Struggling to find faith

[Dorothy Mae]

So yes I approach Christianity through theology to some extent - however I have tried to let the Bible critique my understandings - and BTW I haven't found many christians who do that.

Here is one. I have adjusted my thinking on matters as a direct result of searching the scriptures to see if these be so and a fair number of times. But I agree that this is quite rare. It is as rare among theologians and laymen. It’s probably a matter of character.

 

[dms1972]

This is inevitably what happens when you suppress the truth of God. After a time of denying Him - which is what you do, essentially, each time you consider Him as a possibility but walk away - you have calloused yourself to the whole matter. Whatever inner prompting you've had you've denied and each time you do so, the prompting grows quieter. Eventually, you'll cease to care at all. The Bible calls this "hardening."

Does it not depend on what I am denying - whether that be the true God, or whether it be the God of the theology of the Church I grew up in, or whether it be my own idea of God?

 

[aiki]

This may be the case with me to some extent, but its also the case that I embraced philosophical and theological ideas in the past that are not held by every christian - Barthianism would be one. Now it depends who you read - some think Barth's theology the worst departure from Historic Christianity there has been (among those who think this would be Van Til and Schaeffer - and since Schaeffer was a student of Van Til I believe he came to his negative appraisal of Barth because of Van Til's influence). I see other examples of the same molding influences of one theologian on another - for instance that of John Gerstner on RC Sproul IMO. This is not to say that Van Til and Schaeffer held exactly the same theological positions on every point of theology - they didn't - but it seems to me they were pretty much of like mind when it came to Barth. So I am not sure how much Schaeffer came to his critical views about Barth for himself - did he not absorb the criticism of his teacher to some extent? Van Til's critique of Barth has been called "grotesque" by some.

This all reminds me of something Paul the apostle wrote to the Corinthian Christians:

1 Corinthians 3:4-7
4 For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not mere men?
5 What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one.
6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth.
7 So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth.

These rumination of yours here are interesting academically, but God isn't, I think, particularly interested in your fidelity to Barthian theology. He's inviting you to know Himself personally, directly, quite apart from Van Til, Schaeffer or Barth. Knowing and loving God is, after all, the point of the Christian life, not aligning with Apollos or Paul.

So yes I approach Christianity through theology to some extent

And the Author of the Christian faith? How do you approach Him?

 

[aiki]

Does it not depend on what I am denying - whether that be the true God, or whether it be the God of the theology of the Church I grew up in, or whether it be my own idea of God?

It seems pretty plain to me in God's word that God presents Himself to us as a directly-knowable Being. In all the years you've been munching on the academics of the faith, have you stopped to "taste and see that the Lord is good"? Have you applied to God for a personal experience of Himself? I'm not talking about they hokey, woo-woo stuff of the hyper-charismatic crowd but of the experience of God the Bible tells us we can have: Conviction of sin (John 16:8), illumination of God's truth (John 14:26; 1 Corinthians 2:10-16), strengthening in times of trial and temptation (Ephesians 3:16; Romans 8:13), transformation of our thoughts and desires (Galatians 5:22, 23; Philippians 2:13), and divine corrective discipline (Hebrews 12:5-11).

Whatever else you may have denied all these years that you've been dabbling at the edges of walking with God, you have clearly been denying this sort of an experience of Him. And the more you do, the more you set yourself in a habit of (at least, passive) denial of God. This leads inevitably to apathy toward Him and finally total blindness to the need even to bother thinking about Him. As I explained, the Bible calls this hardening, of which there are plenty of biblical examples: Pharoah, the wicked of Noah's day, Jezebel, etc.

 

[dms1972]

Sorry I am just not sure if I am really interested anymore - I guess 30 years ago some of what you are saying might have struck a chord - but I feel indifferent - my mum thinks that deep down I do believe - but there is such a gap, a disconnect that I don't know if I do.

 

[aiki]

Sorry I am just not sure if I am really interested anymore - I guess 30 years ago some of what you are saying might have struck a chord - but I feel indifferent - my mum thinks that deep down I do believe - but there is such a gap, a disconnect that I don't know if I do.

Well, as I've been saying, this is what denying God for decades produces: apathy. At this point, only God can lift you from the deep trench of your repeated choice to reject Him. Ask Him to. Keep asking 'til He does. Or not. It's up to you.

 

[Hawkins]

So maybe I have been through a false conversion, been through the motions, that leaves me trying to live some kind of christian life while inside I am unchanged - but its a bit complicated because I have been into so much philosophy. And now I feel trapped in unbelief and hypocrisy.

I stayed in some philosophy forums for an extended period of time, till I was banned from most popular forums. I do speculate what their problem is. Philosophy in today's world is a poison. It's like being trapped into a kind of dreams and can hardly be awaken. Spiritually speaking it's a world "conquered" by the devil.

Faith is not complicated. It is tied to the question that if God does exist, how would you know.

An analogy is, if aliens do exist how would you know? If aliens are far more advanced and they have a good reason to hide from humans, then the only remains for humans to get to know their existence if by means of those happened to have encountered them. The rest of human kind will have to rely on faith in their testimonies to approach the truth of the aliens' existence. There's no other way round. Truth is presented in those testimonies for you to believe or reject with faith. That's the only way such a truth can be approached by humans.

All left is has God explicitly encourage for His truth to be revealed this way? Has "faith in testimonies" been explicitly introduced by the Bible God when this remains the only way for humans to approach such a truth. In comparison, has the muslin God explicitly mentioned that faith from testimonies of eyewitnesses is needed? Witnesses, testimonies etc. are terms of the Bible, not the terms of the Qu'ran. Only the Bible has shed some light on this only way for humans to approach a truth.

Humans apply faith all the times on a daily basis. Humans rely on media (a gatherer of facts from eyewitnesses) to approach a truth with faith. Maybe to your surprise. This is the same process of faith in testimonies. Humans in majority don't verify daily news (not to mention that they are incapable of verifying histories recorded in history books). That's why Trump can make his "fake news" claim. Fake news is possible because news are faith based (again maybe to your surprise). That's why you only know that fake news are possible but you can never tell which piece of news is actually fake. Gospel (the good news) can be fake too, as it is with the same exact nature.

There are two more factor which may lead you to confusion. The Bible resembles more of a history book than the daily news. Daily news is about the recording of activities currently happening, such that you can still verify if you wish. History about recordings of activities happened historically long ago. You can hardly verify any of them (to your surprise again?), especially the parts related to individual activities. Human historical individual activities can hardly be verifiable. An example is, have you ever eaten any eggs before the age of two? Only your own mom can tell, that is, this kind of truth can only be conveyed by testimonies. Whether you ate eggs as a piece of truth can only be conveyed by your mom's testimony. That's what it is.

Other than philosophy, the much larger human establishment being "conquered" by the devil is our education system. They consider the so-called "evidence" being the only way for humans to approach a truth. "No evidence no truth" becomes the only approach humans can reach a truth. This however is a big lie which plagues modern humans including the smartest. It sounds as if whether you ate eggs before the age of two can be proved by evidence, while the reality is only your mom's testimony but not evidence can convey such a truth!

Plagued by modern education which has already been conquered by Satan remains the reason why people's faith drops.

The second factor is, what history conveys is testimonies on human activities occurred in the past. They are facts easily understandable to us as they are human activities. The Bible on the other hand is more on activities of God. Not only it is normal that the activities of God may not be fully understandable by humans, but also that the only way remains for both the truth of human activities and God's activities to convey is through testimonies from eyewitnesses. There's no other way round.

You don't doubt daily news from TV channels or news papers even in the situation that they can be fake news. You however doubt about a history book on God's activities mostly because the devil is not fighting on the field of daily news. The devil is fighting on the field of faith in God and Jesus. Subconsciously most will fall for the trap that "it is not believable because it's not evidenced". Well the irony is, even your daily news are never made evident to you either if you are willing to think deeper philosophically.

 

[dms1972]

To be honest - I just am not that enamoured anymore of what I find in the churches I have been to - this is partly due to my own explorations outside of christianity and because I don't feel I fit in when I go to church, nor enjoy the "getting to know you" of it all (which is so one sided!!!). I grew up within the life of the church, but in my twenties I began to wonder if what I was seeing was just conformity and if I was just conforming myself. Outside of Church, free-thinking and figuring it out for oneself is held up as a virtue - and over the years I have sort of oscilated between the Bible and my own thinking.

 

[dms1972]

An example is, have you ever eaten any eggs before the age of two?

Hardly an example of sort of thing historians are interested in!

 

[dms1972]

The only way it seems to me to have faith is to split myself in two (and I have tried that) - because it seems like we are conditioned to disbelieve in God and the supernatual, conditioned to be moderns, and that the way I am. The only way to have genuine faith would be to become de-conditioned - or I would just be a split personality - "believing" and yet not believing - but which is the real me?? I think one can have surface belief and yet deep down unbelief (ie modern/postmodern outlook).

 

[2PhiloVoid]

The only way it seems to me to have faith is to split myself in two (and I have tried that) - because it seems like we are conditioned to disbelieve in God and the supernatual, conditioned to be moderns, and that the way I am. The only way to have genuine faith would be to become de-conditioned - or I would just be a split personality - "believing" and yet not believing - but which is the real me?? I think one can have surface belief and yet deep down unbelief (ie modern/postmodern outlook).

But what is "genuine" faith in a Modern world?

 

[dms1972]

But what is "genuine" faith in a Modern world?

What I struggle with is modern mindset versus faith - faith to me is opposed to a modern or secular mindset. Yet I am surrounded by a mostly secular culture how do I relate christian faith and modernity because I am shaped to some extent by modernity and postmodernity?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

What I struggle with is modern mindset versus faith - faith to me is opposed to a modern or secular mindset. Yet I am surrounded by a mostly secular culture how do I relate christian faith and modernity because I am shaped to some extent by modernity and postmodernity?

That's an excellent question, and I think that where inherently existential terms and issues are concerned, it's always a tough one for everyone to chew on and attempt to offer a final answer. However, I would posit that that the problem here is less dichotomous and more nuanced in its nature than what can be come by by merely seeing it as "either/or."

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Does it not depend on what I am denying - whether that be the true God, or whether it be the God of the theology of the Church I grew up in, or whether it be my own idea of God?

That is quite correct and quite astute. Those who deny the god they made up in their heads are denying a false god.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

What I struggle with is modern mindset versus faith - faith to me is opposed to a modern or secular mindset. Yet I am surrounded by a mostly secular culture how do I relate christian faith and modernity because I am shaped to some extent by modernity and postmodernity?

You are likely very much shaped by modernity and postmodernity. This makes faith difficult as it is taught as something blind and subjective. No one is taught to believe there really is a truth that is out there independent of us knowing it or believing it. How do you relate? Well, in our day it might be something that is appealing to stand up for moral right. That is, where there is wrong, you be a voice to speak up. But it also might mean that a Christian exposes the lies that parade around as doing so. BLM is one such movement that so many think is good because it has good marketing. It is a markist movement with its aim to destroy society, including black lives and businesses and families. Christians have a history of doing this including fighting to end slavery through peaceful means, funding and building orphanages for children abandoned to no education or home, homes for the sick and elderly, the list goes on and on.

 

[dms1972]

You are likely very much shaped by modernity and postmodernity. This makes faith difficult as it is taught as something blind and subjective. No one is taught to believe there really is a truth that is out there independent of us knowing it or believing it. How do you relate? Well, in our day it might be something that is appealing to stand up for moral right. That is, where there is wrong, you be a voice to speak up. But it also might mean that a Christian exposes the lies that parade around as doing so. BLM is one such movement that so many think is good because it has good marketing. It is a markist movement with its aim to destroy society, including black lives and businesses and families. Christians have a history of doing this including fighting to end slavery through peaceful means, funding and building orphanages for children abandoned to no education or home, homes for the sick and elderly, the list goes on and on.

Thanks for your comments.

I seem to go through periods of believing and unbelieving but I am unable to tell at the moment what if anything I do believe or hold to - in the past I have been through phases of taking on some of the ideas of people like Hegel, Heidegger, Freud and other more christian ones like Barth - so I wonder at times how much I have passed out of these philosophies - or whether I have ever been a christian at all.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Thanks for your comments.

I seem to go through periods of believing and unbelieving but I am unable to tell at the moment what if anything I do believe or hold to - in the past I have been through phases of taking on some of the ideas of people like Hegel, Heidegger, Freud and other more christian ones like Barth - so I wonder at times how much I have passed out of these philosophies - or whether I have ever been a christian at all.

If you think as these men did, it’s doubtful. It’s forbidden to tell a person they’re aren’t a christian here (even though it might be the kindest thing to say so they know the truth) and I cannot know anyway, but you want want to proceed as if you aren’t and beg God to open your eyes to the truth, whatever He knows it to be.

 

[dms1972]

If you think as these men did, it’s doubtful. It’s forbidden to tell a person they’re aren’t a christian here (even though it might be the kindest thing to say so they know the truth) and I cannot know anyway, but you want want to proceed as if you aren’t and beg God to open your eyes to the truth, whatever He knows it to be.

I don't know how much I think as they did - I did a lot of thinking and praying many years ago - but I still find myself struggling and quite severely introspective - so something isn't right - I suppose I may be a bit syncretistic. The thing is I believe there is wisdom not just in the Bible. I do ditch books if they seem like mumbo jumbo - or are clearly going against christian teaching - years ago I heard of a much hyped book called: A Return to Love - I was quite keen to get it because I thought I would be the key for me - well after reading a bit the author kept talking about the God and the Goddess and then said something like we spend too much time "clinging to that old rugged cross" - I binned it at that point. I try to avoid things that are New Age or Occult however in the past I was more curious to know what they were about - but sometimes some topic comes up and I want to get the gist of what its about.

Others seem to fit very easy into faith traditions and churches - and that I really struggle with.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I don't know how much I think as they did - I did a lot of thinking and praying many years ago - but I still find myself struggling and quite severely introspective - so something isn't right - I suppose I may be a bit syncretistic. The thing is I believe there is wisdom not just in the Bible. I do ditch books if they seem like mumbo jumbo - or are clearly going against christian teaching - years ago I heard of a much hyped book called: A Return to Love - I was quite keen to get it because I thought I would be the key for me - well after reading a bit the author kept talking about the God and the Goddess and then said something like we spend too much time "clinging to that old rugged cross" - I binned it at that point. I try to avoid things that are New Age or Occult however in the past I was more curious to know what they were about - but sometimes some topic comes up and I want to get the gist of what its about.

Others seem to fit very easy into faith traditions and churches - and that I really struggle with.

Don’t worry about what others do or feel comfortable with. You’re not responsible for them, only your own thinking. That’s already enough I suspect.

The Bible was written by men who walked with God and knew Him. They understood Him by and large. This is why people find Him when reading their works. Sometimes it takes a lot of seeking.

 

[theoneinsidethezero]

Hi,

I am really struggling to find faith. I am not sure what the real root of the problem is. I have posted in this forum however there have been times in my life I thought I was a christian. I have been through many theologies and philosophies and not sure what I really believe. I have had an understanding of christian things to some extent from a young age - but not sure if I have ever really had faith. I have spoken to counsellors and one many years ago said my problem was hypocrisy - i didn't accept that at the time. Its hard for me to see what the problem is. I think I maybe substitute my theological understandings for faith.

Please pray for me.

Thanks

I have felt you pain. But take it from someone who searched high and low for truth for 21 years and faith is not the answer anyways! Knowing is. The Bible challenges us to "Make full proof of our ministry" and having faith or merely believing in something isn't going to cut it. Half of what is being professed as the truth in Christian circles today can not and will never be proving which is why when the truth does come out "Christians will be hated by all nations on account of Jesus". Notice revelation says "Blessed is he who dies in the name of the Lord from NOW ON" this implies those who dies in the name of the Lord prior to that where not blessed. It is more imperative than ever that we stop blinding follow each other off a cliff and figure out what is really going in the Bible.