Student of Prophecy

[Douggg]

That is what I stated, he's just like you in that he believes that the Seals have been opened, he believes 4 have been opened, and 4 events have passed, you believe all of them have been opened but none of the event have come to pass. Which makes zero sense in either case. But you both believe SEALS have been opened when they haven't been opened.

RT, both you and lamad believe the opening of the seals enact the events. You both believe the same thing regarding the opening of the seals enact events.

lamad believes that the first five seals have been opened and have already enacted events. You do not.

Differently, than both of you, I believe the opening of the seals do NOT enact events. Instead, I believe the opening of the seals revealed what the events will be.

 

[Douggg]

No he wouldn't have, Jesus gave him the text, Jesus is not going to Reveal the name of the Anti-Christ until he breaks the Seal. You have a right to be wrong.

But you say the rider on the white horse is the Antichrist, and you say the seals will be opened in the end times when the Church is in heaven. If that were the case, the seals opened then, then the name of the Antichrist would be stated and that the rider is the Antichrist in Revelation 6:1-2.

The seals have already been opened. And the understanding of what they revealed differs among different Christians. When the church is in heaven, it will be looked back up who understood the verses and who did not.

 

[Revealing Times]

RT, both you and lamad believe the opening of the seals enact the events. You both believe the same thing regarding the opening of the seals enact events.

lamad believes that the first four seals have been opened and have already enacted events. You do not.

Differently, than both of you, I believe the opening of the seals do NOT enact events. Instead, I believe the opening of the seals revealed what the events will be.

I understand all this, I also know that no Seals have been opened. The Church is clearly seen in Heaven with Christ BEFORE the Seals are opened.

But you say the rider on the white horse is the Antichrist, and you say the seals will be opened in the end times when the Church is in heaven. If that were the case, the seals opened then, then the name of the Antichrist would be stated and that the rider is the Antichrist in Revelation 6:1-2.

The seals have already been opened. And the understanding of what they revealed differs among different Christians. When the church is in heaven, it will be looked back up who understood the verses and who did not.

That is right, knowing who it is doesn't mean we know HIS NAME thus he is NOT REVEALED !!

His Revealing just means hes brought to light for WHO HE IS.

The Seals are not opened. You just don't quite understand the BoR it seems.

 

[Douggg]

The Seals are not opened. You just don't quite understand the BoR it seems.

I am saying is that when you or anybody else presents a end times discussion or interpretations saying that the seals have not been opened, thinking the opening of the seals enacts the events - introduces error, by using incorrect terminology. It's like calling the person the Antichrist - when he is no longer in the role of the Antichrist, but the beast.

That the seals have all been opened on the book, 2000 years, when John was taken to heaven and was revealed what was in the book is basic.

When people do not use the right terminology, they can come up with all kinds of scenarios.

 

[Revealing Times]

I am saying is that when you or anybody else presents a end times discussion or interpretations saying that the seals have not been opened, thinking the opening of the seals enacts the events - introduces error, by using incorrect terminology. It's like calling the person the Antichrist - when he is no longer in the role of the Antichrist, but the beast.

That the seals have all been opened on the book, 2000 years, when John was taken to heaven and was revealed what was in the book is basic.

When people do not use the right terminology, they can come up with all kinds of scenarios.

Wrong, even when the guy becomes THE BEAST he will still be Anti-Christ because it means AGAINST Christ. You are the one that tries to interject him as the King of Israel when the bible never says that. No seals have been opened, PERIOD.

 

[Douggg]

Wrong, even when the guy becomes THE BEAST he will still be Anti-Christ because it means AGAINST Christ. You are the one that tries to interject him as the King of Israel when the bible never says that. No seals have been opened, PERIOD.

The way people (errantly) use the term the Antichrist they are talking about the one particular arch villain of the end times in too broad of a sense.

You are the one who doesn't understand that the confirming of the covenant for 7 years is in Deuteronomy 31:9-13, a perpetual requirement by Moses of the leaders of Israel.

Watch this video at minute 0:45-47. The Jews view the messiah as being the King of Israel. The Anti-christ will be the person forthcoming who be anointed the King of Israel, instead of the rightful King of Israel - Jesus.

__________________________________________________________

 

[Douggg]

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[Douggg]

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[iamlamad]

Welcome to Christian Forums. But please do not enter this area without safety glasses and a hard hat. And a bulletproof vest would also be advisable. For you can rest assured that for any opinion you might proffer, there will be several people who will tell you are crazy, one or two will call you a heretic, and several more will "correct" your thinking. And maybe one or two will actually say something helpful.

Perhaps add a course in advanced rhinocerology! You will need rhinocerous skin here!

 

[iamlamad]

I am saying is that when you or anybody else presents a end times discussion or interpretations saying that the seals have not been opened, thinking the opening of the seals enacts the events - introduces error, by using incorrect terminology. It's like calling the person the Antichrist - when he is no longer in the role of the Antichrist, but the beast.

That the seals have all been opened on the book, 2000 years, when John was taken to heaven and was revealed what was in the book is basic.

When people do not use the right terminology, they can come up with all kinds of scenarios.

Ya, that is kind of true: we DO believe that when a seal is opened then, and RIGHT THEN the events of that seal will take place. We think it is YOU who don't understand the truth here.
Can you see any TIME after Jesus opens a seal and one of the four Beasts says COME AND SEE? I don't. I don't see any time after the Beast speaks either, for that matter. It seems the seal is broken and RIGHT THEN that associated event takes place.

 

[iamlamad]

I understand all this, I also know that no Seals have been opened. The Church is clearly seen in Heaven with Christ BEFORE the Seals are opened.


That is right, knowing who it is doesn't mean we know HIS NAME thus he is NOT REVEALED !!

His Revealing just means hes brought to light for WHO HE IS.

The Seals are not opened. You just don't quite understand the BoR it seems.

Douggg and I know you MISS it in the seals. You also miss it in the CONTEXT of the seals, which is chapters 4 & 5 - which CLEARLY show us the timing of the first seals is around 32 AD. And you imagine the first seal is about the antichrist - in 32 AD?

Mark it down. Write it on tablets so you can run with it: the first five seals were opened as soon as Jesus ascended!
Seal 1: to represent the church taking the gospel to the world.
Seals 2, 3, & 4 These three riders ride together to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel.
Seal 5: the martyrs of the CHURCH AGE.

The church is seen in heaven before God's wrath begins - at the 6th seal.

Mark it down! There is no wrath of God in seals 1-5! His wrath begins at seal 6. Notice that John saw the just raptured church in heaven shortly after the 6th seal.
What ever is BoR?

 

[iamlamad]

That is what I stated, he's just like you in that he believes that the Seals have been opened, he believes 4 have been opened, and 4 events have passed, you believe all of them have been opened but none of the event have come to pass. Which makes zero sense in either case. But you both believe SEALS have been opened when they haven't been opened.

It is FACT, it is a plain reading of the bible. Rev. 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Plain as day.......................

FACTS...............I understand the book of Revelation.

Israel never accepts the Anti-Christ as their King, nowhere in the bible says this or infers it.

SURE..........Rev. 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Can we close our eyes and pretend the REDEEMED are not in this passage ? BEFORE the Seals are Opened !! Look, no one understand the timing as well as I do. It's my calling. It is what it is.

Wrong, they are opened starting at the 3.5 year Mark of the 70th Week and we do have disagreements because people don't understand the book of Revelation. It is REAL TIME in the future. The book of Revelation is in perfect order, if you know how to read it.

No Seals have been opened, the First Seal is the Anti-Christ being sent forth !!

Correction: I believe the first 5 seals have been opened: the 5th seal is the martyrs of the church age. There is still martyrs being added. But when the last martyr killed as they were - as church age martyrs - comes in, SUDDENLY the rapture will take place and the wrath of God in the Day of the Lord will begin.

Correction: this makes a LOT of sense, because it is God's plan being played out. And it is what is written, when correctly understood. Do you not understand Paul that a moment after the rapture it will be the start of THE DAY and God's wrath? That means the church has been waiting between the 5th and 6th seal all this time, NOT at 4:1 as you imagine. Go back and read it again: it is JOHN called up - circa 95 AD.

Read through the first 5 seals again looking for a long waiting period: you will find it ONLY at the 5th seal. They are told they must WAIT.

You highlighted the wrong part: the emphasis is on "Thou art worthy to take the book" You overlook the context of THE BOOK! God our Father was holding the book UNTIL someone was found worthy to look at the book, take the book, and begin opening the seals. The emphasis is SOMEONE was finally found worthy! Thank God forever!

"Thou art worthy to take the book" In the mind of God, we were redeemed before the world was created, but when Jesus blood was shed, and then He arose, the legal process was complete - our redemption was complete. But you and I were not born then! What made Him worthy? Simply be raised from the dead to BECOME our Redeemer. This has nothing to do with the timing of the rapture. FACTS! You don't understand the timing of these first five seals! Neither do you understand what God intended they mean. However, I believe you THINK you do. Until you really understand, timing here is NOT your calling!

"The book of Revelation is in perfect order, if you know how to read it."
I agree with this statement,, for it is TRUTH - but don't agree much with the rest of what you say!

UNtil you get the timing of the first seals, you will be wrong on most everything. And you will not get the timing right until you understand that chapters 4 & 5 give us that timing.

 

[iamlamad]

Wrong, the Church is THE BRIDE in Rev. chapters 4 and 5. That is why John is shown being Raptured in prose, because that is what the future will look like.


Yes, the rider on the white horse is the Anti-Christ, the White Horse stands for a CONQUEROR, the Crown is not the same Crown Jesus gets in Rev. 19, it's a CHEAP CROWN won via games, whereas Jesus' Crown is a Crown given to Kings and he has MANY CROWNS. The two words are different, the one used for the Anti-Christ is like unto a WREATH.

The word used for BOW actually means means PLAIN or Simple Clothing, this denotes he is not the Royal Jesus Christ, King of Kings, but a lowly man.

Rev. 6:2 And 2532 I saw, 1492 z5627 and 2532 behold, 2400 z5628 a white 3022 horse, 2462 and 2532 hee that sate 2521 z5740 on 1909 him 846 had 2192 z5723 a bowe, 5115 and 2532 a crowne 4735 was giuen 1325 z5681 vnto him, 846 and 2532 hee went foorth 1831 z5627 conquering, 3528 z5723 and 2532 to 2443 conquere. 3528 z5661

Bow 5115 = From the base of G5088; a bow (apparently as the simplest fabric):—bow.

So the CROWN is made of a Wreath and the Clothes are SIMPLE FABRIC which shows he is an imposter. Whereas Jesus is shown as Majestic, the King of kings and Lord of lords. NOTICE :

Rev. 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

It is the Anti-Christ, this is basich stuff here man.


It is shown, it just doesn't fit your narrative brother.

Rev. 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Rev. 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Angels don't need REDEEMING, the reason you can't get this is because you are set in your ways. This is the CHURCH in Heaven like I have been telling you for a long time. They are dressed in White Raiment in chapter 4, and in ch. 5 they are the Redeemed, but let's play pretend this is not the church because it doesn't fit "our eschatology". Wink, wink. Come on brother.


No he wouldn't have, Jesus gave him the text, Jesus is not going to Reveal the name of the Anti-Christ until he breaks the Seal. You have a right to be wrong.



I back everything up with Scriptures. You timing of Revelation is just off.

You are funny! You imagine you have the truth on timing, when you are 2000 years off!

Did you just not notice that the church or the Bride is NOT SEEN in heaven in chapter 4, no, not in chapter 5, no, not even in chapter 6! Not until chapter 7, shortly after the 6th seal, is the Bride of Christ seen in heaven - as that great crowd too large to number. The number of the raptured will be an astounding number, around 50 generations of believers!

Go back and read it AGAIN! It is JOHN called up to heaven for the purpose of us having this great book of Revelation to read! Rev. 4:1 has NOTHING to do with anything but JOHN being called up.

John (backed by the Holy Spirit) used the color white 16 times in Revelation to represent righteousness. And you imagine just this one time God would cause John to use white to represent something evil! Amazing!
Do you not understand that advancing the GOSPEL would require overcoming and conquering? The demonic principalities were not just going to stand aside and allow the gospel into new areas without a fight! Do you remember the struggles Paul went through? Every new city was a new struggle. But Satan just could not stop Paul! Neither could he keep the gospel confined to that 1/4 of the earth he was allowed to work in.

Sorry, but Strongs MISSED IT BIG TIME with a simply ribbon kind of bow! The Greek word is TOXON, and this is the word used every time in the Greek Septuagint for a bow that shoots arrows. This Greek word is where we get our English word TOXIC. Toxon for bow came from the poison used on the arrows.

The crown, 4735, is used in this verse: "there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness." It also is a crown standing for VICTORY. Sorry, but the beast will NEVER have such a crown.

Bottom line? "Basic stuff" to you is ERROR to those who know the truth. God would NEVER use the color white 16 times for righteousness and then use it once for evil. No, never. The first seal "white" STILL represents righteousness, because the first seal is the GOSPEL going forth.

Try this translation for 5:9

And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation. (NIV)

English Standard Version
And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation,

Berean Study Bible
And they sang a new song: “Worthy are You to take the scroll and open its seals, because You were slain, and by Your blood You purchased for God those from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

New American Standard Bible
And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
And they sang a new song: You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because You were slaughtered, and You redeemed people for God by Your blood from every tribe and language and people and nation.

Weymouth New Testament
And now they sing a new song. "It is fitting," they say, "that Thou shouldst be the One to take the book And break its seals; Because Thou hast been offered in sacrifice, And hast purchased for God with Thine own blood Some out of every tribe and language and people and nation,

And [now] they sing a new song, saying, You are worthy to take the scroll and to break the seals that are on it, for You were slain (sacrificed), and with Your blood You purchased men unto God from every tribe and language and people and nation. (AMP)

There is definitely a difference in the Greek texts for this verse. I think these translations make it clear the four beasts are not saying "US" for the redeemed.

Jesus is not going to Reveal the name of the Anti-Christ until he breaks the Seal.
Why don't we just go be what is WRITTEN! He is not going to be revealed until he enters the temple and declares he is God.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Richard Ruhling said: ↑
Hi, I'm new. I'm concerned about the times, but not sure where to post this.
2015 was marked by seven “when-then” signs that signal the “kingdom of God”--the other phrase in Christ’s announcement…

“The sun shall be darkened and the moon turned to blood before the day of the Lord.”
The rare solar eclipse on the equinox and a blood moon two weeks later on Passover fulfilled Joel 2:31 above where the word for ‘before’ is paniym. It means face or facing.

Those events are facing the end-time ‘day of the Lord,’ along with the other signs.

What did Christ mean, the kingdom of God is at hand in Mark 1:15?

When Christ proclaimed this 2000 years ago He had an internal kingdom in mind, saying ‘Blessed are the meek, the merciful--the kingdom is within us if we have God’s Spirit from a surrender of our lives to Him, Lk 17:21

The disciples understood that, but that’s not what they were looking for when they asked if Christ would restore the kingdom, Acts 1.

Christ replied, “It is not for you to know the times and seasons…” That phrase is found only once before, in Daniel 2:21 where God sets up kings.

That chapter also proves the Bible correct for 2500. Since the four kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Grecia and Rome, no kingdom has ruled the world. The Roman Empire, was represented by the legs of iron.

Christ’s “times and seasons” when the kingdom will be restored is ALSO found in 1Thessalonians 5:1-3…

Paul said “you know the times and seasons, for the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night, for when they shall say ‘Peace and safety,’ sudden destruction comes on them.”

The Iran Nuclear Treaty in 2015 was ‘Peace and safety,’ and it was updated by the UN theme for 2017 that included those words.

Other signs in 2015 need explaining…
“When you see the abomination…standing where it ought not…flee” Mark 13:14

Three signs in 2015 could qualify as an abomination. The Bible calls same sex union an abomination in Leviticus 18:22 and it was ‘standing where it ought not’ in the US Supreme Court. Obama’s White House gave approval with the rainbow lights above.

Early Christians understood Christ’s words to mean the Roman army that came to Jerusalem in 66 AD, so they fled and were spared the siege by Titus in 70 AD

In 2015, a JADE HELM drill meant Homeland Eradication of Local Militants that some say was a test for when martial law is set up.
The pope also represents the "mother of abominations" in Rev 17:5 and he was "standing where he ought not" (Mark 13:14) in the US Congress in 2015.
More could be said, but the point is, the Bible has many references to 3 1/2 years like Elijah's ministry, Christ's time and in Daniel 12 or Rev 11:3, 13:5. The Roman General Cestius coming to Jerusalem in the fall of 66 AD was the sign that early believers took to flee as Christ said before Titus came 3 1/2 years later. We had the signs 3 years ago, but most Christians are numb from signs and are stuck in cities when they should consider an exit plan to be in harmony with Christ's words. When martial law comes, "one shall be taken and the other left" may have a new meaning for dreamy people who think it's about a rapture. They should read the last verse of Luke 17 to see the real meaning.

Biblewriter said: ↑
Welcome to Christian Forums. But please do not enter this area without safety glasses and a hard hat. And a bulletproof vest would also be advisable. For you can rest assured that for any opinion you might proffer, there will be several people who will tell you are crazy, one or two will call you a heretic, and several more will "correct" your thinking. And maybe one or two will actually say something helpful.

Perhaps add a course in advanced rhinocerology! You will need rhinocerous skin here!

I like rhinos..........

Book of Job

Job 39
9 Shall the rhinoceros be willing to serve thee, or will he stay at thy crib?
10 Canst thou bind the rhinoceros with thy thong to plough, or will he break the clods of the valleys after thee?
11 Wilt thou have confidence in his great strength, and leave thy labours to him?
12 Wilt thou trust him that he will render thee the seed, and gather it into thy barnfloor?

.............

.

 

[Revealing Times]

Perhaps add a course in advanced rhinocerology! You will need rhinocerous skin here!

It seems you left your skin in Africa.............

Douggg and I know you MISS it in the seals. You also miss it in the CONTEXT of the seals, which is chapters 4 & 5 - which CLEARLY show us the timing of the first seals is around 32 AD. And you imagine the first seal is about the antichrist - in 32 AD?

I find it amusing that your Eschatology is built around not seeing Jesus in Heaven, but you avoid the fact that Jesus is also not seen on earth or under the earth, and you build your whole eschatology around this fallacy. You avoid this factoid, and facts are all that matter as per eschatology. You have tunnel vision on this brother, but of course your understanding is more important than the facts that I always point towards. The Church/Bride is seen in Heaven in Revelation 4:1, 4:4, and 5:9 BEFORE the Seals are opened and AFTER the Rapture of the Church. These are facts you don't want to face, but God's truths are more important than our eschatology brother.

You have the Seals being opened in 32 AD when John didn't even write the book of Revelation until 96 AD. We are told by John THIS BELOW:

Rev. 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen(Jesus Glorified Rev. 1), and the things which are(7 Churches Rev. 2-3), and the things which shall be hereafter (Rev. 4-22, the Raptured Church in Heaven which has married the Bride is Clearly seen, and the Dead in Christ are not raised until those who are alive and remain on earth are called up, BOTH at the Same time, where they meet Jesus in the Air and go to Heaven with him, it's called the Pre Tribulation Rapture, which you understand, but the you refuse to SEE IT ).;

Rev. 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven(Rapture): and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.


Rev. 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Rev. 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation (This is of course the Raptured Church who are now the Bride, as they are seen in White Raiment in Rev. 4:4, these are the things which are HEREAFTER, meaning after the Church Age of see the last three words of Rev. 4:1.);

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Now you now what Withholdeth, the CHURCH WITHHOLDETH the Beast from coming forth, that is why there is no Beast for nigh 2000 years !! Thus when we DEPART, the Anti-Christ comes forth or is revealed, as the White Horse Conqueror, when Jesus opens the First Seal !!

Jesus Glorified in Rev. ch. 1 are the things which you have seen.....The Church Age in Rev. 2 and 3 are the things which ARE........................And the Church In Heaven are shown the things which will be HEREAFTER [THE CHURCH AGE]. That is why we see John Raptured in Rev. 4:1 because he WILL BE RAPTURED at that very moment in time, the DEAD in Christ Rise first, then we which are ALIVE and remain are Raptured and both WE MEET in the air with Jesus, who then takes us to Heaven to Marry the Lamb, and we are seen in Rev. 4:4, and 5:7 BEFORE the Seals are opened !! Ignoring this fact is not going to change God's plans brother.

 

[Revealing Times]

Mark it down. Write it on tablets so you can run with it: the first five seals were opened as soon as Jesus ascended!
Seal 1: to represent the church taking the gospel to the world.
Seals 2, 3, & 4 These three riders ride together to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel.
Seal 5: the martyrs of the CHURCH AGE.

The First Four Seals are all the Anti-christ. That is clear, plus the Church is seen in Heaven BEFORE the Seals are opened. The Martyrs in Seal number 5 are those killed during the Tribulation period, they are not see in Rev. 7:9-17, those ARE the Church Age Tribulation Saints seen that came from the Great Tribulation as in 2000 year Church Age !! As in 2000>7. Maybe that confuses you, but those seen under the Altar are not Church Age Saints.

The 2nd Seal is the Anti-Christ taking away PEACE from the earth, the PEACE that is spoken of in Dan. 8:24-25, where he destroys many by peace. The same peace Agreements he reneges on in Dan. 9:27, notice he doesn't bring wars, but takes Peace from the earth.

The church is seen in heaven before God's wrath begins - at the 6th seal.

Mark it down! There is no wrath of God in seals 1-5! His wrath begins at seal 6. Notice that John saw the just raptured church in heaven shortly after the 6th seal.
What ever is BoR?

Wrong, the Church is seen in Heaven before any of the Seas are opened, and you know this to be a fact, we see it in Rev. chapters 4 and 5. John saw the Martyred Saints of the 70th Week under the Altar, nit the Raptured Church, why would the Raptured Church be called THE MARTYRS ? 99.5 percent of us WERE NOT Martyrs, we were in the Church Age Tribulation no doubt, but we were not Martys, to describe us as such would be an error. But those living during the Beasts time will serve him or DIE, so they will all be MARTYRS, thus the Description as such !!

These are THE MARTYRS of Seal 5 Below:
Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev. 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:


The BoR = the Book of Revelation. There is of Course Wrath in Seals 1-5, God gives mankind their hearts desire, a tyrant King with ungodly desires !! God delivers the church from his Wrath, thus the Raptures intended purpose. Those saying God's Wrath comes at the 6th Seal because that is when Mankind on earth finally understand they are in God's Wrath are mistaken. God doesn't start things in the middle, He has perfect Symmetry. It i called the Lamb's Wrath because all of the Wrath proceeds from the 7 Seal, ALL OF THE WRATH !! The 7th Seal is the 7 Trumpets and the 7th Trumpet is the 3rd Woe which is all 7 Vials !! That is why it is called the Lamb's Wrath, the 7 Seals are opened by the Lamb !!

So I indeed find it amusing that people refuse to acknowledge what the scriptures actually say, when it's starring the in the face. It's called the pride of life, we can't ever be wrong as humans, I learned this was what was blocking me from learning 5 or so years ago. We clearly see the Church as the Bride IN HEAVEN......BEFORE the Seals are opened !!

 

[Revealing Times]

Correction: I believe the first 5 seals have been opened: the 5th seal is the martyrs of the church age. There is still martyrs being added. But when the last martyr killed as they were - as church age martyrs - comes in, SUDDENLY the rapture will take place and the wrath of God in the Day of the Lord will begin.

Again, why would Church Age Saints be called Martyrs instead of Saints ? They wouldn't be called Martyrs, in Rev. 5:9 and Rev. 7:9 the Church Age Saints are called the "Great Multitude".

The Wrath of God starts with the First Seal at the 3.5 year mark of the 70th Week.

Correction: this makes a LOT of sense, because it is God's plan being played out. And it is what is written, when correctly understood. Do you not understand Paul that a moment after the rapture it will be the start of THE DAY and God's wrath? That means the church has been waiting between the 5th and 6th seal all this time, NOT at 4:1 as you imagine. Go back and read it again: it is JOHN called up - circa 95 AD.

Read through the first 5 seals again looking for a long waiting period: you will find it ONLY at the 5th seal. They are told they must WAIT.

You are just wrong brother. The Wrath of God comes at the 1260 day mark of the 70th week, Get off of your preconceived notions and relook at it. Everything HEREAFTER means the Church Age which is seen in Rev. chapters 2 and 3. All your Eschatology is based around no man being seen in Heaven !! But no man was son on earth or under the earth either, because it was the Lamb of God who was worthy to open the Seals !! But it happens AFTER THE CHURCH AGE....HEREAFTER !!

You highlighted the wrong part: the emphasis is on "Thou art worthy to take the book" You overlook the context of THE BOOK! God our Father was holding the book UNTIL someone was found worthy to look at the book, take the book, and begin opening the seals. The emphasis is SOMEONE was finally found worthy! Thank God forever!

"Thou art worthy to take the book" In the mind of God, we were redeemed before the world was created, but when Jesus blood was shed, and then He arose, the legal process was complete - our redemption was complete. But you and I were not born then! What made Him worthy? Simply be raised from the dead to BECOME our Redeemer. This has nothing to do with the timing of the rapture. FACTS! You don't understand the timing of these first five seals! Neither do you understand what God intended they mean. However, I believe you THINK you do. Until you really understand, timing here is NOT your calling!

No you overlook the facts, and the emphasis, which is on the Lamb being slain, and in Heaven, at the right hand of God the whole time. NO MAN was found, but a slain Lamb was found, its called prose, it's called a Metaphor, of course Jesus is the Lamb of God. It's the Lambs Wrath.

These are events that happen AFTER he Church Age as seen in Rev. 2 and 3. The HEREAFTER as mentioned in Rev. 4:1. The Church is seen in the THRONE ROOM in Rev. chapters 4 and 5, BEFORE the Seals are opened !! Let that sink in for a moment. Saints do not go to Heaven when they die, we await the calling to Heaven by Jesus, thus the DEAD in Christ rise first, at the END, just before the 70th Week. I understand they are opened at the midway point of the 70th Week.

"The book of Revelation is in perfect order, if you know how to read it."
I agree with this statement,, for it is TRUTH - but don't agree much with the rest of what you say!

Meaning Rev. 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and 19 happened during Rev. chapters 6, 7, 8, 9, 15&16. Except Rev. 14 and 19 cover the full 7 years of the 70th Week and Rev. 11 starts 75 days before the Seals are opened.

UNtil you get the timing of the first seals, you will be wrong on most everything. And you will not get the timing right until you understand that chapters 4 & 5 give us that timing.

Basically no one n Christendom agrees with your Seal theory brother.

 

[Revealing Times]

You are funny! You imagine you have the truth on timing, when you are 2000 years off!

Did you just not notice that the church or the Bride is NOT SEEN in heaven in chapter 4, no, not in chapter 5, no, not even in chapter 6! Not until chapter 7, shortly after the 6th seal, is the Bride of Christ seen in heaven - as that great crowd too large to number. The number of the raptured will be an astounding number, around 50 generations of believers!

WRONG....We see the Church in Rev 4:4, 5:9, they re THE REDEEMED and those in White Raiment, which are called the Saints in Rev. 19:8 as per being in White. You are just denying what the Scriptures clearly say brother.

The Bride are seen again in Heaven in Rev. 7:9-17, they (WE) are there for 7 years, the whole time of the 70th Week. 1260 days on each side of the Seals being opened. The Great Multitude in Rev. 5:9 and Rev. 7:9-17 are the SAME BRIDE !!

Go back and read it AGAIN! It is JOHN called up to heaven for the purpose of us having this great book of Revelation to read! Rev. 4:1 has NOTHING to do with anything but JOHN being called up.

The Church Age ends....John will be in Heaven, he saw a vision of THE FUTURE !! God shows us the Future in Visions !! Rev. 4:1 is of course the Rapture.

John (backed by the Holy Spirit) used the color white 16 times in Revelation to represent righteousness. And you imagine just this one time God would cause John to use white to represent something evil! Amazing!

A White Horse throughout History has stood for a Conqueror. No REREAD Rev. 6 and the First Seal, he is sent forth Conquering and to Conquer, then on Rev. 19 we see Jesus goes forth to Conquer on a White Horse. One has a Royal Crown, and is dressed as a King of kings, the other has a crown made of wreaths, won by a person in a "competition" Whereas Jesus was a true King, this Anti-Christ was an imposter, he BOW really means PLAIN CLOTHES or SIMPLE CLOTHING, meaning he is not the Christ but the Anti-Christ. White Linen and White Horses are totally different things brother.

Do you not understand that advancing the GOSPEL would require overcoming and conquering? The demonic principalities were not just going to stand aside and allow the gospel into new areas without a fight! Do you remember the struggles Paul went through? Every new city was a new struggle. But Satan just could not stop Paul! Neither could he keep the gospel confined to that 1/4 of the earth he was allowed to work in.

That has nothing to do with these Seals, the Church Age is over. Take a step back and relook at the facts brother, follow the facts, the Church is seen in Heaven BEFORE the Seals are opened as the Bride of Christ. That is not going to change. You are conflating scriptures brother. What you say about the Church is true, however it doesn't apply because the Church Age is OVER by this time !!

Sorry, but Strongs MISSED IT BIG TIME with a simply ribbon kind of bow! The Greek word is TOXON, and this is the word used every time in the Greek Septuagint for a bow that shoots arrows. This Greek word is where we get our English word TOXIC. Toxon for bow came from the poison used on the arrows.

I think they got it right because it goes with a FAKE CROWN or LOWLY CROWN, but it is irrelevant and changes nothing if it's a BOW because the Anti-Christ goes forth to Conquer. So the point is moot in reality.

The crown, 4735, is used in this verse: "there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness." It also is a crown standing for VICTORY. Sorry, but the beast will NEVER have such a crown.

In Rev. 6:2 a different word is used ON PURPOSE !!

#4735 Στέφανος stephanos {stef'-an-os}

from an apparently primary stepho (to twine or wreathe);

From an apparently primary "stepho" (to twine or wreathe); a chaplet (as a badge of royalty, a prize in the public games or a symbol of honor generally; but more conspicuous and elaborate than the simple fillet, G1238), literally or figuratively:—crown.

VS.

#1238 διάδημα diadema {dee-ad'-ay-mah} #1238 G1223

1) a diadem
1a) a blue band marked with white which Persian kings used to bind
on the turban or tiara
1b) the kingly ornament for the head, the crown
==============================================

The different word was used ON PURPOSE....One is won in a game....in a war, whilst the other is a REGAL CROWN that is inherited. One is a Kingly Crown while the other is a Wreath. The Beast is the Beast because he Conquers Jerusalem and the world !! That = VICTORY.

Bottom line? "Basic stuff" to you is ERROR to those who know the truth. God would NEVER use the color white 16 times for righteousness and then use it once for evil. No, never. The first seal "white" STILL represents righteousness, because the first seal is the GOSPEL going forth.

Maybe you need t study the White Horse lingo more. Nobody else sees it like you brother.

There is definitely a difference in the Greek texts for this verse. I think these translations make it clear the four beasts are not saying "US" for the redeemed.

Jesus is not going to Reveal the name of the Anti-Christ until he breaks the Seal.
Why don't we just go be what is WRITTEN! He is not going to be revealed until he enters the temple and declares he is God.

I think anyone that seeks to change types of the bible are just fooling themselves. It is what it is, there is no denying the Church is seen in Heaven before the seals are opened.

He is revealed as the BEAST at the First Seal, that is when he Conquers Jerusalem, that makes him THE BEAST !!

 

[Douggg]

He is revealed as the BEAST at the First Seal, that is when he Conquers Jerusalem, that makes him THE BEAST !!

People around the world choose to worship him as God because he conquers Jerusalem?

 

[Revealing Times]

People around the world choose to worship him as God because he conquers Jerusalem?

No, that just WRONG THINK brother. He Conquers MANY, not just Jerusalem. You have Jerusalem and a Messianic Jewish leader all on the brain all the time, and the bible doesn't say that, BUT you think it does.

Was Babylon just a Beast over Jerusalem/Israel ? Go Google the Babylonian Empire. Was Persia just a Beast of Jerusalem/Israel ? No. Was Greece and Rime just a Beast over Jerusalem and Israel ? No, they were all Beasts over the whole Mediterranean Sea Region !!

He will DESTROY MANY by Peace Daniel 8:24-25, he will make a Covenant with MANY Daniel 9:27 and he will then CONQUER THE MANY NATIONS as we see in Daniel 11:40-43.

Have you grasped what THE MANY means yet ? It's the whole Mediterranean Sea Region !!

You are the one making it all about Jerusalem/Israel, God is speaking about MANY....you have it all about Israel and their supposed KING which the bible never says that they receive as their King, only Douggg says that.