State of the Dead

[Deadworm]

East, consider these 6 points that refute your position on soul sleep:

(1) Nowhere is Hell mentioned in the OT. The KJV sometimes mistranslates "Sheol" as "Hell," but Sheol is NOT a term for postmortem survival.

(2) In fact, the OT knows nothing about postmortem survival until Daniel 12:1-3. You need to recognize progressive revelation in your interpretations.

(3) The NT clearly implies that the dead survive, fully conscious. Jesus tells the dying thief, "Today you will be with me in Paradise" and His Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus implies that, after death, evil people survive fully conscious in Hades. This parable assumes the intertestamental Jewish teaching (e. g. in 1 Enoch) about the possibility of conversations between those trapped in Hades and the righteous.

(4) There is development in Paul's teaching on soul sleep from his earlier to his later epistles in which Paul teaches that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord and that death puts the Christian in a far more satisfying condition than faithful service in this life, though Paul feels that the latter priority trumps personal advantage. Paul's teaching about "soul sleep" must therefore not be taken to imply unconscious postmortem existence.

(5) Peter teaches that after His death, Jesus preaches to "spirits in prison," i.e. to discarnate people who thus have a chance to respond to His preaching.

(6) The Book of Revelation portrays fully conscious deceased martyrs crying out for vindication.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

You do contradict yourself there East, "breath" and "spirit" are the same thing. In OT Hebrew they are both "ruach," and in NT Greek they are both "pneuma."

I was referring to having a separate spirit that lives on after death... but thanx for the clarification.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Matthew 27:50-53
27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
I am just going to assume they didn't go back to there graves as we have Hebrews 12:1 referring to chapter 11.
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses,

These were the first fruits that Christ took to present to His Father... some have supposed that these are the twenty and four elders around the throne in Revelation 4:10,11. If you notice, these 24 cast their crowns showing their redemption through Christ.

As Passover was fulfilled by His sacrifice, then the wave sheaf offering also had to be fulfilled.

 

[Basil the Great]

East, consider these 6 points that refute your position on soul sleep:

(1) Nowhere is Hell mentioned in the OT. The KJV sometimes mistranslates "Sheol" as "Hell," but Sheol is NOT a term for postmortem survival.

(2) In fact, the OT knows nothing about postmortem survival until Daniel 12:1-3. You need to recognize progressive revelation in your interpretations.

(3) The NT clearly implies that the dead survive, fully conscious. Jesus tells the dying thief, "Today you will be with me in Paradise" and His Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus implies that, after death, evil people survive fully conscious in Hades. This parable assumes the intertestamental Jewish teaching (e. g. in 1 Enoch) about the possibility of conversations between those trapped in Hades and the righteous.

(4) There is development in Paul's teaching on soul sleep from his earlier to his later epistles in which Paul teaches that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord and that death puts the Christian in a far more satisfying condition than faithful service in this life, though Paul feels that the latter priority trumps personal advantage. Paul's teaching about "soul sleep" must therefore not be taken to imply unconscious postmortem existence.

(5) Peter teaches that after His death, Jesus preaches to "spirits in prison," i.e. to discarnate people who thus have a chance to respond to His preaching.

(6) The Book of Revelation portrays fully conscious deceased martyrs crying out for vindication.

I believe that some look at Peter's words re: Jesus preaching to the spirits in prison as possible support for the idea of an Intermediate State.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I like to throw this point in during these discussions because I have found that the point being made allows for better discussion.

My reply to "do we go to heaven" or "do we sleep until the resurrection" is "I don't care." And the reason I say that is this... if I close my eyes to this world and open them in heaven, I will see the Lord. And if I die and sleep until the resurrection and then am awakened to see the Lord in the air... then either way when I close my eyes to this life, I open them to see Him in the next. So what difference does it make(?)... the end result is the same!

Ken, the danger is in perception of the dead....

In the "soul sleep" model, any paranormal or medium activity we can immediately know as demonic and not consult with them.

In the "souls are alive in Heaven and can communicate with the living" consulting with these spirit can lead one to wrong thoughts and actions that may have an eternal consequences.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Otherwise our existence would literally be extinguished at death and there would be nothing left to raise to new life.

Don't underestimate GOD. He created all that is by speaking it into existance except man which he formed with his hands froim the dust of the earth..

HE is going to give us new bodies, he knows our every thought and can restore our memories to the new bodies without having anything to start with.. GOD IS AWSOME

 

[Original Happy Camper]

I've honestly died twice and entered into what I call "white space".
I looked down and up and saw no ceiling or floor and my body was invisible.
All the back pain, stomach, and chest pain was gone.
I couldn't even feel my teeth but I knew they were there.
You can't even feel the smallest bit of pain.
Then water came out of my belly and filled my whole body. I could feel the coolness in my feet. (John 7:37-39)
I was dry and wet at the same time.
I could breathe under the water that was covering me and there wasn't any air bubbles.
The temperature out there was completely perfect; not too hot or cold.

I was an invisible water body floating in white space. Then when I came back alive and all the pain of being human came back like the back pain, stomach, and chest. I could feel my teeth again etc.

to read more click the link below.
The Secrets of The Gospel: What happened to me after I died & came back to life.

Ever wonder why there is no book written by Lazarus after all he was dead for three days ans stinketh?

 

[Original Happy Camper]

We (like God) can see the first frame and the credits simultaneously.

Did satan say the same to Eve (like God)
Gen 3
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

 

[Dave-W]

Did satan say the same to Eve (like God)

Not really. the serpent's message was only about good and evil, not time/space.

 

[Ken Rank]

Ken, the danger is in perception of the dead....

In the "soul sleep" model, any paranormal or medium activity we can immediately know as demonic and not consult with them.

In the "souls are alive in Heaven and can communicate with the living" consulting with these spirit can lead one to wrong thoughts and actions that may have an eternal consequences.

I didn't use the term soul sleep, the bible doesn't either. I don't even have the same view of the "soul" that most Christians do. In this case, this is one time where I think the Greek philosophy has entered our way of thinking. When you go back to Adam, God made a body from the ground (body)... then He breathed into that body the breath of life (breath) and once that happened the two BECAME a living soul. Without the body there is no soul, with the breath of life there is no soul... the two together, very clearly in the Hebrew in Genesis, became a living soul.

That said I really have no opinion... I can make both arguments almost equally. If I had to lean toward one I would probably pick being "dead" until the resurrection but again, I can see both points. My own point here was ONLY THAT in either case, once the eyes close to this life, the open in the next to see Him... regardless of which way you lean.

 

[Hillsage]

IMO supported by scripture

Man is a triune being.

1TH 5:23 May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The only thing of man that was made in the 'image of God' was our spirit since "God IS spirit". The other similarity is triunity of our being. And when man was created 'the Father was spirit', the Word was spirit, and the Holy Spirit was spirit. Even to this day the body of Jesus, 'which was sown a physical body' now sits upon the throne as a spiritual body (able to walk through walls).

In Genesis, Gods/Elohim made a body out of 'just created' dust of the earth. In that dirt was a non functioning brain needing the life of a spirit to function. The soul is the functioning brain/psyche (Greek Psuche) making up our mind, will, emotions. A soul that is led of the spirit is a person pursuing "after the likeness of God" and is a 'living soul'. A soul that is led of the flesh, is a dying soul. Adam started out being led of the spirit from the getgo. That's why he was a "living soul". And he remained 'a living soul' as long as he remained "walking in the cool/RUACH/SPIRIT of the day". How deceptive of translators to interpret RUACH as SPIRIT over 200 times....and as "cool" once. What carnal minded interpretation ever justified that?

Upon death, immediately our spirit returns to God from whence it came, just as Paul said, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord....in spirit. Just like when Jesus died on the cross. Into the 'Father's hand I commend MY spirit'. Not the Holy Spirit, but Jesus' spirit, the spirit of Christ. Our body like Jesus' body, goes to the grave but ours becomes the ashes to ashes or dust unto dust from whence it came, the sentence of death for sin...physical death. Jesus' body became glorified.

Spirits don't die, Jesus' spirit didn't die on the cross for our sins. But when it left, Jesus died. When our spirit leaves our body dies and our soul goes to sleep and "knows nothing", only to awake on the day of 'the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body.'



That's my opinion anyway.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

What part of you ascends up to Heaven when you die? When it is that you actually die?

Rev 6
9 The Lamb opened the fifth seal. Then I saw some souls under the altar. They were the souls of those who had been killed because they were faithful to God’s message and to the truth they had received. 10 These souls shouted in a loud voice, “Holy and true Lord, how long until you judge the people of the earth and punish them for killing us?” 11 Then each one of them was given a white robe. They were told to wait a short time longer. There were still some of their brothers and sisters in the service of Christ who must be killed as they were. These souls were told to wait until all the killing was finished.

Isa 14
15 But that did not happen.
You were brought down to the deep pit—Sheol, the place of death.
16 People will come to look at your dead body.
They will think about you and say,
“Is this the same man
who caused great fear in all the kingdoms on earth,
17 who destroyed cities
and turned the land into a desert,
who captured people in war
and would not let them go home?”
18 The kings of other nations lie buried with honor,
each king with his own grave.
19 But you were thrown out of your grave
like a branch cut from a tree and thrown away.
You are like a dead man who fell in battle,
trampled under the feet of other soldiers.
Now you look like any other dead man
wrapped in burial clothes.
20 Other kings have their own graves,
but you will not join them,
because you ruined your own country
and killed your own people.
So your wicked descendants will be stopped.

21 Prepare to kill his children,
because their father is guilty.
His children will never take control of the land.
They will never fill the world with their cities.

22 The Lord All-Powerful said, “I will stand and fight against those people. I will destroy the famous city, Babylon. I will destroy all the people there. I will destroy their children, their grandchildren, and their great-grandchildren.” The Lord himself said this.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

1 Samuel 28:3-25King James Version (KJV)
3 Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had lamented him, and buried him in Ramah, even in his own city. And Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land.

4 And the Philistines gathered themselves together, and came and pitched in Shunem: and Saul gathered all Israel together, and they pitched in Gilboa.

5 And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled.

6 And when Saul enquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.

8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.

9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?

10 And Saul sware to her by the Lord, saying, As the Lord liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.

11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.

12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.

13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

17 And the Lord hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the Lord hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:

18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the Lord, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the Lord done this thing unto thee this day.

19 Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the Lord also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

20 Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night.

21 And the woman came unto Saul, and saw that he was sore troubled, and said unto him, Behold, thine handmaid hath obeyed thy voice, and I have put my life in my hand, and have hearkened unto thy words which thou spakest unto me.

22 Now therefore, I pray thee, hearken thou also unto the voice of thine handmaid, and let me set a morsel of bread before thee; and eat, that thou mayest have strength, when thou goest on thy way.

23 But he refused, and said, I will not eat. But his servants, together with the woman, compelled him; and he hearkened unto their voice. So he arose from the earth, and sat upon the bed.

24 And the woman had a fat calf in the house; and she hasted, and killed it, and took flour, and kneaded it, and did bake unleavened bread thereof:

25 And she brought it before Saul, and before his servants; and they did eat. Then they rose up, and went away that night.

Even thou this below text is not scripture, it shows how those who understood Hebrew understood the text.

Sirach 46:19-20Common English Bible (CEB)
19 Before the time of his eternal sleep,
Samuel testified
before the Lord and his anointed one,
“No property, not even a pair of sandals,
have I taken from anyone!
And not one person accused him.
20 Samuel prophesied
after he had fallen asleep,
and he showed the king
what his end would be.
He made his voice heard from the ground
in prophecy to wipe out
the people’s lawless behavior.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Ever wonder why there is no book written by Lazarus after all he was dead for three days ans stinketh?

Do you think it is possible that Lazarus told whoever wrote the Q source document. ???

 

[ClementofA]

Idaho? Missouri?

 

[Daniel Marsh]

""Deadworm, post: 72121498, member: 387611"]East, consider these 6 points that refute your position on soul sleep:

(1) Nowhere is Hell mentioned in the OT. The KJV sometimes mistranslates "Sheol" as "Hell," but Sheol is NOT a term for postmortem survival.

(2) In fact, the OT knows nothing about postmortem survival until Daniel 12:1-3. You need to recognize progressive revelation in your interpretations.

(3) The NT clearly implies that the dead survive, fully conscious. Jesus tells the dying thief, "Today you will be with me in Paradise" and His Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus implies that, after death, evil people survive fully conscious in Hades. This parable assumes the intertestamental Jewish teaching (e. g. in 1 Enoch) about the possibility of conversations between those trapped in Hades and the righteous.

(4) There is development in Paul's teaching on soul sleep from his earlier to his later epistles in which Paul teaches that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord and that death puts the Christian in a far more satisfying condition than faithful service in this life, though Paul feels that the latter priority trumps personal advantage. Paul's teaching about "soul sleep" must therefore not be taken to imply unconscious postmortem existence.

(5) Peter teaches that after His death, Jesus preaches to "spirits in prison," i.e. to discarnate people who thus have a chance to respond to His preaching.

(6) The Book of Revelation portrays fully conscious deceased martyrs crying out for vindication."

definition of death in Bible is,

James 2:26King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[redleghunter]

In the "soul sleep" model, any paranormal or medium activity we can immediately know as demonic and not consult with them.

In the "souls are alive in Heaven and can communicate with the living" consulting with these spirit can lead one to wrong thoughts and actions that may have an eternal consequences.

Where is the Scriptural substantiation for the above?

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Where is the Scriptural substantiation for the above?

These texts show, that if God allows it, then one can contact a dead person. When God did allow it, it did not turn out good for the contactee.


1 Samuel 28:3-25King James Version (KJV)
3 Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had lamented him, and buried him in Ramah, even in his own city. And Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land.

4 And the Philistines gathered themselves together, and came and pitched in Shunem: and Saul gathered all Israel together, and they pitched in Gilboa.

5 And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled.

6 And when Saul enquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.

8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.

9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?

10 And Saul sware to her by the Lord, saying, As the Lord liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.

11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.

12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.

13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

17 And the Lord hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the Lord hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:

18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the Lord, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the Lord done this thing unto thee this day.

19 Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the Lord also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

20 Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night.

21 And the woman came unto Saul, and saw that he was sore troubled, and said unto him, Behold, thine handmaid hath obeyed thy voice, and I have put my life in my hand, and have hearkened unto thy words which thou spakest unto me.

22 Now therefore, I pray thee, hearken thou also unto the voice of thine handmaid, and let me set a morsel of bread before thee; and eat, that thou mayest have strength, when thou goest on thy way.

23 But he refused, and said, I will not eat. But his servants, together with the woman, compelled him; and he hearkened unto their voice. So he arose from the earth, and sat upon the bed.

24 And the woman had a fat calf in the house; and she hasted, and killed it, and took flour, and kneaded it, and did bake unleavened bread thereof:

25 And she brought it before Saul, and before his servants; and they did eat. Then they rose up, and went away that night.

Even thou this below text is not scripture, it shows how those who understood Hebrew understood the text.

Sirach 46:19-20Common English Bible (CEB)
19 Before the time of his eternal sleep,
Samuel testified
before the Lord and his anointed one,
“No property, not even a pair of sandals,
have I taken from anyone!
And not one person accused him.
20 Samuel prophesied
after he had fallen asleep,
and he showed the king
what his end would be.
He made his voice heard from the ground
in prophecy to wipe out
the people’s lawless behavior.

There is also the transformation or something like that where Jesus spoke with .... I forget whom.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Danger of consulting familiar spirits.

Leviticus 19:31
Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God.


Leviticus 20:6
And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.


Deuteronomy 18:11
Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

2 Kings 21:6
And he made his son pass through the fire, and observed times, and used enchantments, and dealt with familiar spirits and wizards: he wrought much wickedness in the sight of the Lord, to provoke him to anger.


2 Kings 23:24
Moreover the workers with familiar spirits, and the wizards, and the images, and the idols, and all the abominations that were spied in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, did Josiah put away, that he might perform the words of the law which were written in the book that Hilkiah the priest found in the house of the Lord.


Isaiah 8:19
And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?


Isaiah 19:3
And the spirit of Egypt shall fail in the midst thereof; and I will destroy the counsel thereof: and they shall seek to the idols, and to the charmers, and to them that have familiar spirits, and to the wizards.

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6Good News Translation (GNT)
5 Yes, the living know they are going to die, but the dead know nothing. They have no further reward; they are completely forgotten. 6 Their loves, their hates, their passions, all died with them. They will never again take part in anything that happens in this world.

Context of this last verse relates to events under the sun or in the sphere where we live. Those in the grave are cut off from here and thus have no more knowledge of what is going on in our realm. Today, the paradise part of the grave was moved to heaven "under his train" or something like that. Paul was caught up to paradise.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Hebrews 11:32-12:3 Good News Translation (GNT)
32 Should I go on? There isn't enough time for me to speak of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, and the prophets. 33 Through faith they fought whole countries and won. They did what was right and received what God had promised. They shut the mouths of lions, 34 put out fierce fires, escaped being killed by the sword. They were weak, but became strong; they were mighty in battle and defeated the armies of foreigners. 35 Through faith women received their dead relatives raised back to life.

Others, refusing to accept freedom, died under torture in order to be raised to a better life. 36 Some were mocked and whipped, and others were put in chains and taken off to prison. 37 They were stoned, they were sawed in two, they were killed by the sword. They went around clothed in skins of sheep or goats—poor, persecuted, and mistreated. 38 The world was not good enough for them! They wandered like refugees in the deserts and hills, living in caves and holes in the ground.

39 What a record all of these have won by their faith! Yet they did not receive what God had promised, 40 because God had decided on an even better plan for us. His purpose was that only in company with us would they be made perfect.

12 As for us, we have this large crowd of witnesses around us. So then, let us rid ourselves of everything that gets in the way, and of the sin which holds on to us so tightly, and let us run with determination the race that lies before us. 2 Let us keep our eyes fixed on Jesus, on whom our faith depends from beginning to end. He did not give up because of the cross! On the contrary, because of the joy that was waiting for him, he thought nothing of the disgrace of dying on the cross, and he is now seated at the right side of God's throne.

3 Think of what he went through; how he put up with so much hatred from sinners! So do not let yourselves become discouraged and give up.