I liked Eloy Craft's reply, it was encouraging, even though I may or may not agree with him from what I said - and actually, I do agree with him more than not, because I do think that besides Rome and Jerusalem being possibly very (very) literally fulfilled already (I'll explain in a moment how), I also think the whole thing points to a wider, spiritual side that is applicable today to the reader today, so the literal fulfillment points to a spiritual truth - much like the churches in the beginning of Revelation were actual churches, but there is also something for every reader with ears to hear what the Spirit says. Essentially, what Eloy catches I think is that Jerusalem isn't the only thing that is called a harlot. Worldliness itself is adultery. James 4 says "Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God?". I was put on this track first when I read Revelation "and all who dwell on earth will worship him" - because all on earth is larger than simply Rome or Jerusalem proper (the original topic of this thread I believe when I entered it). My view of Revelation after its very literal fulfillment is one more for something like a catechism for the believer, a Revelation of Jesus Christ, and the gospel itself (For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy Revelation 19). And in every address to the seven churches "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches" - not just to the churches then.
I don't think much of Davy's post. Besides flaming me for my first post to the entire forum, (against the rules), and mocking (that's funny), it's just completely the wrong spirit - and should to be rejected for just that. It's why I warmed to Eloy's message at the first - it was welcoming, and after reading could see that Eloy isn't being a flatter. I had a hard time parsing part of it, but could agree with some of it. And what I said about futurists I mean, if you are going to ignore the very first sentence in Revelation, "which must shortly come to pass", and say that means +2,000 - 3,000 years, while ignoring very literal fulfilments and ones most of the churches believed for 2,000 years (and catholics too), you ought to be ignored. Before you explain anything else you believe, you ought to explain how shortly come to pass was true and fulfilled. Because if it wasn't, then the whole book should be ignored, because it's untrue. But it did shortly come to pass just like God says.
Before I explain about literal fulfillment, let me point out something about Revelation 11, which wasn't part of my message at all, but besides the bad spirit, a bit of a red herring. I said from the outset I am not easily categorized by man made categories that isn't in the Bible and God doesn't teach, such as preterist, futurist, millennial, amillenial, historicist, etc. Such terms confuse me, and aren't in the Bible or how God teaches I think. I probably believe parts of what each category believes, and could for the sake of conversation argue points from any of them. I also don't consider myself to know everything in Revelation, but consider myself a learner and listening to Jesus. I expect to be learning from it and reading it all my Christian life, to me it is a personal catechism, a way to test myself and ask God some things - it is not meant to me to be a way to attack others, who all of us are probably arguing from some ignorance. seeing through a glass darkly.
I think some things in Revelation are in the future, certainly the day of judgement seems to be in the future to me, but some things have obviously been literally fulfilled - and fyi those things are also prophesied elsewhere in scripture. So it is not necessary for me to believe every part of Revelation has been fulfilled to see that some of it has been obviously fulfilled - and which was largely celebrated in all the churches until 100 years ago - so for instance seeing the Roman empire and destruction of Jerusalem, the preaching of the gospel, and the Lordship of Jesus Christ is easy to see in Revelation, and what is obvious should not be discounted because you do not know everything - which I do not expect. Furthermore, Revelation is not necessarily in sequential order - the fact that it keeps going back and explaining what happened before makes it topical in that respect.
Be that it may be, I do not think Revelation 11 was rightly understood by the poster, and even though it wasn't something I said, before I mention some things I do think are very literally fulfilled, let me point out a few things about it:
This isn't the earthly temple in Revelation 11, in fact it says "And the temple of God was opened in heaven" in Revelation 11, and we see a look at the heavenly temple throughout Revelation, including Revelation 1. No where in Revelation does John give physical measurements to an earthly temple, he gives what looks like spiritual measurements like 144,000 sealed, and the city 12 thousand by 12 thousand, and 144 cubits, etc (Revelation 21) and "the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it." Revelation 21:22, I see the same type of things said many times elsewhere, "you are all the temple of God" (1 Corinthians 3:16 - and that is a plural you in Greek), and 1 Peter 2 "Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.", etc. Also, even the fact that the two olive trees and two candlesticks are standing before God implies the same thing, this is spiritual action that is occurring. Also the "where the Lord was crucified" is not actual the past tense in Greek, it's the aorist, as probably befitting the spiritual, or as one instructor explained it, like as an example on the outside looking in. Regardless, it is not simply the past tense, just like the plural you I just mentioned may make a difference instead of singular you - ie you are all the temple of God is the entire church, but you are the temple of God may be a but egotistical if misread without care.
Lastly, besides the temple of God in heaven being talked about in Revelation 11, and John's spiritual measurements instead of those of a earthly temple, "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever" which is mentioned after the two witnesses happened over 2,000 years ago, and is simply a matter of faith - and one widely believed, as A.D. means in the year of our Lord. Now, next message I will at last mention what I believe has been literally fulfilled for myself. I do not mean I expect anyone else to believe it, or that I can not change my mind, but that for the topic of this thread - is rome or jerusalem being talked about as babylon, what I think has been literally fulfilled. I think my following after Jesus and listening to what he says is more important than any understanding of literal fulfilments of prophecy, even though they seem amazing to me, and also I prefer what I can get out of the gospel and doctrine by reading Revelation - ie actual Revelation. When I read the marriage supper of the Lamb of God, I don't read a physical battle with lots of people being killed, I read something like a huge revival and people being saved. Enough of this, you've been warned - now what I think ob literal fulfilments next message.
