Struggling With The Sabbath

[Soyeong]

Do you esteem Saturday?

bugkiller

Not out of personal opinion, but because God blessed it and made it holy.

 

[Soyeong]

Works of the law aren't the natural out flowing of obedience to God in the NC. See Acts 15 for example. If it were natural there wouldn't have been an issue or a council.

bugkiller

I'd actually agree with that, which is why I said obedience to the law was the natural outflowing of faith, not works of the law.

 

[Soyeong]

I do not think of Paul as some ignorant babbling drunk fool not in his right mind.

You have him saying we are obligated to keep the law while he says we are delivered from the law.

The law both instructs how to behave rightly and condemns for behaving sinfully. We have no reason to need to be delivered from holy, righteous, and good instructions, but we do have need of being delivered from being condemned.

 

[Soyeong]

I am at peace with all the issues concerned. I used to be in turmoil until I fully accepted the invitation Jesus issued in Mt 11:28-30. I fought it tooth and toe nail.

A yoke refers to a group or rabbi's interpretation for how to obey the law. By rejecting the law, you are rejecting Jesus' yoke, so you have rejected his invitation.

 

[Soyeong]

but Paul said that the Lord told him, all meats clean in 14:14, and the fact that he said any day for Sab in 14:5, dhows it does not matter what day, Sunday or Wednesday. 14 was about the Sabbath, it had to be, the Jews would not be arguing about any other day.

Indeed, Jesus argued against normally kosher food being made ceremonially unclean by eating it with unwashed hands in Mark 7 and Matthew 15. Regardless of our opinions, there is nothing in itself in ceremonially unclean. If someone didn't know whether meat that was brought on the market had been sacrificed to idols, they might be of the opinion that it was ceremonially unclean, but Paul had been persuaded in the Lord Jesus to think otherwise.

Verse 14:6 shows that esteeming one day as better than another was in the context of fasting, which was a common practice at the time. Inserting the Sabbath into Romans when it's never even mention comes only from anti-law bias. You just assume that Jews wouldn't be talking about any other day, but you don't do any research into the context that shows that they were arguing about something else entirely.

 

[Soyeong]

It is not renewed or the same laws would be verbatim, there is no temple, and Acts 15 said no Torah yoke for the church. No renewed cov. Is God writing on my heart, that i can't eat a lobster in butter?

The laws regarding the levitical priesthood were given separately after the transgression of laws that God had first given His people. The Levitical priesthood was not renewed or intended to be permanent, as the book of Hebrews explains. However, God's instructions for how to live rightly remained the same. Jesus said that his yoke was easy and his burden was light, so clearly there is a yoke for the church, it's just not the yoke of the Pharisees.

 

[Soyeong]

Nope. Under Law OR under Grace. Under the Law there is only the unrelenting demand for total perfect compliance.

But anyway, that is just an irrelevent attempt by you to distract away from your other error being shown for the error that it was.

The grace is in regard to the penalty of the law, not it's instructions for how to live rightly.

 

[Steeno7]

The grace is in regard to the penalty of the law, not it's instructions for how to live rightly.

Slow Monday, eh?

Except the law is not a set of instructions on how to live rightly. It is a set of demands that must be met perfectly, or else. Grace is of no help to those who reject it in favor of the Law. If you are under the Law, you are under the Law, not grace, and the penalty for failure is the same now as it has always been, death.

 

[Soyeong]

Slow Monday, eh?

Except the law is not a set of instructions on how to live rightly. It is a set of demands that must be met perfectly, or else.

Indeed, God didn't just pick random set of instructions to give to His people because He wanted to watch them jump through hoops. Rather, God gave them the law to guide His people in how to act rightly.

Deuteronomy 6:25 And it will be righteousness for us, if we are careful to do all this commandment before the Lord our God, as he has commanded us.’

Moses could have equivalently said, "We will live rightly if were are careful to obey God's instructions." The issue is that God is holy and His standard of righteousness is perfection, so the only way God will declare us right by us living rightly though our own effort is if we do so perfectly. However, we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, but that doesn't mean living rightly is bad, it just means we can't be justified by it.

Paul made the point in Romans 4:1-8 that Abraham and David were justified by faith, so if we've all fallen short, then everyone who has been justified has been justified by faith. This means that Moses and the Israelites were justified by faith before the law was given to them. In other words, the law was never given to them with the expectation that they could become justified by keeping it, but rather it was always meant to be obeyed by faith. God has always wanted a relationship with His people, which only comes through faith, not though legalistic obedience to His instructions. Obedience to God in an expression of our faith, but if we obey God without out of legalistic obedience without faith, then we pervert His law.

In Isaiah 1:11-17, the problem wasn't that they were following God's instructions be performing sacrifices, keeping the New Moon, the Sabbath, and offering prayers, but rather God's problem was with the perverted way in which they were keeping them. In essence, they honored God with their lips, but their hearts were far from Him. Jesus had that same critique of the Pharisees because they were following the law legalistically.

Grace is of no help to those who reject it in favor of the Law. If you are under the Law, you are under the Law, not grace, and the penalty for failure is the same now as it has always been, death.

God's Grace is not at all opposed to the law, but rather the law is an example of it (1 John 1:16-17). Being under the law refers to being under its penalty. Christ died to pay our penalty for breaking the law, and in doing so made us no longer under the law, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't still follow God's instructions for how to live rightly. Paul said in Romans 3:20 and Romans 7:7 that the law makes us conscious of sin and instructs us of what sin is, but in Romans 6:15, he said that being under grace doesn't mean that we are free to sin/transgress the law.

Justification is just the beginning of the Christian walk, the rest of lives are spent in the process of sanctification. Sanctification is where God's Spirit works within us to transform us into having the character of Christ. The character of Christ necessarily involves modeling our lives after how he thought and behaved, which means becoming obedient to the law. We can't keep the law though our own effort, but we can through the help of His Spirit.

Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

 

[bugkiller]

Not out of personal opinion, but because God blessed it and made it holy.

Bet ya it has to do your with salvation. If not its a mute issue and you're wasting everone's time.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

I'd actually agree with that, which is why I said obedience to the law was the natural outflowing of faith, not works of the law.

If its natural why was there ever an issue such as in Acts 15? And why were they accused of subverting souls?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

The law both instructs how to behave rightly and condemns for behaving sinfully. We have no reason to need to be delivered from holy, righteous, and good instructions, but we do have need of being delivered from being condemned.

Then John, Romans and Galatians are straight up foolishness.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

A yoke refers to a group or rabbi's interpretation for how to obey the law. By rejecting the law, you are rejecting Jesus' yoke, so you have rejected his invitation.

Nope because Jesus isn't teaching the law according to the Gospels. But you choose to throw them out.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Indeed, Jesus argued against normally kosher food being made ceremonially unclean by eating it with unwashed hands in Mark 7 and Matthew 15. Regardless of our opinions, there is nothing in itself in ceremonially unclean. If someone didn't know whether meat that was brought on the market had been sacrificed to idols, they might be of the opinion that it was ceremonially unclean, but Paul had been persuaded in the Lord Jesus to think otherwise.

Verse 14:6 shows that esteeming one day as better than another was in the context of fasting, which was a common practice at the time. Inserting the Sabbath into Romans when it's never even mention comes only from anti-law bias. You just assume that Jews wouldn't be talking about any other day, but you don't do any research into the context that shows that they were arguing about something else entirely.

Did they fast on the Sabbath? I think they did. You're limiting the passage to fit your desired needs.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

The laws regarding the levitical priesthood were given separately after the transgression of laws that God had first given His people. The Levitical priesthood was not renewed or intended to be permanent, as the book of Hebrews explains. However, God's instructions for how to live rightly remained the same. Jesus said that his yoke was easy and his burden was light, so clearly there is a yoke for the church, it's just not the yoke of the Pharisees.

Neither was the rest of the law. And no grace doesn't authorize sin.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

The grace is in regard to the penalty of the law, not it's instructions for how to live rightly.

Who said it was? The Christian no longer need the supervision of the law if I read Galatians correctly.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Slow Monday, eh?

Except the law is not a set of instructions on how to live rightly. It is a set of demands that must be met perfectly, or else. Grace is of no help to those who reject it in favor of the Law. If you are under the Law, you are under the Law, not grace, and the penalty for failure is the same now as it has always been, death.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Indeed, God didn't just pick random set of instructions to give to His people because He wanted to watch them jump through hoops. Rather, God gave them the law to guide His people in how to act rightly.

Deuteronomy 6:25 And it will be righteousness for us, if we are careful to do all this commandment before the Lord our God, as he has commanded us.’

Moses could have equivalently said, "We will live rightly if were are careful to obey God's instructions." The issue is that God is holy and His standard of righteousness is perfection, so the only way God will declare us right by us living rightly though our own effort is if we do so perfectly. However, we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, but that doesn't mean living rightly is bad, it just means we can't be justified by it.

Paul made the point in Romans 4:1-8 that Abraham and David were justified by faith, so if we've all fallen short, then everyone who has been justified has been justified by faith. This means that Moses and the Israelites were justified by faith before the law was given to them. In other words, the law was never given to them with the expectation that they could become justified by keeping it, but rather it was always meant to be obeyed by faith. God has always wanted a relationship with His people, which only comes through faith, not though legalistic obedience to His instructions. Obedience to God in an expression of our faith, but if we obey God without out of legalistic obedience without faith, then we pervert His law.

In Isaiah 1:11-17, the problem wasn't that they were following God's instructions be performing sacrifices, keeping the New Moon, the Sabbath, and offering prayers, but rather God's problem was with the perverted way in which they were keeping them. In essence, they honored God with their lips, but their hearts were far from Him. Jesus had that same critique of the Pharisees because they were following the law legalistically.



God's Grace is not at all opposed to the law, but rather the law is an example of it (1 John 1:16-17). Being under the law refers to being under its penalty. Christ died to pay our penalty for breaking the law, and in doing so made us no longer under the law, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't still follow God's instructions for how to live rightly. Paul said in Romans 3:20 and Romans 7:7 that the law makes us conscious of sin and instructs us of what sin is, but in Romans 6:15, he said that being under grace doesn't mean that we are free to sin/transgress the law.

Justification is just the beginning of the Christian walk, the rest of lives are spent in the process of sanctification. Sanctification is where God's Spirit works within us to transform us into having the character of Christ. The character of Christ necessarily involves modeling our lives after how he thought and behaved, which means becoming obedient to the law. We can't keep the law though our own effort, but we can through the help of His Spirit.

Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

Granted grace is an exception to something.

bugkiller

 

[Soyeong]

Bet ya it has to do your with salvation. If not its a mute issue and you're wasting everone's time.

bugkiller

Nope, keeping the Sabbath is about how you should act after you are saved.

 

[Soyeong]

If its natural why was there ever an issue such as in Acts 15? And why were they accused of subverting souls?

bugkiller

The issue in Acts 15 was whether Gentiles had to become Jews and whether they needed to keep all of the written and oral law to be saved. It was not about whether Gentiles should keep the law, that was a given. They'd learn more about how to keep the law by hearing Moses proclaimed every Sabbath (Acts 15:21). If you think about it for a minute, wouldn't it be strange to join a new religion and then be completely unconcerned about following God's instructions? It'd be like someone joining Islam and not being interested in learning about what they were supposed to do.