Struggling to find faith

dms1972

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Why? For some, it is because they think they can find God in the facts about Him. Knowing about God, though, is not the same as knowing Him directly. Though I have read all the facts about the Queen of England, I cannot therefore claim to know her personally, can I? So, too, with God.

When I have sensed or apprehended God in the past or become convinced myself of his existence - I find myself then in a dilemma and have tried to get rid of the awareness of God - this has left me in a difficult place.

Not sure if I am explaining this right, but on one occasion the possibility of knowledge, or the capacity to know seems in itself point to God - I was aware of that years ago when I thought it through one time - but even so I found I was not wanting for God to be. So I retreated from that, in fact I found I could only escape the awareness of God if I gave up knowledge or the possibility of knowledge, and that was what I did.

The problem for me is not perhaps so much whether God exists - although whether I can know that now I am not sure given the steps I took to escape from awareness of God - but that I try to get rid of the knowledge - It seems to be always the case that when I become aware of God I find I am really not so ready to accept his existence, and then want to escape from the awareness. I don't know if you read J. Budzizewski and his account of his becoming a nihilist - and then back to christianity.


He uses an analogy of a computer with a motherboard and circuit board plugged into that, and he says he was pulling components out of his mind that had the image of God stamped on them. He says he had pulled nearly everything out and was almost at the point of no return, he had almost got to the motherboard. Well I have wondered have I gone past the point of no return - when I rejected the possibility of knowledge had I gone past that point?

Thoughts?
 
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aiki

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To be frank, I think all of this is just a deflection from dealing with God directly. No amount of philosophizing can eradicate the reality of God. He is and that doesn't change just because we manage to convince ourselves He's isn't. It seems you've created the habit of pursuing philosophical rabbit trails to avoid dealing with God. Why is doing so preferable to just facing God squarely and getting things sorted out between you and Him? Why such an effort to avoid the unavoidable?
 
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dms1972

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To be frank, I think all of this is just a deflection from dealing with God directly. No amount of philosophizing can eradicate the reality of God. He is and that doesn't change just because we manage to convince ourselves He's isn't. It seems you've created the habit of pursuing philosophical rabbit trails to avoid dealing with God. Why is doing so preferable to just facing God squarely and getting things sorted out between you and Him? Why such an effort to avoid the unavoidable?

What do you mean when you say God?

What are you saying is a deflection? I suppose I am avoiding God or avoiding dealing with God directly, but how do I overcome that? If people have an alergy (as some say) to God how can they deal with God?
 
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dms1972

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For the MIND that is set on the flesh is HOSTILE TO GOD

I am not sure about how you are interpreting this - where does it say the MIND is hostile to God? It says the mind SET ON THE FLESH is hostile - it is talking about MINDSETS surely - not the mind. At least that is how I have heard others explain it.
 
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aiki

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What do you mean when you say God?

I mean the Greatest Possible Being revealed to us in our conscience, in Creation, and in the Bible.

What are you saying is a deflection? I suppose I am avoiding God or avoiding dealing with God directly, but how do I overcome that? If

By ceasing to treat Him as a mere idea but, instead, as the Person He is. God is knowable. He will interact with you directly and personally. Ask Him to. And keep asking 'til He does.

Often, though, we don't draw near to God until we have nowhere else to turn. Humans are stupid and stubborn this way. Maybe you'll have to get to rock-bottom before you'll finally look up.

If people have an alergy (as some say) to God how can they deal with God?

There's only one way: in humility and faith. But human nature is such that we often won't yield to God until the pain of not doing so is very great. For many, they are destroyed before they can submit to their Maker. I hope you won't be so much in the habit of deflecting God that you become one of these.
 
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SANTOSO

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I am not sure about how you are interpreting this - where does it say the MIND is hostile to God? It says the mind SET ON THE FLESH is hostile - it is talking about MINDSETS surely - not the mind. At least that is how I have heard others explain it.

This is written:
For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. -Romans 8:7
 
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dms1972

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I mean the Greatest Possible Being revealed to us in our conscience, in Creation, and in the Bible.

Its quite a few years ago from when I thought a lot or read about these thing but I remember coming across a dispute in theology about the analogy of being vs the analogy of faith. But leaving that aside I suspect my whole foray into theology (which began quite young) is a way of avoiding more direct or personal contact / interaction with God. Not sure at the moment why I want to avoid that except that the more direct contact - what I think you or someone else described as knowing God rather than merely knowing about God, I suspect brings up something painful.
 
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dms1972

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Interesting. I don't want to hash out Pawson's view with you, however. Not having heard his argument for such a view, I can only say that, as you've described it here, I wouldn't agree with him.

Well I maybe have misunderstood him or not presented his view correctly - he does object to speaking about God's 'unconditional love' to the unsaved. If you listen to the sermon you'll will hear his view on it in his own words - I have maybe failed to describe it right.
 
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aiki

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Its quite a few years ago from when I thought a lot or read about these thing but I remember coming across a dispute in theology about the analogy of being vs the analogy of faith. But leaving that aside I suspect my whole foray into theology (which began quite young) is a way of avoiding more direct or personal contact / interaction with God. Not sure at the moment why I want to avoid that except that the more direct contact - what I think you or someone else described as knowing God rather than merely knowing about God, I suspect brings up something painful.

Yeah, we've all got "baggage" under which we labour in approaching God. But, you know, drawing near to God doesn't ever happen as we assess and analyze ourselves and the baggage we've accumulated through life, considering how much of barrier it is to encountering Him. This sort of approach is certain to keep you from God, not move you toward Him. Instead, God urges us to look away from ourselves, from our pain, and hang-ups and sin, to Himself, the One who can bring us into peace and rest.

Well I maybe have misunderstood him or not presented his view correctly - he does object to speaking about God's 'unconditional love' to the unsaved. If you listen to the sermon you'll will hear his view on it in his own words - I have maybe failed to describe it right.

Oh, I'm fully on board with the idea of dismantling the "unconditional love" doctrine that has corrupted the "modern" Gospel. It is not biblical and as a result creates a really warped - and dangerous - picture of God.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Hi,

I am really struggling to find faith. I am not sure what the real root of the problem is. I have posted in this forum however there have been times in my life I thought I was a christian. I have been through many theologies and philosophies and not sure what I really believe. I have had an understanding of christian things to some extent from a young age - but not sure if I have ever really had faith. I have spoken to counsellors and one many years ago said my problem was hypocrisy - i didn't accept that at the time. Its hard for me to see what the problem is. I think I maybe substitute my theological understandings for faith.

Please pray for me.

Thanks
Have you ever experienced seeing the awfulness of the wrong you do in your life and wept and repented (were deeply sorry)? If you have not seen this and repented and been forgiven, you are not a Christian. There is no forgiveness without seeing your sin and repenting. And without forgiveness there is no being a follower of Jesus. This is what you should ask for, for God to show you your sin. It is an act of His but we can ask Him to open our eyes and see ourselves as He does.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Yes I have a problem believing there is a God and trusting Him.

Does God love me? Well I posted a link about that from David Pawson - basically he argues we can count on God's love once we are believers - not as unbelievers. Wereas some others say God loves everyone unconditionally - but I guess for me its belief in God, in his existence / reality that I struggle with - I have been through all the arguments from time to time as well as the modern theology (in this case Tillich) and how it says we should not speak of God as existing like a thing or object.
I think the answer to that question is best summed up in:

For God so loved the world (everyone) that He gave his only begotten Son (he has more than one son but only one begotten) that whosoever (not everyone he loves) believes in Him shall have everlasting life.
 
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dms1972

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I am not sure how to explain this but I'll give it a go and maybe I am overthinking everything but the issue on my mind as far as God is concerned is to do with the difference between "belief" in God as something I do versus God himself as an objective reality. In the first I am in my world of belief or ideas and relating to those as it were, and in the second I would be dealing with objective reality. But I suppose thats the whole issue does my view of reality include God? I have met people for whom reality definitely does not include God and they are strongly opposed to those for whom it does - a clash ensues - one or other must give in.

What I am talking about in thread is related to another one I posted about whether one need reasons to believe in God?

In some ways I think I am past caring. Over twenty years ago I reached that point - like I no longer care. The reason I fell away from church is a bit complex - I am not much of a mixer - the mission hall I grew up going to was mostly adults and older generation - and my dad was the missionary. But even in the Sunday school I never really mixed - I'd just go an sit in my chair while the other kid would be running around. I resisted going to youth organisations. During my teens I'd occasionaly make an attempt to go to some church or another - and after the service someone would point me in the direction of the youth fellowship but I'd no interest in walking into a room by myself where others knew each other and I knew absolutely no one.

So maybe I have been through a false conversion, been through the motions, that leaves me trying to live some kind of christian life while inside I am unchanged - but its a bit complicated because I have been into so much philosophy. And now I feel trapped in unbelief and hypocrisy.

But going back to what i said earlier about belief - I really think there is a sort 'believing' in God which is not in touch with reality - if God is only real when I believe then I am kind of making my own God. Of course it may be to do with what believe deep down about reality and whether there is a God.

For what its worth I have read others experiences of God for instance Joy Gresham (who married CS Lewis) she wrote about how "God came in" - she was an atheist and communist at the time and didn't seem to be trying to believe in God or searching, but she describes how because of events in her life (her husband was having a nervous breakdown and had phoned and she didn't know what was going to happen) defenses were down and "God came in". That seems a lot different to what I am trying to do by "believing".

I doubt very much I am in touch with my own 'inner reality' - I have constructed mental mechanisms to keep me out of touch with it because its a mess and I find it an intolerable state to be in. So I don't really know what I want.
 
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1watchman

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Well, dms, you have received very good biblical counsel here, and you continue saying you just do not believe ---so it appears it is just your choice to go on ignoring the call of our God. and you Will to not read the Bible (as John 3; John 14; etc. to hear God speaking to you about eternal life in Heaven and peace on earth). I will pray for you!
 
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aiki

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I am not sure how to explain this but I'll give it a go and maybe I am overthinking everything but the issue on my mind as far as God is concerned is to do with the difference between "belief" in God as something I do versus God himself as an objective reality. In the first I am in my world of belief or ideas as it were and in the second I am in reality. But I suppose thats the whole issue does my view of reality include God? I have met people for whom reality definitely does not include God and they are strongly opposed to those for whom it does - a clash ensues - one or other must give in.

I've met the same sort of people. They don't interfere with my knowing and walking with God, though. The mere presence of atheist detractors of the Christian faith shouldn't steer you away from God. There are always folk about eager to deny reality - especially these days.

What I am thread is related to another one I posted about whether one need reasons to believe in God?

God seems to think we do, which is why we have the testimony of Creation, the witness of our conscience, and the special revelation of Scripture giving us plenty of reason to believe in Him.

In some ways I think I am past caring. Over twenty years ago I reached that point - like I no longer care.

This is inevitably what happens when you suppress the truth of God. After a time of denying Him - which is what you do, essentially, each time you consider Him as a possibility but walk away - you have calloused yourself to the whole matter. Whatever inner prompting you've had you've denied and each time you do so, the prompting grows quieter. Eventually, you'll cease to care at all. The Bible calls this "hardening."

The reason I fell away from church is a bit complex - I am not much of a mixer - the mission hall I grew up going to was mostly adults and older generation - and my dad was the missionary. But even in the Sunday school I never really mixed - I'd just go an sit in my chair while the other kid would be running around. I resisted going to youth organisations. During my teens I'd occasionaly make an attempt to go to some church or another - and after the service someone would point me in the direction of the youth fellowship but I'd no interest in walking into a room by myself where others knew each other and I knew absolutely no one.

I can relate. I was an introverted pastor's kid. Had a hard time socially as a young person. God has done a great deal of inner "renovating" since then...

So maybe I have been through a false conversion, been through the motions, that leaves me trying to live some kind of christian life while inside I am unchanged - but its a bit complicated because I have been into so much philosophy. And now I feel trapped in unbelief and hypocrisy.

"Feelings come and feelings go,
And feelings are deceiving..."

But going back to what i said earlier about belief - I really think there is a sort 'believing' in God which is not in touch with reality - if God is only real when I believe then I am kind of making my own God. Of course it may be to do with what believe deep down about reality and whether there is a God.

God is only real when you believe? Um, no. Goodness, what a peculiar idea. This ain't the God revealed in the Bible. If anything, we're figments of His mind.

I doubt very much I am in touch with my own 'inner reality' - I have constructed mental mechanisms to keep me out of touch with it because its a mess and I find it an intolerable state to be in. So I don't really know what I want.

It's not really about what you want - this question of God's existence - but of what you need. If He exists and is who the Bible says He is, you cannot do without Him!
 
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dms1972

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I've met the same sort of people. They don't interfere with my knowing and walking with God, though. The mere presence of atheist detractors of the Christian faith shouldn't steer you away from God. There are always folk about eager to deny reality - especially these days.

Not all atheists are alike - and the same for christians, not all are alike. But what is it that causes the clash between some?

Take the late Francis Schaeffer, some of whose books I have read. After he worked through the question "why is there something rather than nothing?" - there was no doubt left in his mind about God's being there, he said could prove God's existence - or demonstate the christian answer was the only one which answered the question why is there something rather than nothing. His demonstration entailed showing that other answers to that question were inadequate in some way - thus leaving the christian one as the only one that didn't entail an irrational leap of faith. It's almost like faith isn't needed for Schaeffer as far as God's existence is concerned - but does the Bible not say in Hebrews 11:3,6 as regards God's existence that it is a matter of faith rather than reason? Schaeffer seems to provide a demonstration through reason.
 
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aiki

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It's almost like faith isn't needed for Schaeffer as far as God's existence is concerned - but does the Bible not say in Hebrews 11:3,6 as regards God's existence that it is a matter of faith rather than reason? Schaeffer seems to provide a demonstration through reason.

Faith is required in walking with God, not, I think, in order to know He exists, but because He is a Spirit, above the natural, material world, and dealing with us from this realm. He declares truth to us that is spiritual, inaccessible to empirical testing and verification. And so, we will inevitably require faith in order to accept and live in accord with these spiritual realities. But we will be more easy, more confident, in doing so when we have a solid basis - as Schaeffer did - in the facts and reason underpinning the Christian worldview.
 
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dms1972

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This is inevitably what happens when you suppress the truth of God. After a time of denying Him - which is what you do, essentially, each time you consider Him as a possibility but walk away - you have calloused yourself to the whole matter. Whatever inner prompting you've had you've denied and each time you do so, the prompting grows quieter. Eventually, you'll cease to care at all. The Bible calls this "hardening."

This may be the case with me to some extent, but its also the case that I embraced philosophical and theological ideas in the past that are not held by every christian - Barthianism would be one. Now it depends who you read - some think Barth's theology the worst departure from Historic Christianity there has been (among those who think this would be Van Til and Schaeffer - and since Schaeffer was a student of Van Til I believe he came to his negative appraisal of Barth because of Van Til's influence). I see other examples of the same molding influences of one theologian on another - for instance that of John Gerstner on RC Sproul IMO. This is not to say that Van Til and Schaeffer held exactly the same theological positions on every point of theology - they didn't - but it seems to me they were pretty much of like mind when it came to Barth. So I am not sure how much Schaeffer came to his critical views about Barth for himself - did he not absorb the criticism of his teacher to some extent? Van Til's critique of Barth has been called "grotesque" by some.

Faith and Theology: The worst book ever written on Karl Barth

So yes I approach Christianity through theology to some extent - however I have tried to let the Bible critique my understandings - and BTW I haven't found many christians who do that.
 
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VCR-2000

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I have a similar struggle of wanting to be thankful for a lot of the things God provided me that I loved, but I can't help being mad and my faith level is otherwise a wreck. Like why must millions and millions of Christians and others be persecuted and mass culled in the name of the "ultimate good"?
 
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Dorothy Mae

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I have a similar struggle of wanting to be thankful for a lot of the things God provided me that I loved, but I can't help being mad and my faith level is otherwise a wreck. Like why must millions and millions of Christians and others be persecuted and mass culled in the name of the "ultimate good"?
Why do you think that happens for some ultimate good? Do you think God isn’t mad at that? Do you believe the will of God is done on the earth like the Muslims believe the will of Allah is always done? The will of God is not often done let alone always. Do you see that?
 
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