lord, but you will see that in a beautiful relationship with a believer that offers the fruits of the Spirit, your husband will not want to gain at your expense and will esteem others better than self, so the outcome is that you are both submitting to each other in function (Eph 5:21). This is not to say that you don't acquiesce to areas of his strength (and as well, he to yours), but you do so because you choose to trust his leadership in that area. Or even choose to trust his leadership in many areas.

That is a beautiful testimony of love and grace!

Thank you!! We are so very happy in our marriage and it is absolutely possible for any couple to be the same as long as one of them is not a perpetrator with a character defect. Such people rarely change, sadly.

We believe that behaviors are easier to change than feelings, so we honor each other's feelings with changes in our behaviors. This enables our romantic love to continue growing and deepening.

Wrt the L&R book, Eggerich's paradigm will not develop and grow romantic love in a marriage. That's another topic but the marital mechanics he describes are so vastly different than those we follow in our marriage. If we followed his mechanics we would certainly not be in honeymoonish, romantic swooning love with each other. I don't know of any L&R marriages that are. That would be a longer post, but there are many reasons why that is so.

This is blessing me and confirming.much. Yes to everything you said!

Thank you!! Amen!

I like their site. I seriously considered being a marriage therapist given my passion for the subject. But abuse would injure my spirit. It would hurt me deeply to see that degree of harm on a continual basis.

But I promised the Lord I would use what He’s given me and encourage others for His glory.

We all have our different callings. Suffering 25 years of abuse due to twisted perceptions of doctrines injured my spirit. Now that I'm strong again, I feel a irresistible calling to minister to other believers who are entombed in a covenant of death under the same doctrines.

Have you written up your thoughts on Paul’s approach?

I have written my thoughts with respect to my understanding of the first half of 1 Cor 11. My study in that area involved searching out whether women are to wear hats to church, as my denomination at the time required women to do. They were tying the concept to 1 Cor 11:3, headship and hats being a sign of submission. My discomfort with the idea grew until I finally had to study it out for myself, as the pain of displaying a symbol of man's abuse on my head in order to go to church became a distraction to my worship.

Thank you for expounding. You have helped me a great deal. I am blessed because you shared your heart. ~hugs

Thanks! I've been blessed by your posts as well. I always enjoy your participation in discussions.