Stop The Babylon Harlot Confusion

[childeye 2]

Getting warmer...

Once the Babylon harlot is completed, which won't be until the false-Messiah sets up Jerusalem for his own, the globalist's dream of a one-world government will be established over all nations and peoples. This is the point of the Revelation 13:1 beast of ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns. In Revelation 13:4-8 we are shown the whole world will worship the "dragon", and he will have power over all nations and peoples for 42 months.

Ancient Babylon-Sumer was the beginning of idol worship of Bel (later Baal). It began with Sargon I who the ancient Sumerians called 'son of Bel', or son of the dragon. That pagan idol worship and philosophy continued with ancient civilizations like Egypt, Greece, Persia, Rome. And those past beast kingdoms were ensamples for the final beast system to be setup at the end of this world per Revelation.

Thus is it the ancient pagan philosophies that some are seeing still among us, even in the western Christian nations. And when less and less of God's people believe on Him and His Christ, one can see the old ways coming back like in Old Testament history when Israel fell to idols. This is why God's Word reveals that for the very end of this world, those who remain faithful waiting on Jesus to return will be a very small remnant of His servants. So the thing is, who wants to be gathered by Him when He comes, and is thus willing to make a stand against the false-Messiah-Antichrist and his beast kingdom once it is completed in our days?

2 Corinthians 11:3
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
Luke 11:34
The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness.

 

[ewq1938]

That part you said that I put in red is the KEY.

The Babylon harlot as a SYMBOL only applies to Jerusalem in a FALLEN WORSHIP state when the coming pseudo-Christ is setup there as God, demanding all to worship him as God per 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4.

The whole world becomes a harlot, not just one city. Jerusalem itself does not match Babylon, despite it being part of Babylon as is the rest of the world during that time.

And per Revelation 21, with the new Jerusalem coming down from God out of Heaven, that is the REAL Jerusalem, God's Jerusalem.

The current Jerusalem is a "real" Jerusalem just as this Earth is still a real Earth. The new versions are just better.

So I wouldn't go putting faith in the earthly city of Jerusalem of this world. The great valley to be formed in that area when Jesus' feet touch down upon the Mount of Olives will take care of that area when He comes (Zechariah 14).

Revelation speaks of an earthquake damaging Jerusalem but it isn't destroyed. As Revelation 20 shows, Jerusalem is inhabited when it is surrounded so it exists and is intact after the second coming, through the Millennium and even is there after the Millennium. Babylon however is destroyed at the timeframe of the second coming and does not exist during the Millennium etc.

TL;DR Jerusalem is not Babylon.

 

[ewq1938]

Babylon is a symbolic city and will be fully destroyed. Jerusalem is a literal city and is not destroyed in the book of Revelation.

Rev 18:17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
Rev 18:18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!

Jerusalem is not burned down nor is it a port city. It simply doesn't fit the description of Babylon or it's demise.


Rev 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

No ships in Jerusalem.


Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
Rev 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

Babylon is found no more at all yet Jerusalem still stands and is occupied at the end of the thousand years when Satan leads an army to surround it.


Rev 18:22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

Jerusalem is one of the nations deceived by Babylon.

In Rev 11:2 before the Great Tribulation starts, Jerusalem is called "the holy city" so it was considered holy even right up to just before the Great Tribulation begins. Only during the 42 months of the AC's reign does the city become "Sodom and Egypt" because the abomination of desolation causes a spiritual desolation in Jerusalem. By Revelation 11:8 the Great Tribulation is almost over. Jerusalem is never a single time called Babylon in scripture but it is called Sodom and Egypt,. Jerusalem is a literal city where Babylon is a symbolic city, symbolized by a religious harlot that rides the ten horned beast. Babylon must therefore be something far larger and global than any one literal city. She is all cities and peoples of the entire world who accepts the false religion of the false god.


Jerusalem is not Babylon.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Well, if you'll notice that Scripture you posted, it is pointing to the Jerusalem that is ABOVE that is holy, not the Jerusalem of today on earth.

Yup. Like the original harlot, mother of harlots, she repents of her harlotry. Jerusalem is not forever populated by children of the bonds woman but by children of freedom and promise who's mother is the New Jerusalem.

 

[Chris35]

Davy just trying to see it from your view.

From what i gather...

Jerusalem commited spiritual adultery by breaking the covenant and following the way of the world.

Therefore God is going to give it over and allow it to become the manifestation of the great city of babylon.

However at the end from what i can tell, he does this to bring about the restoration of Israel and bringing Israel back to God and his ways, in such a way that they will never turn back

 

[RileyG]

Rome is no longer a pagan city. It is full of Christians. I'm a Protestant Christian, but I still do not see the Roman Catholic Church as pagan, even though they have traditions I can never agree with. It was the old Reformers that believed the pope was the Antichrist in their days, because of how the Catholic Church persecuted and killed many Protestant believers. Well, Jesus did not return to destroy a pope back then, so their theories about the pope being the Antichrist, and the Roman Church being the Babylon harlot of Revelation DID NOT PAN OUT. And because of that, I find it amazing that any Bible believer today would get sucked into those Reformation theories that were proven wrong centuries ago.

To be fair, Protestants also killed a lot of Catholics.

 

[Davy]

2 Corinthians 11:3
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
Luke 11:34
The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness.

And your reason for quoting that??

 

[childeye 2]

And your reason for quoting that??

Because your last two sentences brought these particular scriptures to mind.

 

[Davy]

The whole world becomes Administrator harlot, not just one city. Jerusalem itself does not match Babylon, despite it being part of Babylon as is the rest of the world during that time.

I disagree, and there's plenty enough Scripture evidence that Jerusalem will be the Babylon harlot, which is a certain "great city". That's in the singular tense case by the way, so trying to make it plural is the same thing as adding... to God's Word.

Daniel 2 is what you are pointing to, because there we are shown that ALL five pieces of the beast statue parts are all 'together' when Jesus comes to smite it upon its feet of ten toes, and the whole comes falling down together. That reveals that all... the previous beasts are going to be revived and under authority of the final beast kingdom of Revelation 13:1.

It is simply that Jerusalem will be the headquarters of the whole system, as that is where the coming pseudo-Christ is going to setup his abomination idol, in a rebuilt Jewish temple. This Lord Jesus specifically warned His servants about for the very end of this world (Matthew 24; Mark 13; Revelation 13).

The current Jerusalem is a "real" Jerusalem just as this Earth is still a real Earth. The new versions are just better.

Current Jerusalem is in the hands of the globalist's plans for a one-world government, and bringing in 'their' king Lucifer, whom they worship. This is why the U.N. was the authority in creating the state of modern Israel in 1948. It was done by U.N. vote of the nations. This also is why the U.N. still controls the borders of the modern state of Israel, and why Israel doesn't even have control of all of the city of Jerusalem!

So for one to believe that today's Jerusalem represents God's Salvation today is nothing but hype. Jesus warned that it would be in desolation, and so it has been ever since the Romans destroyed it in 70 A.D. and ended old covenant worship with a temple there. It doesn't even have a king of the house of David on a throne there anymore!

Yet God promised that He would leave one tribe there, for His servant David's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake, where He chose to put His name there forever (1 Kings 11). So don't think I'm wanting to write off all the unbelieving Jews there, because Apostle Paul revealed that God blinded them spiritually from The Gospel so it would go to the Gentiles, and that blindness won't be removed until Jesus returns. Then those unbelievers who truly love God there will mourn for Jesus when they discover Who He is.

But for now, Jerusalem is desolate. And it will become even more desolate spiritually when the coming false-Messiah shows up there and the majority of Jews there that reject Jesus as Messiah will instead bow in false worship to the pseudo-Messiah and the "image of the beast" he will setup there, and all that is to come there first.

 

[Davy]

Yup. Like the original harlot, mother of harlots, she repents of her harlotry. Jerusalem is not forever populated by children of the bonds woman but by children of freedom and promise who's mother is the New Jerusalem.

Jerusalem on earth will only ... become holy Jerusalem once the new Jerusalem of the FUTURE comes down to earth out of Heaven, as written in Revelation 21. That won't happen until Jesus Christ returns, which of course will be AFTER the coming "great tribulation" He warned His servants about.

Many orthodox unbelieving Jews, (of which there's apparently some here), are wrongly trying to prop today's Jerusalem up as God's Salvation having come already, just because of a 'partial' return of some of the Jews, and their making a home there which they hadn't had as a people since it was destroyed by the Romans in 70 A.D. Many Christian Churches are invited to see the supposed glory of Jerusalem under all that false hype, and even to give funds to help bring God's Kingdom in there.

But the only... thing that is Scriptural about Jerusalem 'today', is that it is to remain desolate (spiritually) until Jesus Christ returns. And when the prophesied false-Messiah shows up there in our near future, and sets up idol worship there, that will be one of greatest times of the city of Jerusalem as a spiritual harlot that has ever been, even worse than all its past history under the people of Israel.

 

[Davy]

To be fair, Protestants also killed a lot of Catholics.

Yes, of course, but to be fair, who started the persecutions? The Catholic Church, simply because they believed the Protestants were heretics, and we all know what the Roman Church did to heretics back then in those centuries.

So I don't think there are many Catholics that actually fathom what God did with the Protestant movement. And the split was beyond all doubt by God's Hand, as there are ways to know that per His Word. My ancestors came to the Americas in the 16th century because of Catholic persecution. They were French Huguenots, the first French Protestants. They fled to Britain, and from there signed on as indentured servants to the Americas. Many European Protestants populated the American colonies because of religious persecutions, and that war between Catholics and Protestants was one of those kind of events. Same things happened in the British Isles also, and even into modern days, which is most likely how the Catholic Church got established in the Americas too.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Jerusalem on earth will only ... become holy Jerusalem once the new Jerusalem of the FUTURE comes down to earth out of Heaven, as written in Revelation 21. That won't happen until Jesus Christ returns, which of course will be AFTER the coming "great tribulation" He warned His servants about.

Many orthodox unbelieving Jews, (of which there's apparently some here), are wrongly trying to prop today's Jerusalem up as God's Salvation having come already, just because of a 'partial' return of some of the Jews, and their making a home there which they hadn't had as a people since it was destroyed by the Romans in 70 A.D. Many Christian Churches are invited to see the supposed glory of Jerusalem under all that false hype, and even to give funds to help bring God's Kingdom in there.

But the only... thing that is Scriptural about Jerusalem 'today', is that it is to remain desolate (spiritually) until Jesus Christ returns. And when the prophesied false-Messiah shows up there in our near future, and sets up idol worship there, that will be one of greatest times of the city of Jerusalem as a spiritual harlot that has ever been, even worse than all its past history under the people of Israel.

I agree. To add, I see Jerusalem as it is now an echo of Sarah losing faith in the promised child and telling Abraham to father s child with Hagar.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Jerusalem on earth will only ... become holy Jerusalem once the new Jerusalem of the FUTURE comes down to earth out of Heaven, as written in Revelation 21. That won't happen until Jesus Christ returns, which of course will be AFTER the coming "great tribulation" He warned His servants about.

Many orthodox unbelieving Jews, (of which there's apparently some here), are wrongly trying to prop today's Jerusalem up as God's Salvation having come already, just because of a 'partial' return of some of the Jews, and their making a home there which they hadn't had as a people since it was destroyed by the Romans in 70 A.D. Many Christian Churches are invited to see the supposed glory of Jerusalem under all that false hype, and even to give funds to help bring God's Kingdom in there.

But the only... thing that is Scriptural about Jerusalem 'today', is that it is to remain desolate (spiritually) until Jesus Christ returns. And when the prophesied false-Messiah shows up there in our near future, and sets up idol worship there, that will be one of greatest times of the city of Jerusalem as a spiritual harlot that has ever been, even worse than all its past history under the people of Israel.

How about when the Jewish people recognize Jesus as their Messiah? They weep as for an only son.

 

[Skye1300]

Yes, of course, but to be fair, who started the persecutions? The Catholic Church, simply because they believed the Protestants were heretics, and we all know what the Roman Church did to heretics back then in those centuries.

So I don't think there are many Catholics that actually fathom what God did with the Protestant movement. And the split was beyond all doubt by God's Hand, as there are ways to know that per His Word. My ancestors came to the Americas in the 16th century because of Catholic persecution. They were French Huguenots, the first French Protestants. They fled to Britain, and from there signed on as indentured servants to the Americas. Many European Protestants populated the American colonies because of religious persecutions, and that war between Catholics and Protestants was one of those kind of events. Same things happened in the British Isles also, and even into modern days, which is most likely how the Catholic Church got established in the Americas too.

God's hand wasn't in the reformation split because God is not an author of confusion. The result of the reformation was thousands of different denominations and cults all claiming to be the true path. God's not behind anything like that. The Bible says you'll know them by their fruit. And the fruit of the reformation was way too much division from thousands of different denominations.
Not saying other denominations are not Christians, I'm just saying God wasn't behind the split. But now that it's happened God will work through whatever church possible. But He didn't orchestrate the split.

 

[Davy]

How about when the Jewish people recognize Jesus as their Messiah? They weep as for an only son.

Right, as per the end of Zechariah 12. I believe that is the actual idea Jesus was pointing via John in Revelation 1 about His coming in the clouds, and every eye seeing Him, including those who pierced Him.

 

[Davy]

God's hand wasn't in the reformation split because God is not an author of confusion. The result of the reformation was thousands of different denominations and cults all claiming to be the true path. God's not behind anything like that. The Bible says you'll know them by their fruit. And the fruit of the reformation was way too much division from thousands of different denominations.
Not saying other denominations are not Christians, I'm just saying God wasn't behind the split. But now that it's happened God will work through whatever church possible. But He didn't orchestrate the split.

Yeah, His Hand was in it, you just don't understand it, yet. God's Hand was in the old split of Israel into two separate kingdoms in Solomon's day, and also in the kings of Assyria coming upon the ten tribes taking them captive out of their own lands, and He even brought the king of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar, upon Jerusalem to destroy it and the temple, and take Judah captive to Babylon for 70 years.

So don't try to tell me what God will and won't do per views taught by men's doctrines outside of God's Word.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Yeah, His Hand was in it, you just don't understand it, yet. God's Hand was in the old split of Israel into two separate kingdoms in Solomon's day, and also in the kings of Assyria coming upon the ten tribes taking them captive out of their own lands, and He even brought the king of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar, upon Jerusalem to destroy it and the temple, and take Judah captive to Babylon for 70 years.

So don't try to tell me what God will and won't do per views taught by men's doctrines outside of God's Word.

Divided by the Holy Spirit. One side tru the other false.
Reform requires unity, division causes death. Luther chose death.

 

[Davy]

Divided by the Holy Spirit. One side tru the other false.
Reform requires unity, division causes death. Luther chose death.

God said He spoke to Solomon about his falling away twice, before He caused the split of old Israel into two separate kingdoms (1 Kings 11:1-11).

Thus the division comes from man's rebellion against God.

Think of it, God Himself privately contacted Solomon twice for going after the paganism of his many pagan wives.

 

[Eloy Craft]

God said He spoke to Solomon about his falling away twice, before He caused the split of old Israel into two separate kingdoms (1 Kings 11:1-11).

Thus the division comes from man's rebellion against God.

Think of it, God Himself privately contacted Solomon twice for going after the paganism of his many pagan wives.

Good point. Solomon was scandalizing the Kingdom. His subjects remained obedient as God expected. Just as Jesus taught the diciples to be when wicked men rule. Jesus commanded obedience. He didn't nail a list of requirements to a door with an ultimatum.

If Luther had approached the problems as expected of someone responsible for souls. If Luther did what Jesus commanded, if he had just done what Jesus would do, perhaps God would have defended his cause. Maybe he would have been a real reformer.

 

[john the youngest]

With the last bit by Solomon and the context of this thread, as I was reading it as an outside reader, I thought I'd sign on and add a few bits that support the topic. I might stay on the fourums for awhile, they might be interesting, but this is my first post. Note - I'm not taking a particular side, I've often thought I'd seen clear references to rome in scripture. This though is for Jerusalem.

First, the first reference to 666 in the Bible is to Solomon's tribute taking, right before his other gods worshiping and wives, is 1 Kings 10:14. If you want to keep your biblical understanding completely biblical and in the bible, then this would seem to be the verse to use. And it seems to nicely answer the riddle too - my old bible commentary called it a riddle, because Solomon was the wisest man. "Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count", not you, Solomon. Let the verse about Solomon help determine what it means. About every commentator I have ever seen runs off to try to prove himself wise proving this verse, but another source I have on classic riddles say they typically have a turning point or aha gotcha you moment just like this. And fyi - I wasn't any different than any of the those commentators, and ran off to show my understanding. I gave up, and just asked for the answer, so I personally consider for myself to have it by Revelation, but I tried to explain it logically.

By itself, I suppose it could be part of several types of different explanations, from the no man can buy or sell but, to religious tribute, etc. But if it was just literal, it would be Solomon's tribute and old earthly Jerusalem again before an analogy of the same.

2 - for the thread post early about "I sit as a queen and am no widow". Isn't this exactly how earthly Jerusalem and Judaism was? They had just killed the Son of God, the messiah and King - and earthly Jerusalem still was sitting like a queen and no widow.

3. I've always noticed the destruction of Jerusalem in 70ad and Rome seem to very literally fill in much of this prophecy here. I suppose beside this point, you could think similar things as mentioned and believe a whole lot of other beliefs here including futurism. I favor the literal fufilment as being already fulfilled - with a whole lot of lessons for Christians today. It also, incidentally, but is not why I chose it, means vengeance against Jerusalem is in the past. The new promise, new testament, new heabenly Jerusalem, etc, is of course the gospel. Futurists always seem to me to be trying to set up modern israel and jews as the future antichrist. Maybe in 70ad it was - but how many times does a prophecy need to be re-fulfilled? Maybe what futurists think on that is true, but I really think the first line of Revelation - things which must shortly come to pass; - has meaning, and +2,000-3,000 years isn't it.

4 - great harlot OF babylon and babylon may not necessarily be the same thing. The literal babylon took away the jews, and they became the jews OF babylon, not babylon. Also, where it says egypt and sodom, where also their Lord was crucified, I've always noticed it did not also add babylon there.

I actually have not taking a side on rome vs babylon as the great harlot here, or any particular man made named prophetic school of interpretation - which I find confusing, and my understsnding doesn't fit into those categories. I am just thowing out some points for earthly jerusalem - maybe later in the thread I'll argue the other side for rome.