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Struggling With The Sabbath

Steeno7

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I am going to be honest with you. From your few posts I have read you seem like an extremely rude individual so I am asking that you please no longer converse with me or respond to my posts as I did not come here to argue but to be edified and edify others. The state of my soul and salvation is only known to God as I continually seek to know him and become more like him. Frankly I have noticed that some people come on here only to argue so I'm asking if this is your path that you'd kindly move along.

On the contrary, your post begs the question. If you are a Christian then what is the LDS even doing on your list let alone number one? You do know they are not Christian, right?
 
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Cribstyl

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Romans 14:1 As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions.

The key to understanding Romans is the first verse. If you didn't know whether meat at a community meal had been offered to idols and chose to eat only vegetables to stay on the safe side, then that was your opinion. If you felt free to everything at a community meal, then that was your opinion. However, if you felt free to disregard God's dietary laws, than that was disobedience to God.
I don't recall any discussion about a dietary laws in this context?



Luke 18:11-12 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’

Didache 8:1 Your fasts should not be with the hypocrites, for they fast on Mondays and Thursdays. You should fast on Wednesdays and Fridays.

Romans 14:6 makes it clear that regarding one day as more sacred than another is in regard to fasting. Fasting twice a week was a common practice in the 1st century and was often done to commemorate certain days, but it was a matter of opinion. Like the Pharisees and in the Didache, people were judging each other according whether they fasted and when they fasted, but the only time God commanded people to fast was Yom Kippur. So again, Paul was talking about disputable matters of opinion, not about obedience to the commands of God.

There had differences of opinion about how to keep the Sabbath, but they didn't have differences of opinion about whether to keep it. The Sabbath is not even mentioned in Romans 14.

We have a major difference of opinion on what these scriptures are saying and what you're talking about.

Rom 14:4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.
Rom 14:5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.

Rom 14:6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.
 
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VictorC

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I am going to be honest with you. From your few posts I have read you seem like an extremely rude individual so I am asking that you please no longer converse with me or respond to my posts as I did not come here to argue but to be edified and edify others. The state of my soul and salvation is only known to God as I continually seek to know him and become more like him. Frankly I have noticed that some people come on here only to argue so I'm asking if this is your path that you'd kindly move along.
You won't meet a nicer fellow than Steeno7 on this forum. I considered his an honest question - which is rude on your part to simply dismiss.
 
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GracetotheHumble

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Please prove us wrong. Name the organization you are at least flirting with if not a member. While you are at it please tell us exactly why you are trying to keep the Sabbath. I am confident we can prove without doubt you are not keeping the Sabbath as mentioned in Ex 20:8-11. There is no amending of the Ten Commandments.

You kind of seem rather hostile which is not a good sign as I doubt that Christ went around being hostile all the time. Anyway these are the Churches I have attended in my life and the ones I am currently investigating.

Attended or was member

Church Of The Nazarene - 18 years
United Pentecostal - 3 months
Calvary Chapel - 11 years
Calvary Chapel Bible College - 3 years
Calvary Chapel Youth Pastor - 6 months
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints - 8 months
Lutheran Church Missouri Synod - 2 years
Sovereign Grace Fellowship (Community) - 1 month

Currently Investigating

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints - attended this past Sunday
Seventh Day Adventist
United Church of God
26:8 Church
Seventh Day Baptists
Church of God (Seventh Day)


You are asking why do I keep the Sabbath currently? Well the answer is quite complex. God rested on the seventh day when he created the world and also it is the 4th commandment.

You say you can prove that I don't keep the Sabbath according to our Fathers command and I would like to see how you are going to do that since the command is to rest on the 7th day as he did when he created the world which is exactly what I do.

God bless you. Grace.
 
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GracetotheHumble

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You won't meet a nicer fellow than Steeno7 on this forum. I considered his an honest question - which is rude on your part to simply dismiss.

Well then I'll probably place you in his camp because birds of a feather typically flock together. Accusing someone of not being a Christian when they have clearly identified as someone who has faith in Jesus Christ is actually extremely rude. So if you wish to continue your behavior in a similar manner I guess I also ask that you not converse with me as well.
 
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SilverBlade

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Actually its quite possible to keep the sabbath in America as I have been keeping it for 6 months. I begin resting at dusk Friday and end when 3 stars come out on Saturday night. I spend Friday preparing any food I may need so I don't buy anything on the Sabbath and I do not watch television and I try to do no work. Sometimes its a struggle not to be tempted to check emails and bank accounts. I am still working on that. But mainly on the Sabbath I try to focus only on God, resting, and family. The Sabbath has actually become my favorite day of the week and I consider it a delight. I have also found that it is a great day to make donations and read. I learn more on the Sabbath than any other day and the rest I receive I have found really revitalizes my body. But I do still have some doubts and questions I guess I'm still learning. God bless.

If:

- Your heat/AC/HRV unit is on during this time, you've automatically broken it. According to the 'electricity equal fire equal work' rule, these must be turned off, or unplugged.
- You flush your toilet, washed hands, you've broken it.
- You have a shower, you've broken it
- You have your fridge/stove/microwave/TV/PVR even plugged in, you've broken it (as most appliances consume small bits of electricity even if they are not in use. The PVR uses the most of this 'phantom power' as it's always downloading guide information from the cable company).
 
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Soyeong

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In Romans 6 we died were raised to new life in Jesus opposed to life in Adam (the old man). In Romans 7 Paul reverses the issues and the law died. The husband represents the law. Paul come to the conclusion that Now we are delivered from the law just as his analogy states. Paul also says it is foolish to return to the law in Gal 3. The law has absolutely nothing to do with salvation before or after the new birth and redemption.

The point of Romans 6 is that was a set free from our old master, our sin nature, to become slaves of our new master, though obedience to the law, which leads to righteousness and sanctification. Sanctification does not come about through disobedience to God's commands, but rather it is His Spirit that enables of to keep them and to transform us to be more like Christ in his obedience to God.

If the husband is the law, then it doesn't work, because we're the ones who died, not the husband. But that's beside the point because Paul states as he is speaking to those Jews and Gentiles who understand the law, so he's using an example from it. It's only no wonder that those who don't understand the law fail to grasp his point. The wife was not delivered from the marriage law by the death of her husband, but from the penalty it would require if she lived with another man while he was still alive.

The Galatians were already saved by faith, but they had begun listening to people who were saying that they had to become Jews and obey the law and oral law in order to be saved. The law was never intended to be kept legalistically in that manner, so Paul was warning them against a perversion of the law, not the law itself.

We are not part if Israel in any shape or form. There is no Jew or Gentile in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:28 and Col 2. If you like my friend bugkiller can prove Israelism is a false teaching. The Christians is not part of the commonwealth of Israel. We share in its provision (Jesus the Messiah).

Ephesians 2:12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Ephesians 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens,[d] but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,

You're in direct disagreement with Paul here. Believers are all God's people and as God's people, we should all do as He instructs.

You argue falsely against the Scripture. In Rom 6 it plainly states not under the law in 14 and 15. The law has no jurisdiction.

If someone is driving down a road with a speed limit of 70 mph, but his wife doesn't like him driving too fast, so he sets his cruise control to 60 mph, then he is not under that law. By exceeding the minimum requirements of the law out of love for his wife, he is driving as though though there is no speed limit. The penalties of the law are not for the righteous, but for the unrighteous.

Similarly, if someone offered to pay for every park fine you ever got, you would no longer be under that law. The law would still be there and you could still break it, but you couldn't be condemned by it. However, that doesn't mean that you should feel free to break that law as much as you want, it would still be good to obey it.

The point Paul is making is in regard to the penalty of the law and in Romans 8:1 that therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Messiah, not that there are no instructions for how to practice righteousness for those who are in Messiah. According to Ephesians 2:10 and 1 John 3:10, those who are in Messiah are those who practice righteousness. We know how to practice righteousness and do good works because God has given us instructions in His Torah for our to do that.

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Jesus is not teaching or telling other to keep the law.

Jesus was the one who gave the Torah, so all of it is included in his commandments and is exactly what Jesus was telling them to obey.

You can not earn salvation. It is a free gift without obligation. Self righteousness will only earn you a warm retirement. The wages of sin is death. There are no wages of eternal life. That is a free gift and can not be earned.

He never said anything about earning salvation. That's not why God gave the law to Moses in the first place.
 
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GracetotheHumble

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If:

- Your heat/AC/HRV unit is on during this time, you've automatically broken it. According to the 'electricity equal fire equal work' rule, these must be turned off, or unplugged.
- You flush your toilet, washed hands, you've broken it.
- You have a shower, you've broken it
- You have your fridge/stove/microwave/TV/PVR even plugged in, you've broken it (as most appliances consume small bits of electricity even if they are not in use. The PVR uses the most of this 'phantom power' as it's always downloading guide information from the cable company).

This is a perfect example of why Jesus Christ despised the Pharisees. The whole idea of the Sabbath is to rest, read, recover, draw near to God, and worship him. Not to cough at gnats and swallow camels.
 
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VictorC

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You are asking why do I keep the Sabbath currently? Well the answer is quite complex. God rested on the seventh day when he created the world and also it is the 4th commandment.
The "4th commandment" of what, exactly?
Your statement doesn't offer any valid reason to "keep" (anything but Holy) the Sabbath.
 
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Soyeong

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VictorC said:
No, it isn't. The Sabbath remains a component of the Mosaic covenant, and you won't find a Sabbath commandment outside that covenant's tenure. It was exclusive to the children of Israel (Exodus 31:12-17) and doesn't appear as a commandment to the Gentile nations outside Israel's borders, nor to those who are no longer accounted as the children of Israel because of God's adoption.

According to Ephesians 2:12 and 2:19, Gentiles are full citizens in the commonwealth of Israel, so we should obey the instructions that God has given to His people. I mean it seems to me that joining a new nation or new religion would be the times where you would expect to have to learn to follow new laws, not when you would feel free to disregard their laws.

Galatians 4
Now I say that the heir, as long as he is a child, does not differ at all from a slave, though he is master of all, 2 but is under guardians and stewards until the time appointed by the father. 3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

When a child has reached the point where they no longer need a guardian or steward to instruct them, is that that the point where you would expect the child to disregard everything they had been taught, or that they are now mature enough to do as they were instructed on their own?

Being under the the law means being under it's penalty, so when the Messiah paid the penalty for our transgression of the law, that's how he redeemed us. Paul said in Romans 6:15 that being under this grace doesn't me we are to continue to transgress the law, so it's not talking about doing away with the instruction of the law, but rather that's still how we are supposed to practice righteousness. We were slaves to our old master, our sin nature, and set free to serve a new master though obedience to the law.
 
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GracetotheHumble

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The "4th commandment" of what, exactly?
Your statement doesn't offer any valid reason to "keep" (anything but Holy) the Sabbath.

Sir I guess I am a little unsure about your question. You are aware that God wrote 10 Commandments in stone right? And you are also aware that #4 is "Remember the Sabbath day and to keep it holy". So I guess I'm a little unsure what you are asking. You have seen the movie with Heston?
 
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Soyeong

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VictorC said:
No, and no - on both claims. The Bible addresses various audiences in differing dispensations, and we aren't grafted into Israel - we are grafted into the Root that supports Israel as well as whoever God grants His adoption to.

Ephesians 2:12 and 2:19 says that Gentiles are now full citizens of the commonwealth of Israel by faith in Messiah. We are now all God's people and should follow the instructions He has given to His people to follow. The root is Messiah who is the root and unites us.

Agreed - it is called 'new' in contrast to the first (as Hebrews calls it) covenant or old (as 2 Corinthians calls it) covenant. Language directed toward the Gentiles doesn't refer to a new covenant per se, as the new covenant in the Blood of Jesus Christ is the only covenant made with the Gentiles - and there is nothing to contrast it with.

The Renewed Covenant involves the law being written on our hearts, so while it has better promises, a better mediator, and a better sacrifice, God's instructions for how to practice righteousness did not change.
 
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Steeno7

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Ephesians 2:12 and 2:19 says that Gentiles are now full citizens of the commonwealth of Israel by faith in Messiah. We are now all God's people and should follow the instructions He has given to His people to follow. The root is Messiah who is the root and unites us.



The Renewed Covenant involves the law being written on our hearts, so while it has better promises, a better mediator, and a better sacrifice, God's instructions for how to practice righteousness did not change.

There is no "renewed" covenant.
 
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Soyeong

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Hello. I guess my doubts and questions come in because I see some people making good points on both sides of the argument so I am still a little confused.

No I am not involved with a Church right now. I have been traveling and moving a lot and also been in jail and the hospital recently so right now I'm investigating Churches and studying this issue of the Sabbath further. I was really interested in attending a Church called 26:8 Church when I was living in Idaho but it was around 20 miles away and I couldn't get a ride. Now I'm in another area and I'm currently investigating the SDA, Seventh Day Baptists, United Church of God, as well as some Churches that meet on Sunday.

To be completely honest with you right now I am leaning towards The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints but the SDA are in second place. I'm going to continue observing the Sabbath on Saturday until I rest the issue in my mind and choose a Church for sure.

Hello, I encourage you to also consider Messianic Judaism. We recently went through the book of Romans verse by verse and have 50 lessons posted online. There are also some excellent audio teachings about God's Feasts and some good articles. Please let me know if you have any questions.

https://www.rabbiyeshua.com/kehilat-store/audio-teachings
 
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VictorC

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According to Ephesians 2:12 and 2:19, Gentiles are full citizens in the commonwealth of Israel, so we should obey the instructions that God has given to His people.
No, you're reading something absent into a text that clearly starts with "at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise" and finishing with "through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father". This doesn't support a premise of joining Israel's former covenant Gentiles remain a stranger to.

Now, to address your second statement: it is equally heinous to invent a commandment that doesn't exist as it is to disobey a commandment that does. That's what is absent in this entire discourse.
Being under the the law means being under it's penalty...
This is a false premise.
Being under the Law describes a positional authority of the Law being superior to the person under it. It describes jurisdiction, and nothing more. That's consistent with statements made describing who the Law speaks to:
Romans 3
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
If you were to follow this epistle to chapter 7, you will find that we establish the Law identified by quoting from the Genesis record (3:31-4:3) and those who know the Law (7:1) are delivered from the Law that held them in the past tense (7:6), that is identified by a quote from Exodus 20:17 and Deuteronomy 5:21 (7:7).

Your other comments depend on these premises that are false.
 
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VictorC

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Sir I guess I am a little unsure about your question. You are aware that God wrote 10 Commandments in stone right? And you are also aware that #4 is "Remember the Sabbath day and to keep it holy". So I guess I'm a little unsure what you are asking. You have seen the movie with Heston?
It didn't take you long to identify the "4th commandment" as part of the Mosaic covenant Moses named the Ten Commandments. That's what we commonly refer to as the old covenant, the central tenet of Judaism. That isn't what we affirm in the new covenant Christianity exists within.
2 Corinthians 3
4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?
 
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VictorC

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The Renewed Covenant...
There is no such thing as a "renewed covenant".
Hebrews 8:13
In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Hebrews 10:9
8 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
 
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GracetotheHumble

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It didn't take you long to identify the "4th commandment" as part of the Mosaic covenant Moses named the Ten Commandments. That's what we commonly refer to as the old covenant, the central tenet of Judaism. That isn't what we affirm in the new covenant Christianity exists within.
2 Corinthians 3
4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?

Well Sir most Sabbath keepers agree that the Sabbath was kept by God's faithful prior to the giving of the 10 Commandments. We can go really deep into this discussion and possibly debate for years. I encourage you to check out: Official Sabbath Debate Jim Staley vs. Chris Rosebourgh Passion For Truth Ministries on youtube.com. I learned a lot from what I watched so far. I'm going to continue learning and hopefully some here will have some valuable insight to share on this issue.
 
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GracetotheHumble

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Hello, I encourage you to also consider Messianic Judaism. We recently went through the book of Romans verse by verse and have 50 lessons posted online. There are also some excellent audio teachings about God's Feasts and some good articles. Please let me know if you have any questions.

Hello Brother, Thank you for the link and recommendations. I will investigate further your suggestion. I know that Messianic congregations can be few and far between. I've never actually visited one although I have desired to. One reason I am preferring a denomination is that I relocate frequently. Anyway thanks for sharing and I will investigate this further.
 
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VictorC

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Well Sir most Sabbath keepers agree that the Sabbath was kept by God's faithful prior to the giving of the 10 Commandments. We can go really deep into this discussion and possibly debate for years. I encourage you to check out: Official Sabbath Debate Jim Staley vs. Chris Rosebourgh Passion For Truth Ministries on youtube.com. I learned a lot from what I watched so far. I'm going to continue learning and hopefully some here will have some valuable insight to share on this issue.
I'm not watching movies on a discussion forum. That isn't what a discussion forum is for. So far you have shown us that you didn't learn anything from allegedly attending an unidentified Bible college for three years, you can't seem to distinguish the cults from Christianity, and your appeal for the Sabbath went straight to the Mosaic covenant from Mount Sinai we have a commandment to cast off our former bondage to (Galatians 4:21-30). Your response was an immediate admission that you're bound to the old covenant, and not the new covenant Christianity depends on. You got problems.

For the origin of the Sabbath, it did predate the declaration of the Ten Commandments by about a month coincident with the manna experience (Exodus 16). That too was with Israel after deliverance from Egyptian bondage. It doesn't include the Gentile nations. It doesn't include Christians who have been adopted as God's own sons and daughters.

I just concluded a number of posts that address the limited jurisdiction that former covenant had. I have posted on how the Gospel of God's redemption made us His own, no longer accounted as the children of Israel who alone received the covenant from Mount Sinai.

He chose us, and adopted us as His children. The Gospel's theme of a legal change from being accounted as either children of Israel or Gentiles "being aliens...strangers...having no hope and without God" (Ephesians 2:12) into the adopted children of God permeates the New Testament enough that we find:
  • Jesus taught Peter about the limited jurisdiction of a given law (taxation in His example) that the King's children are sovereign over in Matthew 17:24-26, and concluded that "the sons are free".
  • John emphasizes the Gospel's recipients "right to become children of God" early on in his Gospel account (John 1:12).
  • And Paul follows the theme Jesus taught (above) as the sovereign Heir's purpose in redemption:
Galatians 4
Now I say that the heir, as long as he is a child, does not differ at all from a slave, though he is master of all, 2 but is under guardians and stewards until the time appointed by the father. 3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.


Those under the law is in the past-tense.
The sabbath was exclusive to the children of Israel (Exodus 31:13), who also had exclusive receipt of the covenant from Mount Sinai embodied in the Ten Commandments (Deuteronomy 4:8-13). The Gentiles were never commanded to keep the sabbath, and that commandment was never given to God's adopted children.

Which is what the joint-heirs of God through Christ are.
If you were asked to keep the sabbath, it wasn't God who did the asking.
We have a Biblical unction to enter into His rest: "Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest", God's rest the context describes wholly apart from the Sabbath.
 
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