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Stick insect...re-evolution

judge

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Reaearchers have discovered that on a number of occaisions in the past 300 million years, stick insects have lost thier wings and then re-evolved them. Entomologists have described this revelation as "revolutionary".

From...

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993269

 

This seems to imply that a "program" for wings has remained with the insects all this time.

If it (this "program") was not under selective constraint then how does Neo Darwinian Theory account for this????? :scratch:
 

David Gould

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Originally posted by judge
Reaearchers have discovered that on a number of occaisions in the past 300 million years, stick insects have lost thier wings and then re-evolved them. Entomologists have described this revelation as "revolutionary".

From...

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993269

 

This seems to imply that a "program" for wings has remained with the insects all this time.

If it (this "program") was not under selective constraint then how does Neo Darwinian Theory account for this????? :scratch:

How does it imply that a program for wings remained with the insects all this time, and even if it did what would be the problem for evolutionary theory?

A program for wings evolves in response to environmental pressures. This program can be lost. Then a new one evolves.

See, the problem here is that people think that it is the body that is mutating. It is not - the dna mutates over time and the alterations in the genes change what happens when the genes are expressed - the phenotype is the technical term.

So, genes change over time, altering the phenotype. The phenotype is then affected by selection pressures, which means that either the altered genes remain or dissapear. There is no necessity to keep the gene sequence for flight.

Of course, it is possible that the gene sequence for flight remains in flightless insects but has been turned off - it is no longer expressed in the phenotype. Then later on, something could happen to turn it on again.

Where is the problem?

 

 
 
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food4thought

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Could it be that the original stick insect was created with all the genes in place, even for the wings, and a mutation in the gene responsible for the formation of their wings became dominent in some populations? Could it be that this is not evolution, but the deterioration of their genetic code? Could it be that there has NEVER been a documented case of a mutation that increases the organized information in a genetic code, only mutations that reduce the total organization, or at best reorganize information that was already there?

Naw... that would mean that the evolution never has and never could happen...
 
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David Gould

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Originally posted by food4thought
Could it be that the original stick insect was created with all the genes in place, even for the wings, and a mutation in the gene responsible for the formation of their wings became dominent in some populations? Could it be that this is not evolution, but the deterioration of their genetic code? Could it be that there has NEVER been a documented case of a mutation that increases the organized information in a genetic code, only mutations that reduce the total organization, or at best reorganize information that was already there?

Naw... that would mean that the evolution never has and never could happen...

How can it be deteriation in the genetic code if the ability to fly actually returns? Wouldn't that be deteriation and then regeneration?

Define information; better, define organised information.

Copying errors can add information, and copying errors occur with DNA.

It is like language - sometimes a copying error results in an understandable word.

I would suggest reading up on the way dna errors function. Here is a very good web site - I have directed you straight to the way changes to DNA occurs.

http://www.genetics.com.au/Genetics2003/FactSheets/2a.asp

 
 
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chickenman

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you're all forgetting that genes often have multiple functions - I haven't read the original article becuase for some odd reason I can't get access, but i'd guess that it isn't the actual gene which is being mutated - but its regulatory regions (which decide when and where a gene is expressed)

another explanation is that there was a mutation that reduced its ability to contribute to wing development, but still allowed it to function in some other capacity
 
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Orihalcon

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most likely the genes for wings were still there, or partially there.  however, they simply didn't get expressed (due to some mutation) and therefore didn't grow.  perhaps another mutation caused the genes for wings to be expressed, and those bugs with wings received some kind of survival advantage, and has become the dominant form.
 
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seebs

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Originally posted by food4thought
Could it be that the original stick insect was created with all the genes in place, even for the wings, and a mutation in the gene responsible for the formation of their wings became dominent in some populations?

Theoretically, but it sure doesn't look likely.
 
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judge

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Originally posted by David Gould
How does it imply that a program for wings remained with the insects all this time, and even if it did what would be the problem for evolutionary theory?

A program for wings evolves in response to environmental pressures. This program can be lost. Then a new one evolves.

See, the problem here is that people think that it is the body that is mutating. It is not - the dna mutates over time and the alterations in the genes change what happens when the genes are expressed - the phenotype is the technical term.

So, genes change over time, altering the phenotype. The phenotype is then affected by selection pressures, which means that either the altered genes remain or dissapear. There is no necessity to keep the gene sequence for flight.

Of course, it is possible that the gene sequence for flight remains in flightless insects but has been turned off - it is no longer expressed in the phenotype. Then later on, something could happen to turn it on again.

Where is the problem?

 

 

 

 

Hiya!

Well it is always possible that this organsim lost the genetic program for wings and then regained it I suppose. the curious thing is that they beleive this happened at least four times!!

The other problem is that if the wings dissappeared from the species, then I would imagine that the genes would no longer be under selective constraint!!!

They should get lost, dissappear!!!

Why would they remain in an environment of random mutation and natural selection?

 

Additionally it violates Dollo's law. (for what that's worth) :scratch:  :)
 
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notto

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Originally posted by judge
 

 

Hiya!

Well it is always possible that this organsim lost the genetic program for wings and then regained it I suppose. the curious thing is that they beleive this happened at least four times!!

The other problem is that if the wings dissappeared from the species, then I would imagine that the genes would no longer be under selective constraint!!!

They should get lost, dissappear!!!

Why would they remain in an environment of random mutation and natural selection?

 

Additionally it violates Dollo's law. (for what that's worth) :scratch:  :)

This didn't happen 4 times in succession in one line (lose wings, gain wings, lose wings, gain wings . . .) but happened to 4 different branches of the evolutionary tree coming from a commonwingless stick insect ancester. (Which would mean that Dollo's Law would not be violated) - see the graph in the original story.

Also, the story comments that wing formation may come from the same genes as leg function and therefore would not be selected against. The gene may be tied to something else where there is selective pressure to keep it.
 
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spirituality

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Originally posted by judge
Reaearchers have discovered that on a number of occaisions in the past 300 million years, stick insects have lost thier wings and then re-evolved them. Entomologists have described this revelation as "revolutionary".

From...

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993269

 

This seems to imply that a "program" for wings has remained with the insects all this time.

If it (this "program") was not under selective constraint then how does Neo Darwinian Theory account for this????? :scratch:

Im not a scientist or an expert on this so i dont know what this implies but it is really interesting!
 
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judge

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Originally posted by notto
This didn't happen 4 times in succession in one line (lose wings, gain wings, lose wings, gain wings . . .) but happened to 4 different branches of the evolutionary tree coming from a commonwingless stick insect ancester. (Which would mean that Dollo's Law would not be violated) - see the graph in the original story.

Also, the story comments that wing formation may come from the same genes as leg function and therefore would not be selected against. The gene may be tied to something else where there is selective pressure to keep it.

 

Thanks notto, seems i may have had that bit wrong (re the 4 times).

Are you saying that the same individual gene/s instructing for wings also may have instructed for legs, and that the instructions for wings were repressed only to be derepressed millions of years later?

 

Also (i'm not quite sure how essential 'dollo's law is..and I suspect maybe not very) but even if the wings were lost once and re-emerged once would this still not be a violation?
 
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notto

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Originally posted by judge
 

Thanks notto, seems i may have had that bit wrong (re the 4 times).

Are you saying that the same individual gene/s instructing for wings also may have instructed for legs, and that the instructions for wings were repressed only to be derepressed millions of years later?

 

Also (i'm not quite sure how essential 'dollo's law is..and I suspect maybe not very) but even if the wings were lost once and re-emerged once would this still not be a violation?

The original article commented on the relation of genes for wings and legs in fruit flies. I'm not sure of all of the implications.

Dollo's law would only be violated if the wings emerged again using the same pathways as originally formed. I couldn't tell from the article if this was the case or not in the insects they studies. "Wings" could form different ways or be different structurally but would still be "wings". They may not be caused by the same gene or have the same structure in their second iteration.

I couldn't tell from the article if the orignal wingless common ancestor is thought to have had wings at a time prior. The article isn't real clear on that.
 
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judge

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Originally posted by notto
The original article commented on the relation of genes for wings and legs in fruit flies. I'm not sure of all of the implications.

Dollo's law would only be violated if the wings emerged again using the same pathways as originally formed. I couldn't tell from the article if this was the case or not in the insects they studies. "Wings" could form different ways or be different structurally but would still be "wings". They may not be caused by the same gene or have the same structure in their second iteration.

I couldn't tell from the article if the orignal wingless common ancestor is thought to have had wings at a time prior. The article isn't real clear on that.

 

Notto here is some more information..what do you think?

http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/nature/journal/v421/n6920/full/nature01313_fs.html

 

 

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v421/n6920/fig_tab/nature01313_F3.html
 
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notto

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It seems to be saying that the genetics for wings, many of the physical constructs of wings, and the neurology for wings, are retained over long periods.

"Entomologists have long assumed that re-evolution of wings in apterous lineages was impossible, because functional wings require complex interactions among multiple structures, and the associated genes would be free to accumulate mutations in wingless lineages, effectively blocking the path for any future wing reacquisition. However, this assumption requires that developmental pathways for wing formation are largely independent of pathways required for development of other structures. For instance, in Drosophila and other insects, leg and wing imaginal discs have a common origin from a single group of cells and the developmental pathway for wing determination has been largely co-opted (recruited) from the pathway required for limb formation15, 16. Therefore it is not surprising that the basic genetic instructions for wing formation are conserved in wingless insects, because similar instructions are required to form legs, and probably other critical structures16. Studies of flight motor patterns in flying and non-flying phasmids indicate that the non-flying phasmids have retained the neural structures and basic functional circuitry required for flight, as indicated by flight-specific neural activity in thoracic muscles17, demonstrating that the loss of wings does not correlate with the loss of flight musculature and innervation. Wing development depends on multiple gene systems, transcription factors, secreted proteins, and receptors15, and mutations in any one of these factors may lead to winglessness. Given the multitude of factors involved in wing formation, it seems probable that the specific cause for winglessness will differ from lineage to lineage, but that the basic blueprint for wing formation can remain largely intact, even over large evolutionary time periods."

This would seem to say that the reintroduction of wings is really due to a "switch" and not due to the re-evolution of all of the structures and physiology of wings. If that is the case, it doesn't hold much of a surprise.

Did you know that elephants are loosing their tusks to help them survive dealing with poachers? It will be interesting to see where this goes. If they lose them now, can they gain them back later?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/180301.stm

Let's just hope that the chickens never get their teeth back! That would be to scary.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section2.html#ontogeny_ex6

" During development in reptiles (and mammals), dental enamel forms from epithelial tissue which lines the surface of the gum, while the dentin which makes teeth is produced from a deeper tissue called the mesenchyme. However, in birds, this epithelial layer normally develops instead into the keratinous beak. Kollar and Fisher transplanted a small piece of mammalian mesenchymal tissue (which forms teeth) underneath the beak-forming epithelial layer of a developing chick (Kollar and Fisher 1980). Intriguingly, they observed that the chicken epithelium secreted dental enamel and directed the adjacent mesenchyme to form teeth. This would have been impossible unless the chicken still retained the genes and developmental pathway for making teeth. Thus, chickens have not yet completely lost the genes coding for tooth development."
 
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judge

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Originally posted by notto
,
Let's just hope that the chickens never get their teeth back! That would be to scary.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section2.html#ontogeny_ex6

" During development in reptiles (and mammals), dental enamel forms from epithelial tissue which lines the surface of the gum, while the dentin which makes teeth is produced from a deeper tissue called the mesenchyme. However, in birds, this epithelial layer normally develops instead into the keratinous beak. Kollar and Fisher transplanted a small piece of mammalian mesenchymal tissue (which forms teeth) underneath the beak-forming epithelial layer of a developing chick (Kollar and Fisher 1980). Intriguingly, they observed that the chicken epithelium secreted dental enamel and directed the adjacent mesenchyme to form teeth. This would have been impossible unless the chicken still retained the genes and developmental pathway for making teeth. Thus, chickens have not yet completely lost the genes coding for tooth development."

 

thanks notto...you've just given me an idea for a B-grade horror movie!...(don't worry you'll be in the credits)
 
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David Gould

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Originally posted by judge
 

 

Hiya!

Well it is always possible that this organsim lost the genetic program for wings and then regained it I suppose. the curious thing is that they beleive this happened at least four times!!

The other problem is that if the wings dissappeared from the species, then I would imagine that the genes would no longer be under selective constraint!!!

They should get lost, dissappear!!!

Why would they remain in an environment of random mutation and natural selection?

 

Additionally it violates Dollo's law. (for what that's worth) :scratch:  :)

Um, losing and gaining stuff, whether twice, four time or a hundred times, is not against any predictions of evolutionary theory.

As to the genes no longer being under selective constraint, I am not sure what you mean here.

Genes are never subject to direct selective pressure - the phenotype expressed by genes is. The genes are subject to mutation. If a gene or set of genes for flight was switched off and was no longer expressing a phenotype and these creatures with the gene switched off were able to survive then in addition creatures without that gene would also be able to survive. Thus, any mutation that removed the gene would not damage the creatures ability to survive.

Later on, the creatures without the genes could re-evolve them OR the creatures still with those genes but with them switched off might get them back or have them switched back on.
 
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judge

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david said:

Um, losing and gaining stuff, whether twice, four time or a hundred times, is not against any predictions of evolutionary theory.

Judge:

Very true, however this the authors think they have found something very unusual, their paper says the following..." To our knowledge, this is the first example of a complex feature being lost and later recovered in an evolutionary lineage, and it is possible that the reacquisition of complex features may have an important role in evolutionary diversification.

david:

As to the genes no longer being under selective constraint, I am not sure what you mean here.

Genes are never subject to direct selective pressure - the phenotype expressed by genes is. The genes are subject to mutation. If a gene or set of genes for flight was switched off and was no longer expressing a phenotype and these creatures with the gene switched off were able to survive then in addition creatures without that gene would also be able to survive. Thus, any mutation that removed the gene would not damage the creatures ability to survive.

Judge:

Thank you for the correction :wave:

I suupose what I mean is that if the expression of wings no longer has any influence on the survival of the species then why don't the genes providing the instructions  fall victim to random muatation? 


David:
Later on, the creatures without the genes could re-evolve them OR the creatures still with those genes but with them switched off might get them back or have them switched back on.

 

judge :

Thanks again for the reply..what do you think switches them back on?
 
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