Struggling with our church....

[Barney]

Your pastor is telling people to give to a new building because they don't want to miss out on a miracle? Sounds like total manipulation to me.

Sounds like a Pentecostal pastor.

 

[Barney]

I love our home churches group, because now none of our money goes for salaries and such, I can give that extra money to those in need in our group, or in my neighborhood. We all share in teaching, and we take turns leading the discussions, so everyone matures as a capable disciple and disciple maker.

I would say big churches should and could have a purely evangelical service once in a while, where it is a Gospel message for inviting unbelievers to hear, but in a different room, or on another night, that is the way it was a should be (like what used to be a tent meeting). Sunday morning should be for the believers of the body to get together and enjoy one-anothers company, fellowship and friendship, without a lecture, without pews. Worship, study and pray together by talking together, and to share a word or a study of scripture 'together'.

What you have is a bible study group, not a church.

 

[Oldmantook]

You're being absolutely ridiculous. I've already quoted Paul saying the Lord commands pastors to be paid. CASE CLOSED. Whether or not Paul accepted cash is irrelevant to the legitimacy of pastors being paid. If you imagine the payment in the NT was given voluntarily, what's different today?
Did you not carefully read the quoted references I cited? If you want more, I can easily provide you with more scholarly references. The germane question is whether "pastors" were regularly paid back then, as pastors are salaried today. Pastors today receive a regular monthly salary. Back in the NT, pastors did not receive a monthly salary but sometimes received monetary gifts of appreciation in honor of their work with the flock.

Point to a church that objects to paying a pastor and I'll show you a church with incompetent leadership and a congregation of nitwits. You don't get quality without paying for it. And, who but a nitwit would want a talented and educated pastor wasting his talent and education serving tables at a restaurant to support himself while he pastors for free with whatever time he has leftover? And, who but a nitwit would think someone who spends his time serving tables isn't squandering opportunity for pastoral experience and thus is compromising his quality as a pastor?

Your utilization of ad hominem arguments only serves to weaken your claims. In the NT, elders were not selected on the basis of their "talent and education." Just show me one verse in the entire NT where that is the case. I'll await your answer. Instead the qualification of an elder was his character and wisdom (Titus 1:5-9).

 

[Oldmantook]

You're being absolutely ridiculous. I've already quoted Paul saying the Lord commands pastors to be paid. CASE CLOSED. Whether or not Paul accepted cash is irrelevant to the legitimacy of pastors being paid. If you imagine the payment in the NT was given voluntarily, what's different today?

Did you not carefully read the scholarly references I cited? I can easily provide you with more if needed. The germane point is elders/pastors back in the NT were not paid regular salaries as are pastors today who receive regular monthly salaries. Instead in the NT the elders occasionally received monetary gifts of appreciation for their work with the flock. There is a huge difference between being paid a regular salary and receiving occasional gifts. Therefore there is no NT precedent for a salaried pastor today.

 

[Barney]

Did you not carefully read the scholarly references I cited? I can easily provide you with more if needed. The germane point is elders/pastors back in the NT were not paid regular salaries as are pastors today who receive regular monthly salaries. Instead in the NT the elders occasionally received monetary gifts of appreciation for their work with the flock. There is a huge difference between being paid a regular salary and receiving occasional gifts. Therefore there is no NT precedent for a salaried pastor today.

PAUL SAID, "In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel."

What is it with people who refuse to accept what is explicit, simple, and reasonable? Making a living means a regular salary. And, I don't know why you keep speaking of monetary gifts as if you don't know churches pay pastor salaries out of monetary gifts? Maybe you think a salary is just too organized, and you think churches should operate in a disorderly fashion? I don't know what's going on in your head.

You know nothing about how NT [preaching] elders were paid (and, you'll never learn in your home church, an echo chamber of error). Even if you did know how, It's only your assumption that it was for doctrinal reasons rather than practical reasons. It's no different than if you are using electric bulbs instead of oil lamps as in the Bible, when electric bulbs is not how made light in the Bible. Can you cite any doctrine or principle in the Bible that contradicts paying pastors a salary? If you refer to Paul not taking pay, you've failed.

 

[Oldmantook]

PAUL SAID, "In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel."

What is it with people who refuse to accept what is explicit, simple, and reasonable? Making a living means a regular salary. And, I don't know why you keep speaking of monetary gifts as if you don't know churches pay pastor salaries out of monetary gifts? Maybe you think a salary is just too organized, and you think churches should operate in a disorderly fashion? I don't know what's going on in your head.

You know nothing about how NT [preaching] elders were paid (and, you'll never learn in your home church, an echo chamber of error). Even if you did know how, It's only your assumption that it was for doctrinal reasons rather than practical reasons. It's no different than if you are using electric bulbs instead of oil lamps as in the Bible, when electric bulbs is not how made light in the Bible. Can you cite any doctrine or principle in the Bible that contradicts paying pastors a salary? If you refer to Paul not taking pay, you've failed.

I've already given you scriptural evidence as well as scholarly backing which you've chosen not to address. Since you've chosen to ignore it in order to hold on to your view, that is certainly your prerogative.

 

[Deadworm]

Your perception of your pastor's stress on quantity rather than quality seems to mask your feeling that you are not being adequately (quality) fed in your church. To determine whether that is the real issue try this experiment: attend the other viable churches in your area, but first ask God to reveal to you whether one of them is the church where God wants you to be. The right church for you may not be a church with the most comprehensibly compatible doctrine, the best worship team, or the best preaching; it may rather be the place where God has a niche of service picked out for you, which is ideally designed for you to identify and live out your spiritual gift mix. Perhaps you can only hear God's voice in this matter through such experimentation.

 

[Barney]

@ Barney. Do you believe that they employed pastors who had church buildings in the NT?

Since you ask what I believe.... I believe it's stupid to insist on following practices designed for one set of circucucmances (home churches in the Bible when Christianity was illegal) in places where the circumstances are different (where Christianity is legal) I believe it's stupid to ignore the Christian use of large facilities in the Bible, such as the temple and the upperooom. I believe it's stupid to insist on a non-paid pastor who's as ignorant as the next guy. I believe it's stupid to make doctrine (e.g. home churches) out of things in the Bible that aren't taught as doctrine nor that naturally follow biblical principles

Carl B. Hoch, Jr., professor of New Testament at Grand Rapids Baptist Seminary, states:
In New Testament days, leaders were normally not paid. That is, money was given more as a gift than as an income or a salary. Leaders like Paul could receive money, but Paul chose not to receive any from the Corinthians (1 Corinthians 9:8-12).

Why don't you invite Mr. Carl B. Hocch Jr. here to share his views? Paul could self-finance without working a side job, most pastors can't do that. And, Paul would tell you that the Lord commands you pay living wages to a pastor (I've already quoted the verse).

 

[All4Christ]

AMBASSADOR HAT



Remember that this is a No Debate forum. Please address your posts to the OP and do not debate your fellow posters.

 

[ToBeLoved]

@ Barney. Do you believe that they employed pastors who had church buildings in the NT? If so, chapter and verse please. Instead you find that the believers met from house to house; overseen by a group of elders who were all able to teach (not just the Sr. Pastor) who were all qualified by virtue of their experience, character and integrity. The elders earned the trust and respect from the people not by virtue of their diploma/degree but by their ability to know, teach and live out the Word of God as examples to the flock . Your view of the church today from which you draw your perception is at odds with the church described in the pages of he NT.
Carl B. Hoch, Jr., professor of New Testament at Grand Rapids Baptist Seminary, states:
In New Testament days, leaders were normally not paid. That is, money was given more as a gift than as an income or a salary. Leaders like Paul could receive money, but Paul chose not to receive any from the Corinthians (1 Corinthians 9:8-12). He wanted to serve without depending on any church for financial support. Churches had a responsibility to "reward the ox" (1 Timothy 5:17) and to share with those who taught (Galatians 6:6). But money was never to be the driving force of ministry (1 Peter 5:2). Unfortunately, churches today will not call a man until they feel they can support him, and some men will not seriously consider a call if the financial package is "inadequate" (All Things New [Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1995] p.240).

Watchman Nee, in his book, The Normal Christian Church Life (Anaheim, CA: Living Stream Ministry, 1980), likewise states:
It is not necessary that elders resign their ordinary professions and devote themselves exclusively to their duties in connection with the church. They are simply local men, following their usual pursuits and at the same time bearing special responsibilities in the church. Should local affairs increase, they may devote themselves entirely to spiritual work, but the characteristic of an elder is not that he is a "full-time Christian worker." It is merely that, as a local brother, he bears responsibility in the local church (pp.62-63).

I think this sounds like a new thread.

You guys should not be hijacking an advice thread for your discussion. This is a specific situation that she needs advice about.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

Those who are within are given the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven....To those who are without all things are done in parable.....

What you said was not a parable it was an assumtion that lead to an accusation. What I said was scorn towards it. From what it looks like: The bad seed is in your own heart as your judgment is colored by it.

 

[RaymondG]

What you said was not a parable it was an assumtion that lead to an accusation. What I said was scorn towards it. From what it looks like: The bad seed is in your own heart as your judgment is colored by it.

I see no bad seeds in you. Thank you for the conversation.

 

[Oldmantook]

I think this sounds like a new thread.

You guys should not be hijacking an advice thread for your discussion. This is a specific situation that she needs advice about.

Indeed; I got too involved and off-track. Sorry about that!

 

[zelosravioli]

Petunia, even though I live in a city with 300 churches, it is still practically impossible to find a congregation that doesn't operate in the typical institutional way you described (even the little church pastors all seem to have dreams of operating these mega churches). We have developed a community of believers outside the institution, and we started with a bible study. And now we meet to pray worship study and eat together every week. Continue to fellowship with the church, and join, or continue with your own bible study group friends, don't be afraid to share your views, diplomatically. I'm sure you will find plenty that see the manipulation also. And then someday, you will see fruit, have faith, believe, truth will prevail!

Me and my wife also commit some Sundays to just visiting and talking with the unchurched community on Sunday morning, you may see this is alot more fulfilling and fruitful than sitting in pews and in pens with sheep.

Most all in our group find time now to work with para church ministries: womens and mens shelters, homeless and high school outreaches etc. that is where the real church is happening.

 

[thesunisout]

This is not a personal sin by the pastor against her but a doctrinal sin of pastoral tyranny and manipulation for gain towards the body. This should be called out openly as the apostles did in regard to warning the body and coming to unity on the truth of doctrine and love principles taught from the gospel. Not personalizing and hiding it from the body for sake of breaking fellowship. 1Co_11:18 How do you know God put him over us when he is like Diotrophes in 3Jn_1:9?

The buildings these guys build are ridiculous, all the while the body pays them off in tithes to do the job each one of us should be doing. Tithes are not even Biblical under a new covenant command. These million dollar buildings and services deceive the people into thinking they have performed their Christian work just like the Pharisees and their temple laws. Where is a building ever mentioned in the commands of Jesus or His apostles? What's crazier is that most of these buildings are closed all week and only used on Sundays! People should not be connected by a building but by love. True worshippers worship the Father not at a place but in the Spirit and in truth.

The emphasis they maintain is on the external and not the Spiritualy internal, mutual love and care for one another in Christ. This is the business model of church sold to us today. It will keep running happily with or without you and exists for itself like a cold machine. The original church was not like that.

1 Corinthians 12:25-26 that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. (26) If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.

1 Timothy 5:8

Do not entertain an accusation against an elder, except on the testimony of two or three witnesses

I don't see two or three witnesses here. If the Pastor is sinning, she should go to the elders in her church, not noise it abroad here on the forums.

 

[christianforumsuser]

I've been feeling out of touch with our church for a couple of years now, at least. Lots of little things, really, and I know that's normal. We're all human, and we all have different beliefs and ways of going about things. In the 9+ years we've been attending this church, our Pastor has tried 3 times to raise money to build new. He's all about more, more, more people. He brags most Sundays about how many kids are in youth group, etc. Now, I know it's a good thing to have a church bursting with people, and to have a youth group that is thriving. But what is concerning me is that I feel like it's quantity over quality at this point. Youth group consists of games, games, games. Last week he put a video on Facebook of a new dinosaur costume-clad person running and jumping into the crowd, kids going wild, etc. Youth group has become just an extension of public school, and all the junk that comes with it.
The last time he tried raising money for a new church, he asked my husband to buy a worthless piece of land that the church owns & hasn't been able to sell. My husband agreed to buy it, even though there's nothing we could do with it but pay taxes on it every year. Well, that time the new church thing fell through, so we were off-the-hook, so to speak. Now, the money-raising efforts this time are off the charts. I've had different people stop me and ask what I think of his tactics to raise money. I'm getting the feeling that many people are uncomfortable with it, as am I. We haven't been to any of the planning meetings, and do not plan on going to the big dinner this weekend where we are supposed to make our financial commitment for the next 3 years. I've prayed about it, and I don't feel anything at all. I haven't received an answer about how much to give, so I don't feel comfortable going and writing down a number. I've told my husband that he is welcome to go and donate any amount that he feels God is leading him to, but I don't think he wants to go without me.
How should I pray about this?

Is it a problem with you seeing it and saying it...such as rather some man says you should conform under him in the world
Is it seen as a problem with His heart...as even if the man holds a Bible you see the Bible and he refuses to listen and repent...as he outranks you and is supposed to be a leader
Is it your fault...the flesh...some part of the body...is it spiritual...
Adam sinned. Man is supposed to repent and eat the Word, believing, not only imitating outwardly as a man under the Law...but the Law is for the knowledge of sin
What use is rebuking a man...for this sin or that sin...as it keeps seeping out and rotting like leprosy
Clearly there's a deeper problem with everyone there and should be away from what's unclean and see a true priest and prophet if any of you are infected
Of course I understand this doesn't make sense, but I'm saying something about the Bible, so I could say this to you and explain
Or nothing about a man is unclean to himself as he goes around spreading what he likes to hide