Strongest reasons to disbelieve Christianity

[cloudyday2]

It might be interesting to find a list of the strongest reasons to disbelieve Christianity and then debate each of these reasons in a dedicated thread.

I found one list, but I don't know if this is the best list.
Eight reasons Christianity is false - Atheist Alliance International

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

It might be interesting to find a list of the strongest reasons to disbelieve Christianity and then debate each of these reasons in a dedicated thread.

There have always been reasons to disobey Yahuweh.
Adam and Havah (Eve) listened to hasatan and disobeyed, and look what happened.

Already today how many are condemned because of their unbelief (disbelief), as God Says in His Word ? (we may not know fully, but He Knows Fully) ....
and as God says frequently,
Woe to anyone who causes a little one, or someone weak in faith , to stumble (to hurt their pure heart/ faith/ life trusting in Jesus their Savior) .
... it would be better for them to have a millstone placed around their neck and be tossed into the deep ocean.

 

[SkyWriting]

It might be interesting to find a list of the strongest reasons to disbelieve Christianity and then debate each of these reasons in a dedicated thread.

I found one list, but I don't know if this is the best list.
Eight reasons Christianity is false - Atheist Alliance International

1. There is clear evidence that prayer does not work despite the Bible promising prayers will be answered.

Prayers are already answered because God knows what you need before you pray.
So the cause & effect required for science is not a possibility.
But prayer works fine, for the person praying. It changes them.

 

[Not David]

I feel like you are a nice guy but the article's point is full of strawman arguments of a proud person who thinks he knows about Christianity.

"Infecting children" lol

 

[FireDragon76]

There is clear evidence that prayer does not work despite the Bible promising prayers will be answered.

This is philosophically naive, considering that prayer isn't necessarily a mechanistic process with a specific goal. Nor is intercessory prayer a critical part of all interpretations of Christianity. Some liberal Christians do not interpret prayer "working" in this manner.

There is clear evidence that humans invent gods. Humans have invented so many gods that the default assumption should be that a god is a supernatural entity invented by humans. Christianity would need solid evidence that the Jewish god is an exception to this rule but there is no such evidence

Why does God have to be a supernatural entity to make Christianity viable? Again, some liberal Christians don't interpret God this way.

There is clear evidence that religions and gods are propagated through culture by infecting children, and no evidence that they are propagated by gods.

A naive view of religion.

There is clear evidence that Christianity has evolved as human understanding of the world has changed whilst a real, God-given religion, should never need to change.

Another dumb philosophical assumption without justification. IT tells us more about the psychological needs of some people than the objective truth of Christianity, or religion in general.

 

[FireDragon76]

But prayer works fine, for the person praying. It changes them.

Since I distanced myself from Lutheranism, I actually find myself praying more . Not to a deity per se, but more along the lines of what you are talking about. Intentions have power behind them, and that isn't magic or superstition to say that. That's why pro athletes engage in various mental exercises, so their minds will be focused... and it does work.

 

[PloverWing]

Answering briefly, I'd say:

#1 and #8 have good points to make, though I wouldn't word them the way the article does. #1's objection is to petitionary prayer, and there are other kinds of prayer. For #8, I wouldn't say that "there is...evidence that the arguments...are logically flawed"; I'd just say the arguments are logically flawed. If we're talking about logical proofs, the proof is either correct or it isn't.

For #2-#4, I'd explore the possibility that our understanding of God grows over time, and that growing understanding gets expressed in religious beliefs that grow and change over time.

#5 is a serious issue. Some Christians address it by seeing the possibility that the work of Christ may apply even to people who do not believe or understand it.

#6 is worth exploring in the WWMC forum. Many moderate-to-liberal Christians see the Bible as a human witness to God's work on earth which is neither dictated by God nor inerrant. There are multiple ways that Christians understand the word "inspired".

For #7, the author of the article should study a wider range of Christian theories of the atonement.


The article is an interesting starting point for discussion, at least in the list of topics it gives, but there might be another list out there that gives more carefully worded arguments against Christianity.

 

[SkyWriting]

Since I distanced myself from Lutheranism, I actually find myself praying more . Not to a deity per se, but more along the lines of what you are talking about. Intentions have power behind them, and that isn't magic or superstition to say that. That's why pro athletes engage in various mental exercises, so their minds will be focused... and it does work.

If one requests the correct prayer from God, He will "miraculously" answer it. The supernatural event is God letting you know he answered you. From an outside point of view there was no miracle. Only the pray-er knows better. This is how prayer changes you. By God letting you know He answered it before you see it happen.

 

[SkyWriting]

It might be interesting to find a list of the strongest reasons to disbelieve Christianity and then debate each of these reasons in a dedicated thread.I found one list, but I don't know if this is the best list.

There is clear evidence that humans invent gods. Humans have invented so many gods that the default assumption should be that a god is a supernatural entity invented by humans. Christianity would need solid evidence that the Jewish god is an exception to this rule but there is no such evidence.

There is only one God. The fact that man universally seeks God is evidence He exists.
Animals don't seek God. So it's evidently not a natural aspect of evolution.

 

[SkyWriting]

It might be interesting to find a list of the strongest reasons to disbelieve Christianity and then debate each of these reasons in a dedicated thread.I found one list, but I don't know if this is the best list.

There is clear evidence that religions and gods are propagated through culture by infecting children, and no evidence that they are propagated by gods.

Widely isolated cultures pursue similar spiritual ideas. With no supporting evidence, all religion would end in one generation.

 

[SkyWriting]

I found one list, but I don't know if this is the best list.

Christian theology is incoherent to the point of absurdity. God killing his son so he can forgive our future sin is like me breaking my son’s legs so I can forgive my neighbor in case she ever parks her car on my drive. It is quite ridiculous.

A closer analogy is that you are the judge of your neighbors parking antics (the example given) and you send your son to be the lawyer to defend your neighbors actions. Your son, the defense lawyer, offers to pay all the fines for all the defendant actions for life.

You, the judge, say "You are willing to vouch for this sinner?" Your son says that the defendant understands the crime and so "I will vouch for the defendant with my reputation and even give up my life for them." The judge says that "All future violations will not be counted then because you have vouched for them, and I trust your judgment. You seem to have a good head on your shoulders."

 

[cloudyday2]

Answering briefly, I'd say:

#1 and #8 have good points to make, though I wouldn't word them the way the article does. #1's objection is to petitionary prayer, and there are other kinds of prayer. For #8, I wouldn't say that "there is...evidence that the arguments...are logically flawed"; I'd just say the arguments are logically flawed. If we're talking about logical proofs, the proof is either correct or it isn't.

For #2-#4, I'd explore the possibility that our understanding of God grows over time, and that growing understanding gets expressed in religious beliefs that grow and change over time.

#5 is a serious issue. Some Christians address it by seeing the possibility that the work of Christ may apply even to people who do not believe or understand it.

#6 is worth exploring in the WWMC forum. Many moderate-to-liberal Christians see the Bible as a human witness to God's work on earth which is neither dictated by God nor inerrant. There are multiple ways that Christians understand the word "inspired".

For #7, the author of the article should study a wider range of Christian theories of the atonement.


The article is an interesting starting point for discussion, at least in the list of topics it gives, but there might be another list out there that gives more carefully worded arguments against Christianity.

Thanks, I agree with those thoughts and concerns. I liked the list because it was broad and touched-on some of my own reasons, but probably there is a better list somewhere.

My motivation is that many of the threads in this apologetics sub-forum seem to be irrelevant. Possibly the Christian apologists have no clue what motivates people to disbelieve, so they cannot defend Christianity against the more relevant reasons. Also the issue of Christianity and God seem to be conflated. Ideally the Christian apologists need to defend Christianity.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

It might be interesting to find a list of the strongest reasons to disbelieve Christianity and then debate each of these reasons in a dedicated thread.

I found one list, but I don't know if this is the best list.
Eight reasons Christianity is false - Atheist Alliance International

I'm not sure if this is the best list for debating Christians with. I agree with most of the things on it, mind, but they seem more like conclusions than arguments.

Can I offer this: Bob Seidensticker, of the Cross Examined website, has a list of "Silver Bullet" arguments.
25 Reasons We Don’t Live in a World with a God

Appendix: 25 Reasons We Don’t Live in a World with a God (complete list)

1. 1. Because we’ve seen what Christian society looks like
   2. Because religious beliefs reflect culture
   3. Because God needs praise and worship
   4. Because there’s a map of world religions
   5. Because nothing distinguishes those who follow god from everyone else
   6. Because televangelists make clear that prayer doesn’t work
   7. Because Christians want help from the government
   8. Because of unnecessary physical pain
   9. Because God gets credit for good things, but he’s never blamed for bad things
   10. Because the universe doesn’t look like it exists with mankind in mind
   11. Because God is absent from where we’d expect him
   12. Because physics rules out the soul or the afterlife
   13. Because “Christianity answers life’s Big Questions!” is irrelevant
   14. Because not even Christians take their religion seriously
   15. Because there’s a book called The Big Book of Bible Difficulties
   16. Because Christianity can’t be derived from first principles
   17. Because theism has no method to decide truth
   18. Because there are natural disasters
   19. Because the “best” Christian arguments are deist arguments
   20. Because the Bible story keeps rebooting
   21. Because doctrinal statements exist
   22. Because prayer doesn’t work
   23. Because of Shermer’s Law
   24. Because Christianity evolves
   25. Because God is hidden

 

[holo]

I've read better arguments against Christianity and I've seen pretty good Christian answers to most of that stuff.

I think the strongest arguments (for me) are the fact that I just don't see good enough evidence that it's true, and that Christianity (at least the way I used to believe) is internally inconsistent, self-contradicting and nonsensical (when I was a believer, it was just tossed in the "mystery" bag).

A closer analogy is that you are the judge of your neighbors parking antics (the example given) and you send your son to be the lawyer to defend your neighbors actions. Your son, the defense lawyer, offers to pay all the fines for all the defendant actions for life.

You, the judge, say "You are willing to vouch for this sinner?" Your son says that the defendant understands the crime and so "I will vouch for the defendant with my reputation and even give up my life for them." The judge says that "All future violations will not be counted then because you have vouched for them, and I trust your judgment. You seem to have a good head on your shoulders."

This is one of the things that just makes no sense to me. Of course God isn't obliged to make sense to me, but the bible does try to explain why Jesus had to die. But it looks pretty inconsistent that God can simply decide to forgive (like we are commanded to!), but also that he HAD to punish Jesus for our sins. And nobody can live a righteous life, yet, there are stories of people living a life that's good enough for God, like Noah. No wonder Christians can't agree on grace vs. works and OSAS and predestination and so forth.

 

[Larniavc]

It might be interesting to find a list of the strongest reasons to disbelieve Christianity and then debate each of these reasons in a dedicated thread.

I found one list, but I don't know if this is the best list.
Eight reasons Christianity is false - Atheist Alliance International

My favourite is this: the evidence for God is unconvincing.

As in the Bible makes a lot of claims but I’ve never come across any substantiation of those claims.

 

[SkyWriting]

I've read better arguments against Christianity and I've seen pretty good Christian answers to most of that stuff.

I think the strongest arguments (for me) are the fact that I just don't see good enough evidence that it's true, and that Christianity (at least the way I used to believe) is internally inconsistent, self-contradicting and nonsensical (when I was a believer, it was just tossed in the "mystery" bag).This is one of the things that just makes no sense to me. Of course God isn't obliged to make sense to me, but the bible does try to explain why Jesus had to die. But it looks pretty inconsistent that God can simply decide to forgive (like we are commanded to!), but also that he HAD to punish Jesus for our sins. And nobody can live a righteous life, yet, there are stories of people living a life that's good enough for God, like Noah. No wonder Christians can't agree on grace vs. works and OSAS and predestination and so forth.

You seem to be avoiding what I wrote because nothing you say relates to my example.

So you are arguing with your girlfriend for example. She says "Your a jerk."
You then snap her neck.
You then push her down a flight of steps.
You stand before the jury and say "She fell".
So you live out the rest of your life and die of old age,
pennyless or a millionaire, you can pick your fate.

Standing before God you both recall the incident.
God says...."What do you have to say about this incident?"
You respond "What would you know about life on earth? It's a hard thing, being human. You have no right to judge me sitting up here in Paradise!"

So there's another answer to your question.
Who can judge you other than somebody who has walked in your shoes
and been unjustly put to death?

But...having been in your shoes....the judge NOW has the ability to forgive you.

This is the new covenant with God. He now has the background needed to forgive you. Because he gave his only son, He now knows the experience of the mother, the father, the son, the victim, the citizen, and every human suffering.

 

[SkyWriting]

There is clear evidence that humans on this planet have unequal access to Christianity so, if Christianity were true, billions would be condemned to hell for no fault of their own. This contradicts the Christian notion that God is omnibenevolent.

The lack of reading or hearing of the story of Jesus is no excuse. No book is required.
Somehow, the word got out about God before Jesus was born.


Genesis 1:1
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

Romans 1:20
For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

Isaiah 40:26
Lift up your eyes on high and see: who created these? He who brings out their host by number, calling them all by name, by the greatness of his might, and because he is strong in power not one is missing.

Psalm 19:1-6
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork. Day to day pours out speech, and night to night reveals knowledge. There is no speech, nor are there words, whose voice is not heard. Their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has set a tent for the sun, which comes out like a bridegroom leaving his chamber, and, like a strong man, runs its course with joy.

Psalm 33:6-9
By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and by the breath of his mouth all their host. He gathers the waters of the sea as a heap; he puts the deeps in storehouses. Let all the earth fear the Lord; let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him! For he spoke, and it came to be; he commanded, and it stood firm.

Psalm 8:3
When I look at your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place,

Psalm 104:5
He set the earth on its foundations, so that it should never be moved.

Psalm 119:90
Your faithfulness endures to all generations; you have established the earth, and it stands fast.

Psalm 104:31
May the glory of the Lord endure forever; may the Lord rejoice in his works,

Deuteronomy 4:19
And beware lest you raise your eyes to heaven, and when you see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the host of heaven, you be drawn away and bow down to them and serve them, things that the Lord your God has allotted to all the peoples under the whole heaven.

Isaiah 26:4
Trust in the Lord forever, for the Lord God is an everlasting rock.

Psalm 139:13
For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb.

Jeremiah 5:21
“Hear this, O foolish and senseless people, who have eyes, but see not, who have ears, but hear not.

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Psalm 148:8-12
fire and hail, snow and mist, stormy wind fulfilling his word! Mountains and all hills, fruit trees and all cedars! Beasts and all livestock, creeping things and flying birds! Kings of the earth and all peoples, princes and all rulers of the earth! Young men and maidens together, old men and children!

Deuteronomy 33:27
The eternal God is your dwelling place, and underneath are the everlasting arms. And he thrust out the enemy before you and said, Destroy.

Psalm 90:2
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you had formed the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God.

Jeremiah 23:5-6
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell securely. And this is the name by which he will be called: ‘The Lord is our righteousness.’

Isaiah 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Revelation 19:16
On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.

Isaiah 10:21
A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God.

Psalm 45:6
Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. The scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of uprightness;

 

[InterestedAtheist]

You seem to be avoiding what I wrote because nothing you say relates to my example.

So you are arguing with your girlfriend for example. She says "Your a jerk."
You then snap her neck.
You then push her down a flight of steps.
You stand before the jury and say "She fell".
So you live out the rest of your life and die of old age,
pennyless or a millionaire, you can pick your fate.

Standing before God you both recall the incident.
God says...."What do you have to say about this incident?"
You respond "What would you know about life on earth? It's a hard thing, being human. You have no right to judge me sitting up here in Paradise!"

So there's another answer to your question.
Who can judge you other than somebody who has walked in your shoes
and been unjustly put to death?

But...having been in your shoes....the judge NOW has the ability to forgive you.

This is the new covenant with God. He now has the background needed to forgive you. Because he gave his only son, He now knows the experience of the mother, the father, the son, the victim, the citizen, and every human suffering.

But that doesn't make sense. The judge only has the ability to judge you if he's been in your shoes? But Jesus wasn't in your shoes. He became human, yes, but he didn't push his wife down the stairs and break her neck. And anyway, isn't this a rather strange idea, that the Creator of the Universe, the all-knowing God has to become a human for some reason? Saying we can't understand God, I can understand. But saying God can't understand us?

Finally, try this in court some day: "Your Honour, how dare you judge me. Yes, I killed my wife. But have you ever been in my situation? No! So how can you presume to pass sentence on me?"

Do you think that would fly?

 

[SkyWriting]

But that doesn't make sense. The judge only has the ability to judge you if he's been in your shoes? But Jesus wasn't in your shoes. He became human, yes, but he didn't push his wife down the stairs and break her neck. And anyway, isn't this a rather strange idea, that the Creator of the Universe, the all-knowing God has to become a human for some reason? Saying we can't understand God, I can understand. But saying God can't understand us?

Finally, try this in court some day: "Your Honour, how dare you judge me. Yes, I killed my wife. But have you ever been in my situation? No! So how can you presume to pass sentence on me?"

Do you think that would fly?

Yes. A judge can only judge if he has walked in your shoes.
We don't have judges imported from Iran in our courts.
We don't allow Martians to judge us.

He can say he can imagine your situation, and not killed.
He'd say he has suffered much worse and let people live. You would not get off.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Yes. A judge can only judge if he has walked in your shoes.
We don't have judges imported from Iran in our courts.
We don't allow Martians to judge us.

He can say he can imagine your situation, and not killed.

He'd say he has suffered much worse and let people live. You would not get off.

Think about what you're saying. It doesn't actually make sense.

If you committed a crime in Iran, would you tell the Iranian judge who tried you that the trial was illegitimate because you were (I assume) a citizen of the USA?

If there was such a thing as a Martian, it would be quite capable, in principle, of judging a law case, assuming it had been through the correct training to understand our legal system. Haven't you ever seen Star Trek? Vulcans and humans may have their differences, but there are plenty of Vulcans in Starfleet.

Also, you haven't addressed what I think is the main point: we may not be able to understand God, but it seems that you are arguing here - correct me if I misunderstand you - that God had to become a human, because otherwise He would not be able to understand us.
Since God knows everything, by definition, that doesn't make sense.