Strongest reasons to disbelieve Christianity

[InterestedAtheist]

Are we debating God, the Bible, or Christianity? It seems to me there is some confusion here.

I'm sure @2PhiloVoid could give you the run down on the intricacies of hermeneutics. Suffice it to say, I don't think the Bible is so straightforward on what it has to say about God. There isn't one single perspective, but multiple perspectives.

If the Bible were so straightforward, Jesus and the Pharisees would not have disagreed.

Right now, I have no idea what we're debating. I've presented a point - that, when you examine the events that the stories in the Bible - essentially, the substance of Christianity - they show God as being far from all-wise; rather, they show Him to be incompetent.

I'm guessing you disagree with that, but your replies so far have been so vague, I honestly don't know what you're talking about.

Perhaps you could state your position clearly?

 

[FireDragon76]

Right now, I have no idea what we're debating. I've presented a point - that, when you examine the events that the stories in the Bible - essentially, the substance of Christianity - they show God as being far from all-wise; rather, they show Him to be incompetent.

How can things that are widely understood by mainstream scholars as folk stories and legends be understood as a factual account of God? Most mainline Protestants do their theology in light of that.

The uninformed views of uneducated laypeople must be taken with a grain of salt in these matters.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

How can things that are widely understood by mainstream scholars as folk stories and legends be understood as a factual account of God? Most mainline Protestants do their theology in light of that.
The uninformed views of uneducated laypeople must be taken with a grain of salt in these matters.

I think you're quite right! People, of course, shouldn't believe that the Earth is six thousand years old, no matter what the Bible teaches. Nor should they believe that a pillar of fire led a wandering tribe of desert people, or a sea split in half at the command of a prophet, or that a man was able to walk on water, multiply food, or die and come back to life. Nor should they hold to their ridiculous beliefs that it is possible to live on after your body dies, or that when they talk to God they are doing anything other than talking to themselves.
In all of these, whatever authoritative opinion there is on it - scientists, scholars, whoever you should be asking for a reliable view - agrees that it's irrational.

But that's not what we're discussing, is it?

The fact is, most Christians do believe these things. Including most "mainline Protestants". They believe that God has a plan. That He sent His only son (who is also, somehow, Himself) down to save people, and that all people should become Christians.
And I'm just pointing out, that if you follow the Christian story - whether it's the literalist view of the Bible, or the more liberal view - God is plainly incompetent.
I'm sorry, I'm sure that your point about the whether or not the beliefs of the vast majority of Christians are correct is an interesting one. But it's just not what we're talking about here, and I'd like to stay on topic.

 

[FireDragon76]

I think you're quite right! People, of course, shouldn't believe that the Earth is six thousand years old, no matter what the Bible teaches. Nor should they believe that a pillar of fire led a wandering tribe of desert people, or a sea split in half at the command of a prophet, or that a man was able to walk on water, multiply food, or die and come back to life. Nor should they hold to their ridiculous beliefs that it is possible to live on after your body dies, or that when they talk to God they are doing anything other than talking to themselves.
In all of these, whatever authoritative opinion there is on it - scientists, scholars, whoever you should be asking for a reliable view - agrees that it's irrational.

But that's not what we're discussing, is it?

The fact is, most Christians do believe these things. Including most "mainline Protestants". They believe that God has a plan. That He sent His only son (who is also, somehow, Himself) down to save people, and that all people should become Christians.
And I'm just pointing out, that if you follow the Christian story - whether it's the literalist view of the Bible, or the more liberal view - God is plainly incompetent.

I don't think you understand the mainline Protestant perspective very well to come to that conclusion. You seem to be working from a literalist/fundamentalist reading yourself, in a way that isn't comprehensive of Christian belief.

Let's put it this way, theologians have generally never understood the Biblical narrative in such a plain, naive sense. So you are really building up a strawman.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I don't think you understand the mainline Protestant perspective very well to come to that conclusion. You seem to be working from a literalist reading yourself, in a way that isn't comprehensive of Christian belief.

Let's put it this way, theologians have generally never understood the Biblical narrative in such a plain, naive sense. So you are really building up a strawman.

... it could also simply be that he's giving us a "Tokyo Rose" reading of the Bible, such as either a Modern Satanist or a Communist might wish to do in order to bring about disinformation and disinclination in regard to the Christian faith. I mean, it's not like Christians are the only ones who might have a political agenda in the mix as they assert their respective forms of ideological chutzpah ...

 

[FireDragon76]

... it could also simply be that he's giving us a "Tokyo Rose" reading of the Bible, such as either a Modern Satanist or a Communist might wish to do in order to bring about disinformation and disinclination in regard to the Christian faith. I mean, it's not like Christians are the only ones who might have a political agenda in the mix as they assert their respective forms of ideological chutzpah ...

Yes.

I have my own issues with Christianity but it's not so much naked antipathy to the Bible (it's just a book, after all) as much as just seeing myself as having a perspective that transcends it and therefore, finding no home there, even if I do have a certain amount of roots. But I can appreciate for some people, it is the place they need to be and see no benefit in taking cheap shots at the Bible.

From an irreligious perspective, the world is surely full of alot of bufoonery. So I don't think bufoonery is something that the atheist can really level against the God portrayed in the Bible and use that to discredit Christianity per se. That God enters into a world of foolishness is perfectly congruent with the Christian account of things rooted in the Incarnation.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I don't think you understand the mainline Protestant perspective very well to come to that conclusion. You seem to be working from a literalist/fundamentalist reading yourself, in a way that isn't comprehensive of Christian belief.

Perhaps you just don't understand the way Christians think about God. If you think that a majority, or even a large minority of the people in the world who call themselves "Christians" don't believe in the story of the Bible, you are mistaken.

Let's put it this way, theologians have generally never understood the Biblical narrative in such a plain, naive sense. So you are really building up a strawman.

Theologians, eh? I'm sorry, I thought we were discussing what Christians think about Christianity - not liberal scholars with fringe views.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

... it could also simply be that he's giving us a "Tokyo Rose" reading of the Bible, such as either a Modern Satanist or a Communist might wish to do in order to bring about disinformation and disinclination in regard to the Christian faith. I mean, it's not like Christians are the only ones who might have a political agenda in the mix as they assert their respective forms of ideological chutzpah ...

So exciting to be a Christian. Dangerous enemies around every corner. Communists! Satanists!

 

[FireDragon76]

Perhaps you just don't understand the way Christians think about God. If you think that a majority, or even a large minority of the people in the world who call themselves "Christians" don't believe in the story of the Bible, you are mistaken.

Theologians, eh? I'm sorry, I thought we were discussing what Christians think about Christianity - not liberal scholars with fringe views.

Do you regularly prefer uninformed opinions to the scholarly?

I don't think liberal scholars are all that much on the fringe really. Some appear on TV all the time, like on the History Channel or PBS for instance, when Biblical subjects or Christianity are being discussed.

And isn't this just an appeal ad populum?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

From an irreligious perspective, the world is surely full of alot of bufoonery. So I don't think bufoonery is something that the atheist can really level against the God portrayed in the Bible and use that to discredit Christianity per se. That God enters into a world of foolishness is perfectly congruent with the Christian account of things rooted in the Incarnation.

Sure it is. But that God Himself acts like a buffoon is not expected.
Do Christians not believe that God incarnated Himself to save us? He got Himself executed ignominiously.
Do Christians not believe that God's plan was to convert people to Christianity? It's failed. And the "success" that He has had is ridiculously fractured and plagued by scandals.
Do Christians believe that most people will go to Hell? Most Christians do. I don't think that's much of a success for God.

Now, you yourself may not share these views. That's fine. But you should at least inform yourself about the beliefs of others.

 

[FireDragon76]

Sure it is. But that God Himself acts like a buffoon is not expected.
Do Christians not believe that God incarnated Himself to save us? He got Himself executed ignominiously.
Do Christians not believe that God's plan was to convert people to Christianity? It's failed. And the "success" that He has had is ridiculously fractured and plagued by scandals.
Do Christians believe that most people will go to Hell? Most Christians do. I don't think that's much of a success for God.

Now, you yourself may not share these views. That's fine. But you should at least inform yourself about the beliefs of others.

A "failed God" is perfectly compatible with Dietrich Bonhoeffer's take on theology, and his views widely informed mainline Protestantism in the late 20th century.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

So exciting to be a Christian. Dangerous enemies around every corner. Communists! Satanists!

I don't know that 'exciting' would be the word I'd choose.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Do you regularly prefer uninformed opinions to the scholarly?

I don't think liberal scholars are all that much on the fringe really. Some appear on TV all the time, like on the History Channel or PBS for instance, when Biblical subjects or Christianity are being discussed.

And isn't this just an appeal ad populum?

I think you've wandered into the wrong discussion, Fire Dragon.
We're not talking about the correct way to interpret the Bible.
We're talking about the way in which people do interpret the Bible; and how, if you take it seriously, it shows God to be incompetent.
So yes, Christians who say that the Old Testament should be taken literally are pretty standard; and liberal theologians who say that there is doubt about whether or not the New Testament should be taken literally are fringe views. Many Christians are fundamentalists who do believe that the Old Testament is factual; and almost all of the others accept the New Testament as factual.
If you are a Christian who does not believe that Jesus was the son of God and rose from the dead, then yes, you're a fringe view.

And if you, FireDragon76, don't realise that the Bible Story is, basically, Christianity for the majority of Christians, then you're much mistaken.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

A "failed God" is perfectly compatible with Dietrich Bonhoeffer's take on theology, and his views widely informed mainline Protestantism in the late 20th century.

Good for him. Sounds like he may agree with me, at least to an extent. So are you saying that the views I've been arguing are correct, and that the Christian story does show God to be a failure?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I don't know that 'exciting' would be the word I'd choose.

Oh, come on. You're loving it! Tokyo Rose! Spies and danger!

 

[FireDragon76]

I think being a Christian should be defined as a person who follows Jesus, not as a person who believes the earth is 6000 years old, snakes talk, worlds flood, etc.

 

[FireDragon76]

Good for him. Sounds like he may agree with me, at least to an extent. So are you saying that the views I've been arguing are correct, and that the Christian story does show God to be a failure?

If I were to answer that, it could only be misleading. Better to understand and appreciate Bonhoeffer on his own terms.

Suffice it to say there are Christians that take seriously all your objections. They may not be the majority but they do exist. Bonhoeffer was obviously one of them. And they aren't uninfluential, even if they are not well represented here.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Oh, come on. You're loving it! Tokyo Rose! Spies and danger!

For some reason, being that C.S. Lewis' book, The Screwtape Letters, had a significant and early influence in my Christian thought, I don't really see the whole Christian experience, especially as given in Pauline terms, as one that is analogous to how I feel when I watch an Avengers or Star Wars movie.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I think being a Christian should be defined as a person who follows Jesus, not as a person who believes the earth is 6000 years old, snakes talk, worlds flood, etc.

Okay, so you're not a fundamentalist. Good for you. But you realise, lots of people are. Lots of people do think that the world is 6000 years old. Right?
And even for the ones who aren't fundamentalists and believe the Earth is, in fact, four and a half billion years old, plenty of Christians accept that many of the events in the Old Testament did happen. Do you agree with that?

The essay I quoted is aimed at such fundamentalists. I have the suspicion that you are agreeing with me about how their views show god to be a bungler.

Am I right?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I'm afraid I have to go to bed now. See you tomorrow!