Stuck in Catholic tradition

[Thursday]

In the 1800's the denomination of choice here in these Virginians was the Methodist church. It was a denomination that was frequently in revival, on up to 1900. From 1900 to 2000 many of these churches became Pentecostal. And then after 2000 many of these churches become Charismatic. It is my estimation that a good revival only last a couple of generations.

Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? - 1 Corinthians 5:6
Whan maistrie comth, the God of Love anon Beteth hise wynges, and farewel, he is gon! Love is a thyng as any spirit fre! - Chaucer

Just the least little bit of human ego... And the whole lump is bad! It is a problem with Christianity. Once they think they have arrived it is like the Spirit beats his wings... And... Farewell! He is gone! We should never come to the place where we think we arrive!

A long post in an effort to avoid the point.

Good work.

 

[rockytopva]

A long post in an effort to avoid the point.

Good work.

"It is not fitting, when one is in God's service, to have a gloomy face or a chilling look." - Francis of Assisi

What are we to do when the church turns gloomy and chilling?

 

[116 Disciple]

Jesus appointed Church leaders, gave them his authority, and told the rest of us to listen to the leaders.

Jesus said that if we reject those he sent we are rejecting him.

We don't all have the same responsibility, authority, or role in the body of Christ. If we assign ourselves a role different from God's will, then we will have confusion. That's what we see in protestantism, where each Church creates its own doctrine and dogmas and interprets the scripture as they see fit.

Oh yea I agree on that, I was simply saying that we as Christians make up the body we are the church, that's why we see evangelist out there musicians for Christ and such people because that's there role were the body and Christ is the Head of body

 

[jimmyjimmy]

We don't all have the same responsibility, authority, or role in the body of Christ. If we assign ourselves a role different from God's will, then we will have confusion.

I finally find agreement with you about something.

 

[ScottA]

Then some churches must be teaching false doctrines since they are contradicting other churches.

Yes, I am sure that is true. The other possibility is that the difference is not a difference in doctrine, but in their spiritual gifts and they are just specializing in certain areas and simply appear to be different.

 

[BobRyan]

Does the Holy Spirit teach different doctrines to different churches?

Clearly he does not if you mean "contradictory doctrines to different churches"

 

[BobRyan]

Many protestant churches teach the exact opposite doctrine.

So then.. "no schism" no "division" at all within the RCC or between the RCC and every other Christian church??

 

[BobRyan]

This is your mistake.

Jesus started a single Church that is led in all truth.

And then later error came in - and eventually we had the RCC as well as some other groups. Took a long time.

(And the NT writers tell us that error was already coming in -- in their day)

 

[BobRyan]

Then some churches must be teaching false doctrines since they are contradicting other churches.

And for those who prefer the actual Bible - "some churches must be teaching false doctrine since they are contradicting in the case of some of their doctrines"

 

[Extraneous]

"It is not fitting, when one is in God's service, to have a gloomy face or a chilling look." - Francis of Assisi

What are we to do when the church turns gloomy and chilling?

You have a point, but in life people have both sad times and joyful times. Its the same with David and the Apostles as well. It seems good not to try and hide it, but rather to persevere through it, and that's what the cross is about, which we bear as well. I know it sounds strange maybe, but to people who are suffering it can be a comfort to know that other Christians are suffering too. It can however be less than edifying for others to not share our struggle, or to discount it as something wrong. The bible does say to Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep (Romans 12:15) I guess im fixated on this idea because i suffer depression at times, yet i believe it can be a time of blessing too, because we can cast our cares on the Lord, and talk to him, and wait on Him as David teaches us. I believe we can grow in a deeper relationship with the Lord this way. I believe this is exactly what David and the apostles did as well.

 

[Cis.jd]

Doesn't Catholicism say that if you leave the church you will lose your salvation and go to hell? I can see how fear of that happening could scare anyone into staying around. The thing is, though, Jesus didn't ever say that. The only way to lose your salvation is to completely reject Christ. Rejecting a church organization is not rejecting Christ. Christ is greater than any fear mongering religion and you can always trust Him because He will always love you. Perfect love casts out fear, and Christ is perfect love. Praying that you will experience His perfect peace.

Never heard that. Some Catholics believe that in rejecting the Church you additionally reject Jesus but in no way is there anything said by Roman Catholic doctrine that leaving the RC and jumping into Protestantism (given that the protestant denomination believes in Jesus) condemns them to hell.

I am raised Catholic my hold family are Catholics and I am a practicing Catholic for the last 6 years. I started to read the bible and realised that the church tradition wasn't scripture. A friend of mine Is a baptist and I met him a few times I could see the love of Christ he had when he spoke about him. I wanted to know more about how to build a relationship with Christ through scripture. I be doing good and them BOOM I get anxiety and I run back to Catholic tradition. It spiritual drains me and bothers be but I can't let go of the safe of Catholic tradition. I don't meet to offend anyone here or any Catholics because in the end of the day it's a personal relationship with Christ that counts but I know in my the Catholic Church isn't for my but I can't understand why I'm so fearful to let it go.
Can anyone help me or have any suggestions how and what to pray around this.
Thanks again my intentions isn't to upset or disrespect anyone's believes.

I was raised as a Baptist but ended up converting to Catholicism because of reading the scripture. Catholic tradition is strictly scripture, we canonized it as proof and a reference for us. However, we also take in mind that not everything that the early christians did is found in the Bible but ancient/historical artifacts within Christendom. Anybody can claim they've read the Bible and saw a version of truth that their current church wasn't doing. John Smith and Charles Taze Russell felt that their protestant denomination wasn't following the true meaning of scripture, and so did the other founders of the 5,000+ protestant denominations we have today. Catholics just don't want to forget the early christians and hold their ways in great value because they learned straight from the Apostles - who learned straight from Christ.

I do agree that Catholicism, being too theological, can't bank the whole love for God as a Protestant can. IMO, the relationship and love you have for Christ is the most important one, it's the main rule... and Catholics these days focus too much on the religion and less on the relationship. It comes off as too robotic, a chore, and just a turn off. Protestants have a much more active and loving set of groups and they focus more on the Love of God for life application purposes. While I do think Catholicism has the better, smarter, and all around academically and scripturally supported theology. It is the relationship and love for Christ that matters the most, and this is what Protestants have over the Catholics. To be honest, if i did encounter a non-christian who is interested in converting to Jesus, I would recommend that he goes to a protestant church because there he will experience and know the Love of God and enjoy it, while in the Catholic Church he will get oblivious and bored straight. He will sit, while others kneel, he will likely fall asleep and have no clue what the Priest is talking about.. Protestants actually give a biblical based message for the common life experiences and how to over come them through God and through his word.

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

I do agree that Catholicism, being too theological, can't bank the whole love for God as a Protestant can. IMO, the relationship and love you have for Christ is the most important one, it's the main rule... and Catholics these days focus too much on the religion and less on the relationship. It comes off as too robotic, a chore, and just a turn off. Protestants have a much more active and loving set of groups and they focus more on the Love of God for life application purposes. While I do think Catholicism has the better, smarter, and all around academically and scripturally supported theology. It is the relationship and love for Christ that matters the most, and this is what Protestants have over the Catholics. To be honest, if i did encounter a non-christian who is interested in converting to Jesus, I would recommend that he goes to a protestant church because there he will experience and know the Love of God and enjoy it, while in the Catholic Church he will get oblivious and bored straight. He will sit, while others kneel, he will likely fall asleep and have no clue what the Priest is talking about.. Protestants actually give a biblical based message for the common life experiences and how to over come them through God and through his word.

Its good to see some catholics notice that. Having been to a few funerals at catholic churches, the roboticness of it all turns me off. Come in. Do the thing with the water. Kneel in the pew. Priest say something, you say something, he says something, you say something. Sing same song again. Do some hail marys for sins. Confess to a priest. Prayer beads to the rescue....etc. Yet when I ask people about God they simple say things like "God is real!". But they have no idea anything past that like theres no relationship with Him. Hes just a thing they learn about at church and thats it. My family is italian and all are catholic (but my parents). And they don't seem to know anything about the bible (they never read it). They never question anything. They simply listen to the pope. Actually all of them are for most things the bible is against (gay marriage, abortion...etc). I never heard them talk about their religion other then news about the pope or someone who dies and had a funeral at the church.

To be fair this is just one church. And its mostly italian. They seem more "club" like then anything else. Anywho... not bashing them of course. I just never liked anything robotic when it comes to God.

 

[Cis.jd]

Its good to see some catholics notice that. Having been to a few funerals at catholic churches, the roboticness of it all turns me off. Come in. Do the thing with the water. Kneel in the pew. Priest say something, you say something, he says something, you say something. Sing same song again. Do some hail marys for sins. Confess to a priest. Prayer beads to the rescue....etc. Yet when I ask people about God they simple say things like "God is real!". But they have no idea anything past that like theres no relationship with Him. Hes just a thing they learn about at church and thats it. My family is italian and all are catholic (but my parents). And they don't seem to know anything about the bible (they never read it). They never question anything. They simply listen to the pope. Actually all of them are for most things the bible is against (gay marriage, abortion...etc). I never heard them talk about their religion other then news about the pope or someone who dies and had a funeral at the church.

To be fair this is just one church. And its mostly italian. They seem more "club" like then anything else. Anywho... not bashing them of course. I just never liked anything robotic when it comes to God.

Yes, this is the problem with Catholicism in a whole. Typically, the person who grew up in a Catholic home is likely unreligious or just doesn't care to know more or live a christian life (sure, we can not generalize but from my experience = the kid who grew up as a Protestant is more God loving than a Catholic). It's more of a Sunday only thing.. the go in the door, do what you got to do, then go out. It's way to likely for a Catholic to just get burned out from the Christian life because of the repeated and unlively style of worship. You will likely get burned out by religion and just build a huge disinterest in going deep in christianity because the Mass itself is seriously boring. Too much theology, too much "you must do this", and less reasons in where the person can experience a relationship with God that isn't just based off ancient writings.

However, there are a number of Catholic churches that hold organizations and groups that are leaning towards the evangelical side (research on the St Paul the Apostle in NYC, and Bo Sanchez of the Philippines). It is almost hard to distinct them from a Protestant pastor because they have incorporated those things, but it's very hard to find and it does take a lot of effort (and sometimes money) to really find these groups.

What I am talking about IS the most important thing about Christianity. The Christian life means more than the Christian knowledge.. sure, we must be intelligent and equipped to defend the scripture but we have to keep a relationship with God stronger than the religion. Jesus did not come here to teach us religion, he came here to repair and renew the relationship between man and God. He revealed God, not just as the divine being that should be revered but revealed God as an actual Heavenly father.

 

[BobRyan]

I was raised as a Baptist but ended up converting to Catholicism because of reading the scripture. Catholic tradition is strictly scripture, we canonized it as proof .

Until you notice "the inconvenient details"

1. The RCC did not exist in the first century.
2. The RCC did not write the OT - and Josephus points out it was a fixed canon for over 400 years by the time of Christ,
3. Luke 24 - Christ taught from "All of scripture" a concept known to folks in Christ's day centuries before the RCC.
4. you just said you "were a baptist" -- when you say "we canonized" the Bible and - do you mean Baptists??

Now given that you became Catholic "sola scriptura" as a Baptist - tell us the Baptist stand on
CCC 958 "Communion with the Dead" -
Purgatory
Indulgences
Infant baptism
bowing down to images in worship and serving those non-god entities that they represent - despite what Exodus 20 says to the contrary.
Lateran IV calling for the "extermination of heretics and Jews" -- ecumenical and supposedly infallible council - canon law.




in Christ,

Bob

 

[Cis.jd]

Until you notice "the inconvenient details"

1. The RCC did not exist in the first century.
2. The RCC did not write the OT - and Josephus points out it was a fixed canon for over 400 years by the time of Christ,
3. Luke 24 - Christ taught from "All of scripture" a concept known to folks in Christ's day centuries before the RCC.
4. you just said you "were a baptist" -- when you say "we canonized" the Bible and - do you mean Baptists??

Bob

1. Highly false. Unless you mean the term "Catholicism" and much more "Roman Catholicism". Catholics try to remain consistent to the ways of the first century christianity.
2. No one claims RCC wrote the OT, the claim is Catholics canonized the scripture.. the NT to be exact.
3. No one argues against this, but Christ did not write scripture. He taught his apostles, and they converted it to writing while also passing his teachings down to their own apostles.
4. No I mean Catholics canonized the Bible, not Baptists. Baptists didn't exist until hundreds of years after the Canonized NT (1602 i think).

Now given that you became Catholic "sola scriptura" as a Baptist - tell us the Baptist stand on
CCC 958 "Communion with the Dead" -
Purgatory
Indulgences
Infant baptism
bowing down to images in worship and serving those non-god entities that they represent - despite what Exodus 20 says to the contrary.
Lateran IV calling for the "extermination of heretics and Jews" -- ecumenical and supposedly infallible council - canon law.

Purgatory is based off scripture. The councils who put the Trinity in doctrine were the same people who put purgatory in doctrine; they used the same method for the doctrine of Purgatory as with the doctrine of the Trinity. This and indulgence are biblical base, and for you to deny this kinda forces you to do the same with the trinity because both doctrines were put in by the same councils. Even the Jews believed in a state prior to the final destination, and believed in praying for the souls that departed.

Infant Baptism is based off tradition. During the time of the Christian persecution lead by Nero, Christians and their families were getting slaughtered left and right. This included infants of Christian parents. So Infant Baptism was done just in case the Baby died. We are just keeping consistent to what the early christians did. You are forced to criticize the early 1 CE Christians for doing this as well.

First, it is fact in pyschology that humans need a visual image to feel more emotion and concentration.. when your deceased love one dies, you carry a picture of that person in your home. It's just for remembrance.
You can go to any park in the US or any museum, and you will see paintings to statues of national heroes.. it's just for remembrance.
Next, one of the main roots for statues is that during the time, people could not read the Bible at all. Therefore images were made just to assist them in building knowledge as to who these people where, who christ was and what he did, and the showing what is in the Bible and christian teachings. In short, it was to teach them scripture but not through words by visual aid.
We don't worship images the way you described it. Ex 20 forbids the adoration of images, but you can see verses in the Bible in where God commands the building of statues at a temple. Ex. 25:18–20 is an example, here you have God instructing the building of Cherubim statues. In 1 Chr. 28:18–19 God commands that statues of Angels were to be built in his temple. Why not criticize David and Judaism as well, why just us? We only use statues as a visual assist, because we are human and a visual assist just strengthens our psychology more when we pray. We go to the saints and angels for the sake of asking them for assisted prayers.

 

[Goodbook]

To OP.
You are welcome to check out the baptist forum and read the posts and ask questions there. Im sorry you brought up in a religion that places stumbling blocks for its adherents and disses all other christians. GOd can bring you out of it and show you through his Word how to be faithful to Him instead of a man made institiution and traditions.

Keeping reading His Word. May He bless you and keep you.

 

[Thursday]

So then.. "no schism" no "division" at all within the RCC or between the RCC and every other Christian church??

The Catholic Church teaches a doctrine that has not changed in 2000 years. Doctrine does not change, it is revelation from God.

 

[Thursday]

Until you notice "the inconvenient details"

1. The RCC did not exist in the first century.
2. The RCC did not write the OT - and Josephus points out it was a fixed canon for over 400 years by the time of Christ,
3. Luke 24 - Christ taught from "All of scripture" a concept known to folks in Christ's day centuries before the RCC.


N

1) False. Jesus started a single Church and it existed and was spreading rapidly in the first century. We have the letter of Pope Clement, the fourth pope, writing to the Corinthians in about 90 AD. They had consulted him about a dispute and he settled the dispute based on his authority as leader of the Church.

2) No one has claimed the Catholic Church wrote OT. The Church did write, compile, proclaim, and preserve the New Testament.

3) ?? I have no idea what this means.

Are you referring to this:

Luke 10
16“Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

 

[Thursday]

And for those who prefer the actual Bible - "some churches must be teaching false doctrine since they are contradicting in the case of some of their doctrines"

The bible doesn't settle most doctrinal disputes. In fact, these multiple churches who lean on their own authority ALL claim to be based on the bible.

From the same bible we see totally opposite doctrines emerging.

That's why Jesus didn't give us a book, he gave us a Church.

 

[Thursday]

And then later error came in

What happened to the promise of Jesus that the gates of Hell would not prevail against his Church?

What happened to the Church being led in the fullness of truth?

When did it become acceptable for a Christian to reject the Church in your opinion?