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Featured Struggling with our church....

Discussion in 'Christian Advice' started by petunia72, Oct 26, 2017.

  1. thesunisout

    thesunisout growing in grace Supporter

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    If what your Pastor is doing is a sin, then go to elders and talk to them about it. If it isn't a sin and it just bothers you, then forgive him and pray for him and yourself. Satan is always pointing things out in the church which are wrong to get us to break fellowship.

    We need to honor our elders that God puts over us. You haven't said anything positive about your Pastor here. If it is sin it should be a private matter between you and your church and the Lord, and if it isn't sin then you need to submit all of it to the Lord and look for His leading and guidance.
     
  2. Anguspure

    Anguspure Kaitiaki Peacemakers NZ Supporter

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    All living in 3 bedroom homes with nowhere for a dozen or so people to hang out I guess.
     
  3. petunia72

    petunia72 New Member

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    I'm so torn this morning. After attending church yesterday and hearing how much they've already raised in our small town church, I feel like the problem must lie in me. I'm still just blown away by the pressure that is being applied to everyone in the church, but apparently it's working for them. They've successfully raised almost half of the cost of the new church. Well, not in actual cash right now, but in the commitments that were given at the dinner last week. This coming Sunday, it has been made very clear, is not to be missed (we have to miss due to a prior commitment, however). It has been announced, in church and on Facebook, that this Sunday will be the biggest offering ever given. I don't know why I'm so uncomfortable....maybe because it's about money, and it seems so forced. My husband is going to give, and that is fine. He doesn't want to miss being a part of this miracle, as our pastor pointed out. I clearly need to go read my bible and pray. Thank you all for your help on this.
     
  4. 2Timothy2:15

    2Timothy2:15 Well-Known Member

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    I would like to see any scriptural support that those who followed Jesus were like "staff". No one got a salary and matter of fact Jesus sent away large numbers of people who sought to get material things / carnal things and what they could physically get from Jesus in the gospels.

    John 6

    King James Bible
    Matthew 14:13-21; Mark 6:30-44; Luke 9:10-17)

    1After these things Jesus went over the sea of Galilee, which is the sea of Tiberias. 2And a great multitude followed him, because they saw his miracles which he did on them that were diseased. 3And Jesus went up into a mountain, and there he sat with his disciples. 4And the passover, a feast of the Jews, was nigh. 5When Jesus then lifted up his eyes, and saw a great company come unto him, he saith unto Philip, Whence shall we buy bread, that these may eat? 6And this he said to prove him: for he himself knew what he would do. 7Philip answered him, Two hundred pennyworth of bread is not sufficient for them, that every one of them may take a little. 8One of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, saith unto him, 9There is a lad here, which hath five barley loaves, and two small fishes: but what are they among so many? 10And Jesus said, Make the men sit down. Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand. 11And Jesus took the loaves; and when he had given thanks, he distributed to the disciples, and the disciples to them that were set down; and likewise of the fishes as much as they would. 12When they were filled, he said unto his disciples, Gather up the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost. 13Therefore they gathered them together, and filled twelve baskets with the fragments of the five barley loaves, which remained over and above unto them that had eaten. 14Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.

    15When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

    Matthew 14:22-33; Mark 6:45-52)

    16And when even was now come, his disciples went down unto the sea, 17And entered into a ship, and went over the sea toward Capernaum. And it was now dark, and Jesus was not come to them. 18And the sea arose by reason of a great wind that blew. 19So when they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they see Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: and they were afraid. 20But he saith unto them, It is I; be not afraid. 21Then they willingly received him into the ship: and immediately the ship was at the land whither they went.

    22The day following, when the people which stood on the other side of the sea saw that there was none other boat there, save that one whereinto his disciples were entered, and that Jesus went not with his disciples into the boat, but that his disciples were gone away alone; 23(Howbeit there came other boats from Tiberias nigh unto the place where they did eat bread, after that the Lord had given thanks:) 24When the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither his disciples, they also took shipping, and came to Capernaum, seeking for Jesus. 25And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?

    Jesus the Bread of Life

    26Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. 27Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. 2

    60Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? 61When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? 62What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. 64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
     
  5. 2Timothy2:15

    2Timothy2:15 Well-Known Member

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    Your pastor is telling people to give to a new building because they don't want to miss out on a miracle? Sounds like total manipulation to me. As if the Lord can not save people without your pastors new building. Don't you see the pride and arrogance in that?
     
  6. 2Timothy2:15

    2Timothy2:15 Well-Known Member

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    You should read on, 1 Corinthians 15 But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.

    What is Paul saying, he is saying the opposite! He is saying he has not done that nor has he written to any disciple they should do it. He is saying in fact they should not. Ironically you are doing exactly what you accuse others of, plucking scripture out of context and not doing proper exegesis.

    The word you are hanging your hat on in verse 14 does not mean, "salary". The word to "live" means.

    ζάω
    Transliteration
    zaō
    Pronunciation
    zä'-ō (Key)
    [​IMG]
    Part of Speech
    verb
    Root Word (Etymology)
    A primary verb
    Dictionary Aids
    Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry

    TDNT Reference: 2:832,290

    KJV Translation Count — Total: 143x
    The KJV translates Strong's G2198 in the following manner: live (117x), be alive (9x), alive (6x), quick (4x), lively (3x), not translated (1x), miscellaneous (2x), vr live (1x).
    Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
    1. to live, breathe, be among the living (not lifeless, not dead)

    2. to enjoy real life
      1. to have true life and worthy of the name

      2. active, blessed, endless in the kingdom of God
    3. to live i.e. pass life, in the manner of the living and acting
      1. of mortals or character
    4. living water, having vital power in itself and exerting the same upon the soul

    5. metaph. to be in full vigour
      1. to be fresh, strong, efficient,

      2. as adj. active, powerful, efficacious
    To further support the fact the word in verse 14 does not mean salary. Here are other verses that use the same word. Clearly the context in all other verses have NOTHING to do with salary or money.

    ζάω, ζῶ, ζῇς, ζῇ, infinitive ζῆν (so L T, but R G WH (η(, Tr also (except 1 Corinthians 9:14; 2 Corinthians 1:8); cf. Winers Grammar, § 5, 4 c.; WH. Introductory § 410; Lipsius Gram. Unters., p. 5f), participle ζῶν; imperfect ἔζων (Romans 7:9, where Vat. has the inferior form ἔζην (found again Colossians 3:7 ἐζῆτε); cf. Fritzsche on Romans, ii., p. 38; (WHs Appendix, p. 169; Veitch, under the word)); future in the earlier form ζήσω (Romans 6:2 (not L marginal reading); Hebrews 12:9; L T Tr WH also in John (John 5:25); John 6:57,58 (John 6:51 T WH), (not L; John 14:19 T Tr WH); 2 Corinthians 13:4; James 4:15), and much oftener ((?) five times, quotations excepted, viz. Matthew 9:18; Luke 10:28; John 11:2
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2017
  7. cfdude

    cfdude Newbie

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    This is not a personal sin by the pastor against her but a doctrinal sin of pastoral tyranny and manipulation for gain towards the body. This should be called out openly as the apostles did in regard to warning the body and coming to unity on the truth of doctrine and love principles taught from the gospel. Not personalizing and hiding it from the body for sake of breaking fellowship. 1Co_11:18 How do you know God put him over us when he is like Diotrophes in 3Jn_1:9?

    The buildings these guys build are ridiculous, all the while the body pays them off in tithes to do the job each one of us should be doing. Tithes are not even Biblical under a new covenant command. These million dollar buildings and services deceive the people into thinking they have performed their Christian work just like the Pharisees and their temple laws. Where is a building ever mentioned in the commands of Jesus or His apostles? What's crazier is that most of these buildings are closed all week and only used on Sundays! People should not be connected by a building but by love. True worshippers worship the Father not at a place but in the Spirit and in truth.

    The emphasis they maintain is on the external and not the Spiritualy internal, mutual love and care for one another in Christ. This is the business model of church sold to us today. It will keep running happily with or without you and exists for itself like a cold machine. The original church was not like that.

    1 Corinthians 12:25-26 that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. (26) If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2017
  8. petunia72

    petunia72 New Member

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    I do see pride and arrogance, but I feel alone in that opinion. It's seriously like nothing I've ever seen before. At one point, he asked for people to dig out $20 bills, to show how God multiplies. And then had men walk around and gather up this big wad of $20's. I felt disgusted by it.
     
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  9. 2Timothy2:15

    2Timothy2:15 Well-Known Member

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    Standing alone or feeling alone in these things is very difficult but the Lord will give you strength and honor you for doing what is righteous in his eyes. Many in the bible felt alone when they were surrounded by false teachers and brethren. Pray the Lord opens your husbands eyes to truth. This pastor of yours is interested in one thing, money.
     
  10. cfdude

    cfdude Newbie

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  11. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    I've been on both sides of the fence as a FT children's pastor and a lay person. My experience has been that people normally believe whatever their pastor tells them. That can be good or bad depending on the pastor's character and/or motivation. A pastor has spiritual authority not because of his position as it is only a title. He has authority because of his character and integrity. Even if one begins to question, the pressure of group conformity causes self-doubt which you are well aware of. Don't disregard your spiritual antenna. Based on what you wrote does the pastor subscribe to a "prosperity gospel" message? And if so, is that message biblical in your opinion? Also ask yourself this. Do you see scriptural evidence in the NT where believers are encouraged to meet one's own need (church building) as opposed to giving to meet the needs of other brethren elsewhere? When I read my NT, I only see the brethren taking up offerings to meet the needs of needy brethren living in other places. Of course we should help the needy within our own congregations but most of the incoming monies goes to pay for staff salaries and the church bills. Is that the NT model? That is why I quit my job in the clergy as I could not justify being paid a regular monthly salary when I could not scripturally justify it.
     
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  12. 2Timothy2:15

    2Timothy2:15 Well-Known Member

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    Astounding really
     
  13. zelosravioli

    zelosravioli Believer Supporter

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    Barney, don't you see that 'preaching' was done 'outside' the church:
    "... that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel"
    The Gospel is the good news, note that it is 'news' to the unknowing. Disciples are not the unknowing, they are believers in what is 'known'. In other words it seems the traveling 'evangelists' received gifts and lodging while they traveled and preached the gospel 'news' but the 'church' twists this to try and validate salaries for people who stand and lord over churches on Sundays and such:
    “You know that those regarded as rulers of theGentiles exercise lordship over them, and their superiors exercise authority over them. 43 But it shall not be this way among you" (Mark 10:42)

    Preaching the Gospel and teaching disciples are two different words, as well as being two 'different' things. Church members aren't being educated because preaching does not help people to learn to communicate, practice, or participate in the thinking process of learning. If something known is to be 'studied' it is better taught through 'discussion' (colleges long ago recognized this, as lectures are most often replaced with active learning, labs, peer to peer instruction, all while the church is stuck in the past). So the popular and false notion that 'standing in front of a congregation and preaching at them' is the way to disciple and teach, is highly misconstrued. Secondly, it was never meant to be 'one teacher' or leader, we should 'all' be sharing and 'participating' in the learning, leading and growing process. The call to make disciples, was a call to love, study, pray, relate, and commune 'with one another': none of that happens during a sermon'! But 'all' these things happen when you sit together and talk in small groups!

    I don't even care if 'true' ministers are paid, as well as anyone else in ministry! In fact pay everyone, I don't care! But 'because' of the paychecks those in ministry think they have to control the church 'and' keep, increase and membership 'because' their paychecks are sustained by the offering/salaries. There is really no evidence contrary to the fact that as soon as someones livelihood is attached to money, it influences their behavior and policies. It would be nice if it didn't, but if you think this will change sometime soon, and it hasn't since money first was traded, then you are not ready for a logical discussion.

    Barney it is the Catholics/priests/presbytery/clergy/pastors/seminaries who have "tortuously stretched verses to reach conclusions from verses.." in order to justify their own lordship and 'anointing'. And, to further verify 'themselves' they almost always will go back to the unbiblical and spurious doctored letters of Ignatius and Clement, who's letters were doctored or written 'purposefully' to turn bishops into Lords, even instead of God and Christ (and this is the very foundation of the Catholic hierarchy).
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2017
  14. faroukfarouk

    faroukfarouk Fading curmudgeon

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    Sounds good to me. I don't in any case believe in forcing Old Testament tithes onto New Testament churches (even though freewill offerings might sometimes even amount to more than a tenth of someone's income).
     
  15. Barney

    Barney Member

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    The NT teaches churches to take offering to pay the preacher for their work. The NT teaches churches to support the helpful but truly needy of their own congregation. The only place where I see the Bible suggesting we should support anyone living in other places is Paul's plea to help for the heavily persecuted Christians in Jerusalem.
     
  16. zelosravioli

    zelosravioli Believer Supporter

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    I love our home churches group, because now none of our money goes for salaries and such, I can give that extra money to those in need in our group, or in my neighborhood. We all share in teaching, and we take turns leading the discussions, so everyone matures as a capable disciple and disciple maker.

    I would say big churches should and could have a purely evangelical service once in a while, where it is a Gospel message for inviting unbelievers to hear, but in a different room, or on another night, that is the way it was a should be (like what used to be a tent meeting). Sunday morning should be for the believers of the body to get together and enjoy one-anothers company, fellowship and friendship, without a lecture, without pews. Worship, study and pray together by talking together, and to share a word or a study of scripture 'together'.
     
  17. RaymondG

    RaymondG Well-Known Member

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    Those who are within are given the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven....To those who are without all things are done in parable.....
     
  18. RaymondG

    RaymondG Well-Known Member

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    My words apply to life and all situations. Why give medicine for a symptom when you can cure the dis-ease?
     
  19. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    @ Barney. Do you believe that they employed pastors who had church buildings in the NT? If so, chapter and verse please. Instead you find that the believers met from house to house; overseen by a group of elders who were all able to teach (not just the Sr. Pastor) who were all qualified by virtue of their experience, character and integrity. The elders earned the trust and respect from the people not by virtue of their diploma/degree but by their ability to know, teach and live out the Word of God as examples to the flock . Your view of the church today from which you draw your perception is at odds with the church described in the pages of he NT.
    Carl B. Hoch, Jr., professor of New Testament at Grand Rapids Baptist Seminary, states:
    In New Testament days, leaders were normally not paid. That is, money was given more as a gift than as an income or a salary. Leaders like Paul could receive money, but Paul chose not to receive any from the Corinthians (1 Corinthians 9:8-12). He wanted to serve without depending on any church for financial support. Churches had a responsibility to "reward the ox" (1 Timothy 5:17) and to share with those who taught (Galatians 6:6). But money was never to be the driving force of ministry (1 Peter 5:2). Unfortunately, churches today will not call a man until they feel they can support him, and some men will not seriously consider a call if the financial package is "inadequate" (All Things New [Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1995] p.240).

    Watchman Nee, in his book, The Normal Christian Church Life (Anaheim, CA: Living Stream Ministry, 1980), likewise states:
    It is not necessary that elders resign their ordinary professions and devote themselves exclusively to their duties in connection with the church. They are simply local men, following their usual pursuits and at the same time bearing special responsibilities in the church. Should local affairs increase, they may devote themselves entirely to spiritual work, but the characteristic of an elder is not that he is a "full-time Christian worker." It is merely that, as a local brother, he bears responsibility in the local church (pp.62-63).
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2017
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  20. Barney

    Barney Member

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    You're being absolutely ridiculous. I've already quoted Paul saying the Lord commands pastors to be paid. CASE CLOSED. Whether or not Paul accepted cash is irrelevant to the legitimacy of pastors being paid. If you imagine the payment in the NT was given voluntarily, what's different today?

    Point to a church that objects to paying a pastor and I'll show you a church with incompetent leadership and a congregation of nitwits. You don't get quality without paying for it. And, who but a nitwit would want a talented and educated pastor wasting his talent and education serving tables at a restaurant to support himself while he pastors for free with whatever time he has leftover? And, who but a nitwit would think someone who spends his time serving tables isn't squandering opportunity for pastoral experience and thus is compromising his quality as a pastor?
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2017
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