STILL no evidence FOR creation/ID

[HitchSlap]

Remember the fall? In the beginning, man and woman didn't wear clothes. If wearing clothes, you don't really need excess skin for protection. Circumcision just removes the excess skin, not part of the male genitals.

So, what you're saying is, before the fall god designed circumcised penis', and after the fall, he designed them to not be circumcised, and the procedure is punishment for sin, but it's ok, because that's how they were designed in the first place?

 

[Doctor.Sphinx]

So, what you're saying is, before the fall god designed circumcised penis', and after the fall, he designed them to not be circumcised, and the procedure is punishment for sin, but it's ok, because that's how they were designed in the first place?

No. God knows what He designed and what He designed for.

Obviously, for Him to command circumcision, he knew the foreskin wasn't critical to the function of the man. Circumcision was just a covenant sign, like a wedding ring, but it seems to be quite a beneficial "wedding ring" in terms of function and health, and God also commanded it be done at the optimal time. How would ancient man have known this, except for God's intervention?

Perhaps prior to the fall and clothes, the benefit of protective skin outweighed the costs? Perhaps circumcision would have been commanded anyway? All we know is that after the fall, there are health benefits associated with circumcision, and little to no downside (and due to sensitivities in that region, circumcision is not the type of procedure a guy is likely to test out of his own imagination!)

 

[HitchSlap]

(and due to sensitivities in that region, circumcision is not the type of procedure a guy is likely to test out of his own imagination!)

By "sensitive" I'm sure you also mean pleasurable?

And I think you're overestimating the benefits of being circumcised.

 

[Doctor.Sphinx]

By "sensitive" I'm sure you also mean pleasurable?

And I think you're overestimating the benefits of being circumcised.

Nope. Circumcision is painful, not pleasurable. Who would do it just for the fun (i.e. without God telling him to)? Benefits include hygiene, less abuse (i.e. masturbation), reduced likelihood of disease, better sexual function, more pleasure for wife. Even if you don't believe the studies, you should accept that there are studies that conclude these things. Its kind of a difficult one to explain for all the guys in a culture to undergo it (even to this day!), without an all-knowing God having commanded it.

 

[HitchSlap]

Nope. Circumcision is painful, not pleasurable. Who would do it just for the fun (i.e. without God telling him to)? Benefits include hygiene, less abuse (i.e. masturbation), reduced likelihood of disease, better sexual function, more pleasure for wife. Even if you don't believe the studies, you should accept that there are studies that conclude these things. Its kind of a difficult one to explain for all the guys in a culture to undergo it (even to this day!), without an all-knowing God having commanded it.

You misunderstand; circumcision removes skin responsible for pleasure sensation.

 

[Doctor.Sphinx]

You misunderstand; circumcision removes skin responsible for pleasure sensation.

A common sexual problem for men today (at least according to the media) is premature [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]. According to some studies, circumcision improves sexual function by reducing over sensitivity in males. This in turn translates to improved satisfaction in females.

EURO CIRC - Infos about male circumcision

Other studies are linked below, but essentially, jn addition to improved sexual performance, there is evidence circumcision improves hygiene, reduces abuse, reduces likelihood of disease in men and their wives, is more aesthetically pleasing (and as a result if these benefits, is preferred by more ladies).

Medical Male Circumcision Is Associated With Improvements in Pain During Intercourse and Sexual Satisfaction in Kenya - ScienceDirect
Late cuts: an international look at adult circumcision
The Informed Parent
CircumcisionAmerica-Circumcision and Sexual Function
In Favour of Circumcision

 

[HitchSlap]

A common sexual problem for men today (at least according to the media) is premature [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]. According to some studies, circumcision improves sexual function by reducing over sensitivity in males. This in turn translates to improved satisfaction in females.

LOL... and cutting off your foot can reduce the cost of socks by half.

 

[Doctor.Sphinx]

LOL... and cutting off your foot can reduce the cost of socks by half.

Its a bit different, given that feet always provide an obvious benefit. It sounds as if your tactics are simply to dismiss without consideration fairly plain evidence supporting biblical creation and the Creator's intervention in history. This doesn't really surprise me, but it does show why you will continue to state there is no evidence, even when basic and indisputable evidence is provided.

 

[HitchSlap]

Its a bit different, given that feet always provide an obvious benefit. It sounds as if your tactics are simply to dismiss without consideration fairly plain evidence supporting biblical creation and the Creator's intervention in history. This doesn't really surprise me, but it does show why you will continue to state there is no evidence, even when basic and indisputable evidence is provided.

Evidence of circumcision by ancient cultures is not evidence of a creator or design.

'Yay circumcision... but I'll let you guys figure out that germs, not demons, are responsible for disease on your own.' -god

You haven't really thought this creator/id hypothesis completely through, I'm guessing.

 

[Doctor.Sphinx]

Evidence of circumcision by ancient cultures is not evidence of a creator or design.

'Yay circumcision... but I'll let you guys figure out that germs, not demons, are responsible for disease on your own.' -god

You haven't really thought this creator/id hypothesis completely through, I'm guessing.

So, what would be a bizarre and painful ritual that no one would normally inflict on himself is recorded as being commanded by God in the bible, is still practiced by devotees to this day, has benefits recognised by modern science and medicine, was picked up by a variety of cultures, and on analysis, appears to have been commanded to be performed on the day most appropriate for it, and yet its all a coincidence? I think you're the one who isn't thinking things through.

 

[juvenissun]

Do you write this poorly on purpose?

If you do not understand on any part of what I said, you can simply ask the question.

To this one, the answer is no.

 

[Brightmoon]

Circumcision Reduces abuse? What on earth does that mean?

My two boys were circumcised as infants . I wasn’t asked if I wanted it done or not . I’m still not sure if I would have said to do it or not IF they'd have asked me. Of course this was about 40 years ago.

 

[devolved]

I think you're the one who isn't thinking things through.

You realize that there are plenty of bizarre rituals in plentiful ancient cultures that were supposedly commanded by their gods for them to perform, right?

 

[devolved]

It is almost as if creationists have admitted to themselves, subconsciously, that they cannot actually offer any positive supporting evidence FOR their mere beliefs, and are content to simply attack 'the other.' This is true, whether the creationist is a one-line snark master, or a verbose citation and quote bombing autodidact.

I guess I can speak as an ID-proponent here and say that that evidence is a model-driven concept when you have something to compare the pattern to in terms of what we typically observe as patterns in reality.

Thus, evidence is evaluated against certain "known contexts" that it fits into.

We've seen people kill other people with knives before. We know what the wound looks like. When we see a guy laying with a knife-shaped hole in him, and we see bloody knife next to him... based on previous patterns we conclude that bloody knife and the hole in the body indicate that there's a contextual fit.

That's what evidence is.

In case of the origins of the Universe and life there is nothing we can compare to. What we have are "naked facts", but the hypothesis is what would tie these facts into "evidence" in a sense that evidence in this case is suggested and not derived from comparative observation of nature, which doesn't apply.

Thus, it's very much like String Theory. Both sides may propose a hypothetical model, and how known facts fit into that model, and it's up to any given person to decide which model they see as the best fit.

 

[HitchSlap]

So, what would be a bizarre and painful ritual that no one would normally inflict on himself is recorded as being commanded by God in the bible, is still practiced by devotees to this day, has benefits recognised by modern science and medicine, was picked up by a variety of cultures, and on analysis, appears to have been commanded to be performed on the day most appropriate for it, and yet its all a coincidence? I think you're the one who isn't thinking things through.

How many people a year die from being uncircumcised, vs. how many people died from germs until the discovery of penicillin?

If your god exists, then he's a jerk.

 

[Doctor.Sphinx]

Circumcision Reduces abuse? What on earth does that mean?

Masturbation.

My two boys were circumcised as infants . I wasn’t asked if I wanted it done or not . I’m still not sure if I would have said to do it or not IF they'd have asked me. Of course this was about 40 years ago.

I disagree with this. Parental consent should be given for all medical procedures, irrespective of the perceived risk/severity.

 

[Doctor.Sphinx]

You realize that there are plenty of bizarre rituals in plentiful ancient cultures that were supposedly commanded by their gods for them to perform, right?

Yeah, but what of these was actually found to be healthy for the people, and at the time it was performed? And even going back to the ancient cultures, I'm sure most would even admit (with the descriptions), that the rituals were given by demons (tyrant-like "gods").

 

[pitabread]

Benefits include hygiene, less abuse (i.e. masturbation)

Is this actually true? Is there some study somewhere which details the amount of masturbation people who are circumcised versus those who are not?

 

[Doctor.Sphinx]

How many people a year die from being uncircumcised, vs. how many people died from germs until the discovery of penicillin?

If your god exists, then he's a jerk.

That's not the topic of discussion. You can't change the topic just because the evidence goes against you.

 

[Doctor.Sphinx]

Is this actually true? Is there some study somewhere which details the amount of masturbation people who are circumcised versus those who are not?

Apparently from the links I posted previously. I agree it would be difficult to measure, and I never read how it was actually done.