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Featured Student of Prophecy

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Richard Ruhling, Dec 17, 2018.

  1. Dr. D Bunker

    Dr. D Bunker Member

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    bye
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019
  2. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Do you realize that there is not a single place in the bible that gives a start to finish explanation of the end times inclusive of all that will take place.

    What you are asking for is something tailored as you understand the end times. Muslims use the same sort of rationale to argue no where does Jesus say I am God, worship me.
    The reason you are wrong in regards to the meaning of 2Thessalonians2:4 as (not) being the Jewish temple is because in Ezekiel 28:1-10, the person is killed for the act. The person may claim to be some god like Zeus. I wouldn't rule out that possibility - and likely hood, similarly speaking.

    The code name for the person is the prince of Tyrus. Similarly, in Ezekiel 28:12-19 King of Tyrus is a code name for Satan.

    1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

    2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God: [go back to Daniel 8:25, magnify himself in his heart. You need to start connecting the dots.]

    3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:

    4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:

    5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:

    6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;

    7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.

    8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas. [Go to Isaiah 14:18-20, you will find out why he is a Jew and at one point the King of Israel, illegitimate]

    9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.

    10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.

    The person will think he has achieved God-hood. Satan's enters him to carry out the act. Which similarly for a short time, the same happened to Judas, to carry out an act of betrayal. So both are called the son of perdition.

    Follow down through my chart for when he will be killed and why. And him becoming the beast after Isaiah 14:18-20, brought back to life.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2019
  3. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    You question is not legit. It is flawed.

    The reason you don't see it is because you have been conditioned. How many times have you heard of a bible commentator say the Antichrist goes by many names in the bible, the beast, the prince who shall come, the man of sin, the willful king, the little horn...

    Instead, they should be saying the person goes by many "roles" in the bible, the Antichrist, the beast, the prince who shall come, the man of sin, the willful king, the little horn....

    The flaw in what they are saying would be like saying the President of the United States, goes by many names, the senator of Illinois, director of Developing Communities Project, president of Harvard Law Review...etc.

    Do you not see that is a flawed statement to define the President of the United States in that manner? Instead what I have described is the roles of one specific person - Barak Obama, in all those roles at different times. Only one of the roles as being the President of the United States.

    Being the Antichrist is one role - for the person.

    We don't know the person's name yet, so it is better to refer to the person as "the person", and then in the role he is in. Such as the person in the role of being the Antichrist. Or the person in the role of being the beast.

    When the person is in the role of being the little horn, and the beast, he is the King of the Roman Empire (of the end times).

    When the person is in the role of being the Antichrist, he is the (illegitimate King of Israel).
     
  4. Dr. D Bunker

    Dr. D Bunker Member

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    bye dickie
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019
  5. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    I have been saying to you, you have to first start by understanding what "Christ" means as far as being the promised King of Israel, descended from King David. And from that what the Antichrist person will be. Then start connecting the dots to get the picture. I have been showing you some of the dots.

    He will certainly become Israel's oppressor, I totally agree. But it will be after he betrays them, destroying his land and his people, somewhere around 3 years into the 7 years.

    Regarding the anointed one of Israel, are you aware that all the Kings of Israel (in its united form, one country) they were all anointed by a prophet?

    Saul and David by Samuel. Solomon by Nathan.

    The Jews at their Passover meal, by tradition, set a place for Elijah (the prophet), because they believe he must come before the messianic age begins. And they also believe the mashaich must be anointed by a known prophet. Standing to reason, this would be Elijah.

    The false prophet in Revelation, would be the reasonable expectation to anoint the person when he becomes the Antichrist. But both going bad about three years later, when the person later claims to be God.
    _________________________________________________________________

    Okay, I went through the Mahdi theory about twenty years ago, making many posts at Muslim sites in my pursuit of the theory. Bottom line it doesn't work out, for a multitude of reasons.

    One being that the Mahdi doesn't even fight against (the muslim view) the Antichrist, until Isa's (muslim name for Jesus) returns. Which the Mahdi is in a heated battle with the Mahdi, could go either way, when Isa returns and destroys the dajjal.

    The problem is in Muslim false eschatology, if the Mahdi = the Antichrist
    Isa = Jesus
    dajjal = who? There is no counterpart in the bible prophecies. So the whole thing fails as nothing more than a sitting round the campfire, trying to one upsmanship of Christianity and Judaism

    The dajjal in Muslim eschatology is suppose to travel across the middle east on a giant white mule, at incredible speeds (do you not see the around the campfire story telling coming into play?) having one eye and shriveled arm, and kafir written on his forehead.

    And if a person merely looks at him - they will become of his followers.
    _________________________________________________________________

    Islam ends, in a total collapse , when Gog/Magog takes place. Which the seven years following, is the beginning to the 7 year 70th week.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2019
  6. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    To clarify...

    The Mahdi - the beast (inappropriately called the Antichrist by nearly everyone, although the beast and the Antichrist is the same person in different roles.)

    Isa - Jesus

    dajjal - the muslim antichrist - who the Madi fights in their eschatolgy. No counterpart to be the muslim dajjal.
    _______________________________________________________________________

    Alternatively, if you make the Mahdi the False prophet. Then who plays the role of beast, who is mortally wounded but healed ? And rules the world for 42 months?

    Are you calling the beast the Antichrist? If so, it doesn't fit, because the False Prophet (the Mahdi) would not be fighting the the beast (the Antichrist - dajjal, in that scenario). As they are running mates.

    There is no way to put it together because their is no-one in the bible's real prophecies to play the role of the dajjal.

    In my scenario, it would be closer to the muslim eschatology, because they think the dajjal is a Jew, and (I think) perceived to be the Jewish messiah. It still doesn't work for the Mahdi theory, because the entire muslim eschatology is in conflict with the bible.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2019
  7. Dr. D Bunker

    Dr. D Bunker Member

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    bye dickie
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019
  8. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Identify the "biblical anti-Christ" in some passage, fighting the Mahdi person. So I can understand what your thoughts on the Mahdi person better.


    Allow me to say something. I am 70 years old and have been pursuing the end times prophecies intensely for for the past 47 years. So there is going to be some disconnection between us, where I don't know what is in your head, and vice versa.

    It is impossible for me to pour all that I have been exposed to over that course of 47 years, or even to know where you are at in you own pursuit of bible prophecy, into customized a perfect response tailored just for you.

    So we have some person to person communication issues to be aware of.
     
  9. Dr. D Bunker

    Dr. D Bunker Member

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    Allow me to say something. I am 70 years old and have be pursuing the end times prophecies intensely for for the past 47 years. So there is going to be some disconnection between us, where I don't know what is in your head, and vice versa.

     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019
  10. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The false prophet and the beast in Revelation 13 work together. When the person is killed comes back to life as the beast, the false prophet has the world make a image of the beast person to be worshiped, and to worship the beast person himself (Revelation 13:12).

    So the false prophet and the beast would not be opposed to each other.


    11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. [this is the false prophet, i.e. the second beast in Revelation 13]

    12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

    13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, [in similitude to what Elijah did, back in the old testament ]

    14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

    15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2019
  11. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    My speculation is the image will be made out of gold, with the nations donating. Speculation based on the golden calf incident where the children of Israel melted down their gold. It is speculation only.

    Regarding the term "them that dwell on the earth". Similar language is in

    Revelation 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

    Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
    _____________________________________________________________________

    Muslims don't worship Islam. It is their religion but they don't worship it. No more than Christians do not worship Christianity.

    Here is how I can show you that Islam is not the beast, nor the Mahdi figure the false prophet.

    There are few passages in the bible regarding bible prophecy which we can stand on with 100% concrete certainty in relation to other end times events.

    Gog/Magog is one of them.

    And Gog/Magog is right before of the 7 year 70th week. After Gog/Magog, Islam will no longer be a religion, going the way of Nazism and Communism.

    Here's how to know. In Ezekiel 39:21-29, it is Jesus Himself speaking, having returned to this earth, and executing judgment on the heathen at Armageddon day, in Ezekiel 39:17-20. I would encourage you to read down through Ezekiel 39:21-29, as if you were hearing Jesus Himself speaking.

    7 years earlier, Gog's army is destroyed and feasted on in Ezekiel 39:4.

    So Islam is destroyed before the 7 years begin. Revelation 13, on the other hand, is conditions when there are only 42 months left.
    ___________________________________________________________________
    Islam, I will agree, is a major factor in the end times, but not in the framework of within the 7 years, but right before it.
    _____________________________________________________________________
    In Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him [the beast], whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
    ___________________________________________________________________

    Am I wrong in understanding that you view the first beast as empire - in particular Islam, but not also a individual person?

    If I misunderstood you, who is the individual person that will be worshiped and have the image made of him?
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2019
  12. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The beast person cannot be Saddam. I think for sake of discussion, in your scenario, you are going to have to say some unknown muslim leader who will be in power as leader of the kingdom of Islam when the 7 years begin.

    The reason is that the beast person is not Saddam is that Saddam died over 7 years ago.

    In the study of the heads and horns on the beast, the timestamps are....

    Revelation 17 - 1st century at the time of John (sixth king ruling)
    heads - no crowns
    horns - no crowns
    no wounded head

    Revelation 12 - at the beginning the 7 years (Rev 12:6 + Rev 12:14 is the 7 yrs)
    heads - crowns *
    horns - no crowns
    no wounded head

    Revelation 13 - at the beginning of the last 42 months of the 7 years
    heads - no crowns **
    horns - crowns
    one head wounded but healed. ***


    * heads have crowns because King 7 of the 7 kings of Revelation 17:10 has come to power. Completing the prophecy of the 7 kings. For the sake of your Islam theory, this would be the person who is the leader of Islam at the time, when the 7 years begin. Whoever that person is.

    ** heads no crowns because King 7 will have been wounded and healed before the 42 months begin. The prophecy of the 7 kings finished.

    *** one head wounded but healed will be King 7 (forthcoming) who right before the 42 months is killed, but comes back to life - and at this time becomes the beast person.

    Therefore the beast person is not Saddam (come back to life) because the person has to be killed after the 7 years begin, but before the final 42 months of the 7 years begin.

    ___________________________________________________________________

    In your Islam scenario so far, if I might pencil in...

    beast kingdom - global islam,

    beast person - leader of global islam at the time the 7 years begin. But killed right before the 42 months, and comes back alive to become the beast person. Worshiped by all muslims.*

    false prophet - Mahdi, spiritual leader of Islam. 12th Iman to Shia muslims.

    dajjal - ???? what are the verses in the bible, of someone fitting this key person? We need something of him doing something in the bible that would also fit muslim eschatology.

    * The scenario fails on this point, because to have the muslim faithful to worship some man who claims to be God has them violating one of the foundational fundamental beliefs of Islam.

    Nonetheless, I would like to pursue discussion by you of who in the bible, specific verses of the dajjal person of who will play the role of the dajjal, the muslim antichrist figure.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2019
  13. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    From wikepedia: Al-Masih ad-Dajjal - Wikipedia


    Al-Masih ad-Dajjal
    (Arabic: المسيح الدجّال‎ Al-Masīḥ ad-Dajjāl, "the false messiah, liar, the deceiver") is an evil figure in Islamic eschatology. He is to appear, pretending to be al-Masih (i.e. the Messiah), before Yawm al-Qiyamah (the Day of Resurrection). He is an anti-messianic figure, comparable to the Antichrist in Christian eschatology and to Armilus in medieval Jewish
    ________________________________________________________________________

    So in muslim eschatology, the dajjal is the false messiah. So the task is to find something in the bible that defines what is the false messiah. And verses of him doing things the muslims say he will do.

    ________________________________________________________________________
    Muslim commentator....




    dajjal,will be followed by 70,000 jews from Iran (Isfahan) - really ? Is this in the bible?
    Does it even make sense? Iran taken over and lead by 70,000 jews?

    Mahdi, the speaker says, will not emerge until the dajjal is near completion of his mission.
    ______________________________________________________________

    When a person delves into muslim eschatology, about the Mahdi figure, their Isa, and their dajjal, it becomes readily apparent that there is no connection in the bible, in the real prophecies.

    "His right eye will be punctured, and his left eye would be raised to his forehead and will be sparkling like a star."

    really?
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2019
  14. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Well, that is where the concept of Mahdi comes from. You are citing muslim concepts and using those concepts to explain how Islam, and it leaders, fit the prophecies in the bible.

    You have a ways to go because the dajjal is still a ?????
     
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