Submission & Headship

[Hazelelponi]

Christian ... what are you Baal?

Christ is my King, as He came into His Kingdom..

I don't understand the way your speaking.. at all.. Ive never heard "final outcome" and such..

 

[~Zao~]

Christ is my King, as He came into His Kingdom..

I don't understand the way your speaking.. at all.. Ive never heard "final outcome" and such..

It's sounds like denial of His authority kind of language..

The only denial of authority is to that assumed authority that places itself between God and His people, which is ONLY Christ, the mediator between God and mankind.

 

[Hazelelponi]

The only denial of authority is to that assumed authority that places itself between God and His people, which is ONLY Christ, the mediator between God and mankind.

I don't understand you.. it sounds new age or something.

Why do you not see Christ as King?

 

[~Zao~]

I don't understand you.. it sounds new age or something.

Why do you not see Christ as King?

Christ is King because of humans hardness of heart toward the Father Himself. Christ leads back to the Father, not to another substitute.

 

[MehGuy]

Hmm, not sure how I feel about the matter. Being a sadist I often get misidentified as someone who desires a very "submissive" woman. When in reality I don't have any specific desire to take the "leadership" role. Nor do I feel like my masculinity is challenged for not doing so.

From my studying of evolutionary psychology there does seem to be a theme where men take on a more "parental" role and women a more "childlike" role. This doesn't have to equate to "leader" and "submissive" but I can see how it often does. If you analyze what men and women find physically and psychologically attractive about one another there does seem to be a logic behind it. For better or worse I think many couples would be happier if they took on a less "egalitarian" type of relationship.

Although this probably only applies when the couples are actually still physically attracted to one another. Eventually most couples grow cold and distant from one another. Where the allure of being "submissive" is no longer appealing for many women. I grew up in a conservative Christian environment where the man took on the "leadership" position and the women the "submissive" position. When in reality it was mostly a farce.

The leader would slave all day at work while the women would stay at home watching trashy Lifetime films, which mostly centered around men with chiseled good looks manhandling women. Occasionally the wife will check to make sure the children were not on fire (if the children were even home at all). Once in a while the man will make a quip about how he does more work than the wife. He'll be met with scorn and have to apologize and maybe even concede that she does more work than him and he should start helping with the small amount of house hold chores she has to do.

On paper the conservative Christian men I grew up around made the decisions. In reality they had to talk it over with their wives first. If she did not like the decision it was a no go, lol.

The men were weak, it was just all a game. It sickens me to the stomach thinking about the idea that I might someday turn into one of these men. What a depressing life.

 

[bèlla]

the church (or the family) is not supposed to be a bunch of goose-stepping nazi soldiers in lock step precision.

I concur. I don’t think we’re encouraged to appreciate and respect our differences. That creates an oppressive environment over time.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Christ is King because of humans hardness of heart toward the Father Himself. Christ leads back to the Father, not to another substitute.

Revelation 19:16
And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

 

[~Zao~]

Hmm, not sure how I feel about the matter. Being a sadist I often get misidentified as someone who desires a very "submissive" woman. When in reality I don't have any specific desire to take the "leadership" role. Nor do I feel like my masculinity is challenged for not doing so.

From my studying of evolutionary psychology there does seem to be a theme where men take on a more "parental" role and women a more "childlike" role. This doesn't have to equate to "leader" and "submissive" but I can see how it often does. If you analyze what men and women find physically and psychologically attractive about one another there does seem to be a logic behind it. For better or worse I think many couples would be happier if they took on a less "egalitarian" type of relationship.

Although this probably only applies when the couples are actually still physically attracted to one another. Eventually most couples grow cold and distant from one another. Where the allure of being "submissive" is no longer appealing for many women. I grew up in a conservative Christian environment where the man took on the "leadership" position and the women the "submissive" position. When in reality it was mostly a farce.

The leader would slave all day at work while the women would stay at home watching trashy Lifetime films, which mostly centered around men with chiseled good looks manhandling women. Occasionally the wife will check to make sure the children were not on fire (if the children were even home at all). Once in a while the man will make a quip about how he does more work than the wife. He'll be met with scorn and have to apologize and maybe even concede that she does more work than him and he should start helping with the small amount of house hold chores she has to do.

On paper the conservative Christian men I grew up around made the decisions. In reality they had to talk it over with their wives first. If she did not like the decision it was a no go, lol.

The men were weak, it was just all a game. It sickens me to the stomach thinking about the idea that I might someday turn into one of these men. What a depressing life.

I think you hit the nail on the head about parent/child relationships where adult/adult is the fact. Who decides who is the parent and who is the child or is assessing the gifts of each as to functions more common sense, assuming we are all adults here.

 

[Endeavourer]

The purpose of this thread isn't to promote either. I hoped you'd respond and planned to send a note if you didn't asking for your input. It is honestly an outgrowth of something that was on my heart yesterday and part of the reason why I felt it was better I didn't comment on your thread in the manner I intended.

And if you see the messages I've replied to thus far and OP the intention is clear. Love and grace are at the heart of it.

Thank you for the kind regard toward my thoughts. I am truly interested in *your* answer to my question because I appreciate your unique and intellectual perspective in your posts.

Here are my takes on the two areas:
Submission: While this is a heavily laden word for many, my personal experience is that a marriage where the husband believes in submission/headship is identical to a marriage where the wife believes in mutual equality IF both parties are offering the fruits of the Spirit and forsaking the fruits of darkness in their relationship. The fruits of the Spirit do not lead one party to demand at the expense of the other. This is the case in my marriage. My husband would say we have a headship/submission marriage; I would say we have an egalitarian marriage - although we are both describing the same entity. We both would say whatever we have, we are deeply in love with each other and every day deepens our gratitude to be married to each other.

When I help abused women in my marriage ministry, I don't focus on this topic at all (unless it's a whip the husband keeps using at her) because in the end, if the husband will offer her the fruits of the Spirit (and forsake the fruits of darkness), the marriage will be transformed into a union both exquisitely enjoy (like mine). I work with the couple to offer each other the fruits of the Spirit and train them to recognize the fruits of darkness whether in themselves or in the other so they can protect their marriage against these fruits. The fruits of darkness destroy love.

I found a system and a language at marriagebuilders.com that puts all of this into great context and practice so, as you may have noticed, I'm a frequent advocate of articles written from that site to encourage couples to learn how to offer the fruits of the Spirit and forsake the fruits of darkness.

Headship: For my part, I can't see how the concept of 'headship' as taught today fits with the rest of Scripture. First of all, none of the texts about the mechanics of God's grace or his relationship to us depend on running through another person for half of the human race. To believe in headship is to read the rest of the Bible through a strange filter that finally fell out of my looking glasses in the last five years. Secondly, my understanding started clicking when I realized that in the day Paul wrote the Corinthian epistles, authority or leadership was not a second meaning for the word 'head' in Greek. It is in English so our filters tend to automatically see that but it wasn't so in Paul's filters, so that couldn't have been what Paul was referencing. I embarked on a study lasting more than a year to reconstruct my reference points and dig deep into what Paul might have been thinking when he wrote that vs. how a 2019 person reads it. It was a fascinating journey and at the end I realized how much the understandings of other Scriptures need to be stretched, re-imagined and supplemented in order to make the headship concept work.

However, as I mentioned under the "submission" paragraph, I don't have a horse in the race of other people's headship doctrines unless their behavior (entitlement) under the doctrine is harming/abusing their wife.

Ultimately, I view the patient as being the marriage, not the doctrines. I have a high view of saving marriages if at all possible, but not at the expense of the victim if there is one. When an abuser will not change his/her ways, sometimes not saving the marriage is the definition of success.

Thanks again for your graciousness on these forums. I always enjoy reading your responses.

 

[bèlla]

I think the consideration that the Lord will one day require an accounting of how we have administered this issue according to the light we've been given has escaped many.

My understanding of grace has me taking a different approach. There are some things that are easy for me. Whether that’s due to talent, wiring, or gifting is not important.

I don’t have the liberty of applying my ease to someone else and ruling it law. I think our differences have a purpose and we should respect them instead of trying to clone ourselves through others.

She is a very willful person, and yet she respects the responsibility I have toward God in being the house-band. A very, very patient and gentle hand is required to make a success, in most, if not all cases. God is good and we have long seen practically eye-to-eye on the matter.

That’s a beautiful testimony. Many would seek to crush her spirit or turn her into something she’s not. I think that’s a loving approach that honors both.

 

[bèlla]

@Endeavourer

I’m working my way to it. Safari keeps crashing. I’m on the iPad IOS beta and its a mess!

 

[bèlla]

Thank you!

If I am one thing, it's that I am honest to a fault. You are correct, I have been told by many that I am sinning by not being a leader. That I am sinning by not doing it God's way.

I have even been told that I am not a man. So, yes, negative responses are the norm.

You’re welcome. We don’t serve a God who diminishes us because we fall short in places others excel. Emasculation is demonic. The Lord made you male and that is who you are.

You can ask the Lord to help you. But the outcome will probably differ from the next as it should. It will take into account all the facets of your person, gifts, and the one you’re with.

 

[mama2one]

delete as getting off topic

 

[Endeavourer]

I have seen other forms in other congregations as well. And I have seen enough that i absolutely hate it. So I have ended up very firmly in the egalitarian camp. My wife has suffered the scorn of both congregational leaders and congregants that she is not "submissive enough." I have done all I could to shield her from that criticism. (only partly successful)

Dave, this is a personal question and perhaps off topic, but I'm curious as to why you stay in a congregation (or even a denomination) that scorns your wife. Spiritual fellowship is a big deal (as you'll learn if you're ever deprived of it) and being scorned by both the leaders and the congregants in the assembly doesn't sound like a situation that ministers to your wife.

As to how submission and headship are understood in the modern western church, it is VERY damaging to women. Perhaps this is another area of understanding that was lost over the last 2000 years and cultures half a world away.

Amen. It is very damaging when wrapped with fruits of darkness and shoved down a wife's throat while demanding she not choke on it because.... God.

Unfortunately, few on the receiving end of that spectrum recognize this gross distortion of Scripture until they have suffered grave damage and their survival instincts rise up to question whether any of this is right....or if there even is a God.

 

[~Zao~]

Unfortunately, few on the receiving end of that spectrum recognize this gross distortion of Scripture until they have suffered grave damage and their survival instincts rise up to question whether any of this is right....or if there even is a God.

That gross distortion of scripture only reads as such to those who do not understand the role of Christ to the church. IOW, His leading in every individuals life. If some think they are being led by God thru their husbands I really do not understand how that is remotely possible.

*Running from the shadows*

 

[topher694]

That gross distortion of scripture only reads as such to those who do not understand the role of Christ to the church. IOW, His leading in every individuals life. If some think they are being led by God thru their husbands I really do not understand how that is remotely possible.

*Running from the shadows*

In the Bible people were lead by God through birds and donkeys, you must have a really low view of husbands.

 

[~Zao~]

In the Bible people were lead by God through birds and donkeys, you must have a really low view of husbands.

Various ways Hebrews 1 says. Now we are led by Christ.

 

[bèlla]

I'd be very interested to hear why this verse assumes a relationship authority order from a well spoken headship proponent such as yourself, and if it does so, how does this verse describe a woman's relationship to Christ in a way that fits with the rest of Scripture's counsel?

That was very kind of you to say. Thank you.

We have many personalities in the bible. But the one who speaks to me most is David. I’m not discounting Christ in that statement. I’m providing insight into my heart to provide the answer you seek.

He was called a man after God’s own heart. He loved Him deeply and I felt a similar depth as a child. That’s why I spent time with priests discussing faith instead of playing outdoors.

I found myself reading the bible by flashlight when I should be sleeping. My favorite books were the wisdom texts: Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, The Book of Sirach and The Wisdom of Solomon. I read them constantly and asked the Lord for wisdom as a child.

I think that’s why I spent years searching for Him through many religions. Something within me longs for Him and His presence had a profound impact. I don’t think I grasp its fullness yet. But I know my heart cedes to His. I don’t want to wrestle or to disobey. Obedience gives me peace.

When you consider that in light of 1 Corinthians 11:3, 1 Peter 3:1-2, Ephesians 5:22, and Proverbs 12:4, 18:22, and 31:10-12.

I don’t see a yoke. I delight in the manifestation of the principle He put forth in the Lord’s prayer:

Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

Not mine. Not his. But God’s working through the union and sanctifying each for His glory.

And because I love Him dearly. I can’t help but feel the same for my companion. The divinity in me testifies to his. Serving Him as unto the Lord is a source of joy and peace.

But when I answered your question something troubled me. It wasn’t the book in itself. I enjoyed it. What bothered me was why I did. His message resonates because its easy for me. I believed that anyway.

And the more I pondered it the more I felt that was telling. I have been in the company of many women. Christian and otherwise. I know that disposition isn’t common.

I began to wonder if both were laboring under expectations that were unfair and were truthfully a hardship. I questioned if we were meant to learn these things along the way. I feared they’d taken rare attributes and made them a standard. And that saddened me.

This thread is the result of those thoughts. I hope through the comments we’ll recognize our diversity and see the danger of trying to fit others into boxes God did not intend.

Only the Holy Spirit can reshape us. He uses others and situations to bring it about. I choose to work in harmony with my partner for its unfolding. But I’m uniquely fashioned to do so without complaint.

The absence of the same isn’t a cause of shame or disgust. There are many things which bring us to our current state. Only the Lord knows how to utilize them for our betterment and theirs. I trust Him implicitly. But my perspective isn’t the only one.

 

[MehGuy]

@MehGuy
sad description of marriage

we didn't become parents right away (met at work)
so both worked, volunteered, & travelled for a no. of years

being married w/o kids almost seemed like being single as we had little responsibility, got to know each other, & forged a strong bond

when we started the adoption process, we took the parenting classes, got fingerprinted, & waited together
by the time we became parents, we could afford for me to be a sahm
husband & child don't want me to go back into work force; they like home cooked meals every night

Good for you if it works. I grew up around a few conservative Christian couples who's relationships seemed to be more genuine and healthy. They were just the exception not the rule.

These days I see more and more young men drift towards more conservative viewpoints (probably in a response to hypocritical sjws). Honestly would not surprise me if many of these young men grew up in more liberal homes and had little contact with more conservative spaces. I am afraid they do not realize that pitfalls and complications seeking conservative style families can have in this day and age. A lot of it is just phony. Even looking back to the 1950s people like to cite Leave It To Beaver, yet when I watch the Honeymooners relationships were portrayed as more complex than simply "woman submissive" and "man dominate".

Funny really, growing up I viewed the challenge of getting women into the workplace and taking on more traditionally manly roles more of a men's issue than a woman's one.. lol.

 

[bèlla]

we're a traditional family with him working & me a sahm

My daughter desires the same and I’m helping her prepare. She wants to homeschool too.

Your post resonated a lot. We’ve been through a season of learning and growth for marriage and family. I don’t think I’ll have more children but He led me to open my heart to the possibility.

he's a quiet, patient leader of our family

That is a blessing indeed.