Submission & Headship

[bèlla]

What does submission and headship mean to you? How do you serve your partner and where do you struggle? Singles may address the question as service unto the Lord instead.

This is an honest discussion on biblical submission and headship. It is an opportunity for participants to share their perspective and practices to enrich the reader. I welcome comments from believers from all traditions. I look forward to your replies.

 

[AlexDTX]

What does submission and headship mean to you? How do you serve your partner and where do you struggle? Singles may address the question as service unto the Lord instead.

This is a honest discussion on biblical submission and headship. It is an opportunity for participants to share their perspective and practices to enrich the reader. I welcome comments from believers from all traditions. I look forward to your replies.

In my marriage we have a ménage de trois (I speak tongue in cheek) with the three of us forming the marriage: Jesus, me and my wife. Because Jesus is the head of the marriage, we try to practice mutual submission. We know that He has given us each different strengths and weaknesses. For example, my wife is much better at handling money than I am. I always defer to her decisions, which is not autocratic on her part since we discuss the money matters together. But she has always had a better head for math than me. She also understood finances better than me. When we married, at her insistence, we agreed to live debt free. A decision that has given us much greater freedom and much bigger savings.

On the other hand, I am a natural researcher and I am much more literate. While she may not initially agree with my worldview, she usually submits to my points of view trusting my studies. I also have a stronger comprehension of the love of the Father than she does. It is one thing to have an intellectual acceptance that God loves us, it is another to have a deep experiential realization of that love. Parents make a difference. Her father was distant and aloof, more focused on making money than being a parent. Obviously, this is where she learned money management. But my father, although divorced, showed his love for me by consistent visits and physical embraces.

Back to submission and headship. Jesus is the head of our marriage and we submit to one another as we each recognize in whom the hand of the Lord moves.

 

[~Zao~]

What does submission and headship mean to you? How do you serve your partner and where do you struggle? Singles may address the question as service unto the Lord instead.

A very apt description of why Paul suggested staying single because they are the ones that have time for the Lord. Spiritually speaking, those of single vs double mindedness. All is for the Lord and practising loving others does not mean being under anyone but God’s headship.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Well I believe in it. Probably

What does submission and headship mean to you? How do you serve your partner and where do you struggle? Singles may address the question as service unto the Lord instead.

This is a honest discussion on biblical submission and headship. It is an opportunity for participants to share their perspective and practices to enrich the reader. I welcome comments from believers from all traditions. I look forward to your replies.

I believe in complimentarian position, but I think in actual practice most of the time they should not look much different than an egalitarian set up. There are lot of variables based on things like personality, and specific skills, talents, etc. where one spouse is better off deferring to another that has that skill etc. in their wheelhouse.

 

[Dave-W]

I am not sure this is an allowed discussion. But I will let the mods sort that one out.

As for me, I was raised in extreme patriarchy. My dad had a view of women that was similar early to mid 1800s slave status. Which I find ironic since he was an ordained pastor in the very first denomination to ordain women; (1850s) the Wesleyan Methodists.

I saw the outcome of that bad attitude when he almost killed my mom during a fight.

Then I saw another extreme patriarchy in my college congregation that not only insisted on complete obedience from wife to husband but also from congregant to elders/pastors. I also saw bad outcome of that when the marriages the elders approved/arranged started erupting at the seams some 5 years on.

I have seen other forms in other congregations as well. And I have seen enough that i absolutely hate it. So I have ended up very firmly in the egalitarian camp. My wife has suffered the scorn of both congregational leaders and congregants that she is not "submissive enough." I have done all I could to shield her from that criticism. (only partly successful)

As to how submission and headship are understood in the modern western church, it is VERY damaging to women. Perhaps this is another area of understanding that was lost over the last 2000 years and cultures half a world away.

Until God restores an ACCURATE understanding of what those terms are supposed to look like, we (my wife and I) will go with just hashing things out between the 2 of us until we agree.

 

[bèlla]

A very apt description of why Paul suggested staying single because they are the ones that have time for the Lord.

You are correct. It is much easier to pursue my purpose while I’m single. I needn’t worry that I’m neglecting others or have to relinquish my time. I think this is frequently forgotten when we’re alone.

 

[bèlla]

Because Jesus is the head of the marriage, we try to practice mutual submission. We know that He has given us each different strengths and weaknesses.

Thank you for sharing your examples. That is what I’d hoped to see in the thread. And the parental elements you included are important. They impact our relationships and perspective. I’ve seen that with myself.

 

[~Zao~]

You are correct. It is much easier to pursue my purpose while I’m single. I needn’t worry that I’m neglecting others or have to relinquish my time. I think this is frequently forgotten when we’re alone.

Alone but never lonely. The part of the post that you didn’t quote is most important to keep in mind "Spiritually speaking, those of single vs double mindedness. All is for the Lord and practising loving others does not mean being under anyone but God’s headship.”

There’s an awesome word study that can be done on being a double-minded person. Here’s a sample 7 Characteristics of a Double-Minded Believer

 

[bèlla]

There are lot of variables based on things like personality, and specific skills, talents, etc. where one spouse is better off deferring to another that has that skill etc. in their wheelhouse.

My welcome statement is inclusive. I want to hear from everyone. I like the parallel you made between the two. And I agree that utilizing each other’s strengths is best.

 

[bèlla]

I am not sure this is an allowed discussion. But I will let the mods sort that one out.

Why?

Then I saw another extreme patriarchy in my college congregation that not only insisted on complete obedience from wife to husband

I don’t believe that is formed without. Nor do I believe a man’s heartfelt desire to lead equates to dominance or domineering behaviors. And the woman’s desire to submit isn’t subservience or weakness. That is the wrong spirit.

My wife has suffered the scorn of both congregational leaders and congregants that she is not "submissive enough." I have done all I could to shield her from that criticism. (only partly successful)

The idea for this thread came to mind yesterday. Partially for the reasons you shared and as an outgrowth of two others I’ve commented on.

God didn’t knit us identically. There are attributes you possess that I lack and the reverse is true. But their absence doesn’t diminish our standing with Him. I’m beginning to question whether some are exalting rare qualities and insisting upon their adoption for all.

As to how submission and headship are understood in the modern western church, it is VERY damaging to women.

I don’t believe most women have the disposition that some are championing. I didn’t come to this way of being through the church. Its innate and woven in my person. My heart compels me to question whether we’re putting expectations on one another that were never His intention.

 

[nanookadenord]

I am divorced, but how it played out and will play out in my next marriage is per Ephesians 5:21.

If we cannot agree, then the issue/matter gets tabled, we discuss it again in a couple hours or days and if we still cannot agree then the issue/matter gets dropped. Because if we cannot agree, then that wasn't something needed in our lives.

I have never been the type to ask for submission from my other half. I don't want the role of ultimate decision maker. I want someone where we can make decisions together. If that decision cannot be made, I defer to the what I mentioned above. My ex-wife would go back and forth between the above, and wanting me to make the decision for the both of us. Since I am not that kind of person, I would always refer to what I wrote above, which of course made her unhappy with me. There were many things that made her unhappy with me, hence the reason she divorced me.

Thankfully, my girlfriend believes as I do, so that will not be an issue in the future.

 

[nanookadenord]

My heart compels me to question whether we’re putting expectations on one another that were never His intention.

For me, it was the expectation that I was the leader in my marriage, and I couldn't fulfill that role as that is not who I am.

So, I can see what you're saying above.

 

[Dave-W]

Why?

I seem to recall that discussions involving submission were not allowed a few years back after some really heated exchanges.

 

[bèlla]

Alone but never lonely. The part of the post that you didn’t quote is most important to keep in mind "Spiritually speaking, those of single vs double mindedness. All is for the Lord and practising loving others does not mean being under anyone but God’s headship.”

I didn’t overlook it. I have spoken on finding fulfillment in God and the contentment and peace which follows. But I didn’t touch on it in your response.

I’m aware my ability to do so (without hardship or complaint) has a lot to do with the topic we’re discussing and I don’t want to emphasize that.

This thread is meant to demonstrate how the respondents have navigated a difficult subject. And its my hope the reader will come away feeling strengthened by their replies.

 

[bèlla]

I seem to recall that discussions involving submission were not allowed a few years back after some really heated exchanges.

I have intentionally phrased the OP to avert that and provide a welcome space for all perspectives.

 

[Dave-W]

Nor do I believe a man’s heartfelt desire to lead equates to dominance or domineering behaviors. And the woman’s desire to submit isn’t subservience or weakness. That is the wrong spirit.

What I have seen is the church leaders and the husbands have taken those godly desires and let the flesh (fallen nature) distort them into something that can become horrific. And it is in DIRECT opposition to our Lord's command:

Luke 22:25 NASB
And He said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who have authority over them are called ‘Benefactors.’ 26 But it is not this way with you, but the one who is the greatest among you must become like the youngest, and the leader like the servant.​

 

[Dave-W]

God didn’t knit us identically. There are attributes you possess that I lack and the reverse is true. But their absence doesn’t diminish our standing with Him. I’m beginning to question whether some are exalting rare qualities and insisting upon their adoption for all.

Indeed. But part of the problem is the idea that "unity" means uniformity. I am finding that attitude to be legalistic and even cultic and controlling.

the church (or the family) is not supposed to be a bunch of goose-stepping nazi soldiers in lock step precision.

 

[Hazelelponi]

My husband is king of the castle because I said he could be..

 

[bèlla]

If we cannot agree, then the issue/matter gets tabled, we discuss it again in a couple hours or days and if we still cannot agree then the issue/matter gets dropped.

I am not a fan of strife and find few reasons why arguments are justified. Cooling your heels is a wise approach.

I don't want the role of ultimate decision maker. I want someone where we can make decisions together.

I appreciate your honesty. Its refreshing. I don’t you’re alone in that on either side. I suspect men aren’t given the grace to say what you have without a negative response.

 

[topher694]

Most people, including Christians, get the concept of biblical submission between a husband and wife completely upside down. Which, God actually predicted right after the fall, so it should come as no surprise. True submission actually puts more responsibility and emphasis on the one being submitted to that the one doing the submitting.

Biblical submission is NOT:

• My way or the highway
• Blind obedience
• Wives can't have an opinion or speak up
• Enduring behavior that does not line up with Godly principles

Biblical submission:

• Starts with God's standard. How can you submit to God while being asked to submit to something that is not of God?
• This means that it requires the one being submitted to to embrace and example that standard. This is also where headship comes in.
• So, biblical submission in marriage means wives should be supportive of their husbands when they are following godly principles.
• This actually requires dialog about what is right and wrong.

It is really as simple as that. With that criteria Christian wives should be happy to submit. But in reality, just as men have corrupted it, wives are not always supportive of husbands doing the right thing. I have seen it first hand.

Say a husband is told to lie to a client at work. He refuses to do so an puts his job at risk. Submission says wives should be supportive of that (this example goes both ways), but I know of cases like this where wives have gotten mad at the husband for putting his job in jeopardy by sticking to Godly morals.


Here is a simple, but effective example of how headship and submission should work:

Say a husband and wife get into a heated argument (*gasp* never happens) and it keeps spiraling more and more out of control (yelling, name calling, bringing up past events that have already been forgiven... we have all done it). Both parties are convinced they are right and are very emotional and neither wants to back down. The responsibility of submission and headship says to the husband, it is YOUR responsibility to end this cycle, God's way. So, the husband might just stop and say, "ok, we just need to stop this right now and pray together and ask God for guidance". The wife's responsibility would then be to submit to that because it is a Godly decision. Neither party WANTS to do that in the moment... they probably want to make their next point... but that's the responsibility of submission. That doesn't mean that the scenario can't play out the other way, it can, and if it does that's totally fine. But God is saying I'm asking you husbands to take responsibility in this situation, to be the one to recognize what is happening, and the one to take the initiative. Then when he does, wives your responsibility is to not ignore him and keep the argument going, but to follow suit.