Struggling with our church....

[petunia72]

deleted

 

[Albion]

What you described for us seems to me to be something that would logically and rightly cause any member of the church to reconsider his or her affiliation. It's just not wise or edifying or right the way things are now and apparently have been for some time with your church. But you seem committed to staying. How come?

 

[RaymondG]

There was a seed of negativity that was planted in you long ago. This tree is now full grown and producing negative fruit. The fruit falls from the tree and you look at it as if it belongs to someone else. More fall and you look at it and it becomes a problem with the youth ministry. The second fruit taste like someone else begging for money. And yet the third taste like blind carnal ambition of a pastor.

Until you realize that this negative fruit is coming from your own tree.....you will continue to see negativity in others.

But I say the ax is now laid to the root of the tree. You need to forgive yourself and others. Clean your house and search for the seed of life. Once this seed grows, you will see only light, as you will be in the light.... You will see fruit on the ground that taste like love in someone else. A second fruit will taste like kindness in another. A third will taste like someone always trying to bless you.

You will then realize that those fruit, too, were coming from yourSelf as well......

 

[Halbhh]

Well, while you may be better in another church especially if you don't feel deep love connections in this one, still the most central thing you are wanting to do already is seeking the guidance from above through prayer, and you might ask your husband to pray on it too, such as "I feel we should pray about this over the next day or so" (but spend time praying alone as Christ instructed in Matthew chapter 6). Wonderfully, Christ gave us more than just one or only two things about how to pray well, so that our prayers are answered. He actually instructed us precisely the key things we must do in prayer so that our prayers are answered even, such as in Matthew chapter 6, verses 5-15, and crucially also in Mark chapter 11, verses 22-25. Notice we have to believe it will be given (such as believing some guidance will come in your case), and also we are to pray to the Father, in Jesus's name, and also that we are to forgive others (don't neglect this key prayer instruction), and also we know that we are to forgive from our hearts (completely). (Sometimes this necessary forgiving we must do is hard to do in some cases, and you can even if needed pray specifically (a separate prayer, first) for help to forgive someone you still haven't totally forgiven as needed. I had to do this prayer for help in my heart to totally forgive someone I had not gotten to 100% forgiveness yet about, at least a couple of times. Notice how easy it is to have total faith as you pray for help to forgive someone, because you know that you are praying for help to do exactly what we are commanded to do, so we know this prayer aligns to God's will perfectly, and this is a very good reason to believe completely with full belief you will be helped, as you pray.)

 

[dysert]

Assuming neither you nor your husband has heard from the Lord regarding "a number", may I suggest (assuming you're tithing already) that you commit to 10% instead of an absolute $ amount. You'll likely be able to keep that, and you won't feel guilty about putting down a number that is not of God.

I also echo Albion's question. What has kept you at this church for so long? And I'll add my own: Have you been presented with a solid plan regarding what will be done with the money collected?

 

[HereIStand]

That's a difficult dilemma. There are cases where it's not a bad idea for a church to assume some debt for a building program or upgrade. (The church that I attend now is one such church.) However, in other cases, a church is doing well to pay a full time pastor, minimal staff, and maintenance on its property. In those cases, it's unwise and unfair to ask too much of the members.

 

[Albion]

The trend of the replies confirms what I was thinking in the back of my mind. Much of this is not wrong or strange--trying to attract new members, having a building fund, appeals for contributions, and so on. Sometimes the people get irritated at all of that, no matter what denomination or congregation it might be.

HOWEVER, the rest of it is on the flim-flam, castle-building, pastor with personal ambitions side of church life that is not so wonderful. There is enough of that present in this situation for me to seek another congregation, but I suppose there are reasons for deciding to stick it out anyway. I was curious if there are such reasons in this case. Petunia?

 

[paul1149]

I would say that when preoccupation and emphasis on numbers becomes that strong, and when it is accompanied on the personal level by trying to sell you a worthless piece of land, the focus of the pastor is on self, not the wellbeing of the flock. If you had a real need develop, would he really be there for you? Or is it all about numbers and career? My first church did a similar thing when it was time to build, and as a result a church that was growing like crazy lost half its flock. Most of the pastors and elders lost their positions and left the church as well. So you could say it backfired royally.

When they started twisting scripture regarding giving, I began to close up and did not attend their "financial commitment" dinner. I'm glad I skipped it. Eventually I left.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I would find another charity to give to until I felt ok about what is/was going on. To feel pressured like that doesn't seem right and I would question the heart of the pastor who brags upon himself so much, not giving the glory to God and seemingly wanting to inflate numbers at the church by having any program to bring people in.

I wouldn't want to doubt the heart of the pastor myself.

I also wonder why the pastor would try to sell that piece of land to a congregant and not just hire a real estate professional and put it on the open market. Seems like their is a lot of pressure. Would not sit well with me.

 

[lastofall]

[for me anyway] God is no respecter of person's, and has no interest at all in numbers, popularity, or accomplishments: rather He is interested in the condition of the heart, whether we are penitent sinners, and not impenitent sinners; beside this, we or anyone that names the Name of Christ should already be past supposing that gain is godliness, because it is not according to scripture: and one final point, it is good for us (professing Christians including any Church leader) that we learn not to think above that which is written, otherwise we will only be continually exaggerating and over-estimating beyond God's Word.

 

[petunia72]

What you described for us seems to me to be something that would logically and rightly cause any member of the church to reconsider his or her affiliation. It's just not wise or edifying or right the way things are now and apparently have been for some time with your church. But you seem committed to staying. How come?

I am open to trying a new church, but my husband wants to stay. We also live in a very small town, with not many choices.

 

[petunia72]

There was a seed of negativity that was planted in you long ago. This tree is now full grown and producing negative fruit. The fruit falls from the tree and you look at it as if it belongs to someone else. More fall and you look at it and it becomes a problem with the youth ministry. The second fruit taste like someone else begging for money. And yet the third taste like blind carnal ambition of a pastor.

Until you realize that this negative fruit is coming from your own tree.....you will continue to see negativity in others.

But I say the ax is now laid to the root of the tree. You need to forgive yourself and others. Clean your house and search for the seed of life. Once this seed grows, you will see only light, as you will be in the light.... You will see fruit on the ground that taste like love in someone else. A second fruit will taste like kindness in another. A third will taste like someone always trying to bless you.

You will then realize that those fruit, too, were coming from yourSelf as well......

Hmm....maybe so. I'm open to constructive criticism.

 

[petunia72]

Well, while you may be better in another church especially if you don't feel deep love connections in this one, still the most central thing you are wanting to do already is seeking the guidance from above through prayer, and you might ask your husband to pray on it too, such as "I feel we should pray about this over the next day or so" (but spend time praying alone as Christ instructed in Matthew chapter 6). Wonderfully, Christ gave us more than just one or only two things about how to pray well, so that our prayers are answered. He actually instructed us precisely the key things we must do in prayer so that our prayers are answered even, such as in Matthew chapter 6, verses 5-15, and crucially also in Mark chapter 11, verses 22-25. Notice we have to believe it will be given (such as believing some guidance will come in your case), and also we are to pray to the Father, in Jesus's name, and also that we are to forgive others (don't neglect this key prayer instruction), and also we know that we are to forgive from our hearts (completely). (Sometimes this necessary forgiving we must do is hard to do in some cases, and you can even if needed pray specifically (a separate prayer, first) for help to forgive someone you still haven't totally forgiven as needed. I had to do this prayer for help in my heart to totally forgive someone I had not gotten to 100% forgiveness yet about, at least a couple of times. Notice how easy it is to have total faith as you pray for help to forgive someone, because you know that you are praying for help to do exactly what we are commanded to do, so we know this prayer aligns to God's will perfectly, and this is a very good reason to believe completely with full belief you will be helped, as you pray.)

Thank you! I do need to forgive someone, and it is hard. I guess I hadn't really connected that with my prayer life....which, now that I say it, sounds ridiculous. Thank you for the scripture, as well.

 

[petunia72]

Assuming neither you nor your husband has heard from the Lord regarding "a number", may I suggest (assuming you're tithing already) that you commit to 10% instead of an absolute $ amount. You'll likely be able to keep that, and you won't feel guilty about putting down a number that is not of God.

I also echo Albion's question. What has kept you at this church for so long? And I'll add my own: Have you been presented with a solid plan regarding what will be done with the money collected?

There has been a plan drawn up for a new building, but that's all I know.

 

[petunia72]

The trend of the replies confirms what I was thinking in the back of my mind. Much of this is not wrong or strange--trying to attract new members, having a building fund, appeals for contributions, and so on. Sometimes the people get irritated at all of that, no matter what denomination or congregation it might be.

HOWEVER, the rest of it is on the flim-flam, castle-building, pastor with personal ambitions side of church life that is not so wonderful. There is enough of that present in this situation for me to seek another congregation, but I suppose there are reasons for deciding to stick it out anyway. I was curious if there are such reasons in this case. Petunia?

The reasons for sticking it out with this church is basically because my husband wants to, and because we live in a small community with not many choices.

 

[petunia72]

I would find another charity to give to until I felt ok about what is/was going on. To feel pressured like that doesn't seem right and I would question the heart of the pastor who brags upon himself so much, not giving the glory to God and seemingly wanting to inflate numbers at the church by having any program to bring people in.

I wouldn't want to doubt the heart of the pastor myself.

I also wonder why the pastor would try to sell that piece of land to a congregant and not just hire a real estate professional and put it on the open market. Seems like their is a lot of pressure. Would not sit well with me.

He had tried selling it, but couldn't. He was desperate, just as he is now, to have a new church. So he asked my husband to buy it. At the time, I was bothered because it isn't something that my husband and I heard from God about, but rather were pressured by our pastor.

 

[Albion]

I am open to trying a new church, but my husband wants to stay. We also live in a very small town, with not many choices.

Thanks, petunia. Yes, I had a hunch that your answer would be one or both of those. While I appreciate those considerations, this situation is not likely to get better and, as a result, the church will not be, for you, the kind of place where you can focus on God without serious distractions.

Perhaps some other way of minimizing your involvement in the affairs of the congregation or of finding some other way of being religiously active in the service of Christ and community short of leaving this church outright can be found.

 

[Dave G.]

He had tried selling it, but couldn't. He was desperate, just as he is now, to have a new church. So he asked my husband to buy it. At the time, I was bothered because it isn't something that my husband and I heard from God about, but rather were pressured by our pastor.

One question I have not seen answered is does God want the new church, never mind the pastor ? The church is not the pastor's, he is just the keeper of God's church and he should be following the will of God as the Holy Spirit speaks to him. If the church is the pastor's then the problem is already worse than anyone present realizes.

I can't really speak about no choices locally so being stuck. Because we have many choices locally but travel 80 miles one way to attend services twice a month where the Holy Spirit is present .

 

[ToBeLoved]

One question I have not seen answered is does God want the new church, never mind the pastor ? The church is not the pastor's, he is just the keeper of God's church and he should be following the will of God as the Holy Spirit speaks to him. If the church is the pastor's then the problem is already worse than anyone present realizes.

I can't really speak about no choices locally so being stuck. Because we have many choices locally but travel 80 miles one way to attend services twice a month where the Holy Spirit is present .

I was also wondering this.

I also was wondering if the church has an accountability procedure in place that accounts for expenditures and income/offerings?

If not, then that would also give me pause.

 

[com7fy8]

Pray so you are ready to do well with a real church, and ready to do what is right with your husband; at least, you be ready. And be a good example, wherever you are.