State of the Dead

redleghunter

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It's such a simple mater I am baffled that you can't understand... we are a living soul, we do not have a soul... the soul is us alive with breath in our nostrils. The Hebrew word for soul is nephesh...look it up.

Jesus made a distinction:

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.(Matthew 10:28)

Funny thing about that... Jesus did not ascend to His Father til after His resurrection... Did Jesus lie to the thief then?

No. Jesus kept His promise.

And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. (Luke 23:46)

The term "sleep" is a metaphor for us returning to the dust of the ground and not having any existence except in the mind of God where we were before we were born. Do you believe our "soul" was alive before we were born? That sounds like Mormanism...

Having a live soul before birth is not supported by Holy Scriptures. Some have argued such philosophically but not my position and again never brought that up.

You still have not answered what happens to the inner man Paul speaks of. He made a clear distinction between the outer body and the inner man.

As a matter of observation you have not touched at all the passages I referenced from 2 Corinthians 5 and Philippians 1.
 
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redleghunter

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Again extra biblical with no evidence... you can't just guess at this stuff, scripture is clear.
Dusting my feet off...
I think he was referring to Luke 16. You posted it in your OP.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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Sorry, I assumed you were familiar with the scriptures in this regard.

John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
No one has ascended into heaven because they were dust and still are... when Christ comes we will be recreated.
 
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Basil the Great

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Based upon what I have read and heard, it seems like most Christians in ages past believed that souls slept until Jesus returned. However, it appears that this view is now a minority and that most Christians today believe that we go to Heaven either immediately upon death or in the case of Catholics, after spending an indefinite amount of time in Purgatory. Actually, Eastern Orthodox seem to take a middle way approach to the subject. They appear to believe that those destined to go to Heaven receive a foretaste of Heaven upon death and those destined for Hell receive a foretaste of Hell, but that souls do not actually go to Heaven or Hell until the Final Judgment.
 
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redleghunter

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To Saul, it appeared like Samuel. To Jacob, he thought he was fighting an adversary but that wasn't the reality, just his perspective which we were given.

I have to agree that the Holy Spirit inspired Scriptures identity the soul as Samuel. The prophecy was 100% accurate and Samuel even says Saul and his sons would be with him after the battle.

While we are speculating, and I think you are, what makes you think Satan would go to all that trouble sending an apparition that looks like Samuel to tell Saul bad news?

That's why I would stick with the Scriptural account.

You still haven't answered if you think a witch can command Heaven? Doesn't it make more sense a witch would be aligned with the demons and their deceptions?

A witch cannot command God. But God can make His purpose and will be made known by His means.

Meaning Saul tried everything legal to get an answer from God and God did not answer. So Saul goes rogue and God gives Saul an answer showing him he cannot escape his will even going to a witch.

God also allowed a deceiving spirit in 1 Kings 22:19-23 to influence Ahab because Ahab refused to inquire through a prophet of God.
 
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redleghunter

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No one has ascended into heaven because they were dust and still are... when Christ comes we will be recreated.
We will be resurrected. This goes back again to the inner man.

The only One to ascend Bodily is Christ Jesus.
 
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redleghunter

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The original greek didn't have any punctuation so the verse can read another way as well which fits the narrative and doesn't make Jesus a liar, bearing false witness to the thief.
Every Verily or Truly I say statements were translated with punctuation. It seems only when it comes to Paradise this day some want to omit the punctuation.

For example, Jesus prefaced His response with the phrase, “I tell you the truth” (“Verily I say unto thee” in the KJV). Many scholars have noticed that Jesus uses this as a prefix phrase when He is about to say something that should be listened to with care. Seventy-six times in the New Testament, Jesus uses the phrase.
 
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prodromos

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Are you not even reading my posts? How could Jesus fulfill His pledge to the thief if He didn't ascend to Heaven til after His resurrection? The original greek didn't have any punctuation so the verse can read another way as well which fits the narrative and doesn't make Jesus a liar, bearing false witness to the thief.
I'll break it down even better... did the thief go to Heaven the day he died? Jesus didn't... reconcile that and don't hide behind some, "it's not clear or revealed but that just how I read it" mantra... if it doen't make sense it's not right.
The thief went to paradise, not heaven.
 
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Buzz_B

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East - you make a mistake in assuming that time for the dead and for us living is the same or runs parallel.

God's realm is entirely outside of our time/space existence and as such, I may arrive in HIS presence (in GOD's realm) the exact same second as Able, even though we died thousands of years differently. (according to OUR time stream)
Good point about the time perception but it wouldn't really matter to the dead how long they had to lay asleep for to them, even if they laid there a million years, when resurrected it would seem to them as they had just closed their eyes and immediately opened them again. For they have no sense of time.
 
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Dave-W

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Dave-W

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Good point about the time perception but it wouldn't really matter to the dead how long they had to lay asleep for to them, even if they laid there a million years, when resurrected it would seem to them as they had just closed their eyes and immediately opened them again. For they have no sense of time.
Assume you have a reel of film for some movie, and people die in this movie from frame 1 until the credits.

If you hold that reel in your hand and the "soul" of the guy that dies in frame 1 and the "soul" of the guy next to the credits drops out of the reel at the same time, does the guy in frame 1 have to "sleep" for the entire movie to get his soul to drop out? No. We (like God) can see the first frame and the credits simultaneously.

The question ASSUMES that everyone has to go frame by frame to arrive at some point simultaneously. Not so.
 
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Ken Rank

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I like to throw this point in during these discussions because I have found that the point being made allows for better discussion.

My reply to "do we go to heaven" or "do we sleep until the resurrection" is "I don't care." :) And the reason I say that is this... if I close my eyes to this world and open them in heaven, I will see the Lord. And if I die and sleep until the resurrection and then am awakened to see the Lord in the air... then either way when I close my eyes to this life, I open them to see Him in the next. So what difference does it make(?)... the end result is the same!
 
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Hawkins

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Are you not even reading my posts? How could Jesus fulfill His pledge to the thief if He didn't ascend to Heaven til after His resurrection? The original greek didn't have any punctuation so the verse can read another way as well which fits the narrative and doesn't make Jesus a liar, bearing false witness to the thief.
I'll break it down even better... did the thief go to Heaven the day he died? Jesus didn't... reconcile that and don't hide behind some, "it's not clear or revealed but that just how I read it" mantra... if it doen't make sense it's not right.

Paradise refers to spiritual places where human souls are held after death. There are at least 2 (or more) places where souls are held. One is in the third heaven where Paul was brought to. It's commonly referred to as "Abraham's Bosom". The souls of chosen saints and witnesses such as Moses and Elijah were brought there to continue to do witnessing for God.

That's why Jesus met with Moses and Elijah in there spiritual form. Souls by default however are invisible, our body is referred to as our image which is for humans to reckon each other visually.

Hades is another place holding human souls. It is the main place for almost everyone. We go there naturally after death. Lazarus needs to be carried by an angel to Abraham's Bosom because Abraham's Bosom is not the default place to go. Hades is for everyone to descend to after death.

To believers (God's people), Hades is a resting place for us to enter. God however ever said the oath that "they can never enter my rest". There will be no rest for the unbelievers there. Believers will be put to a sleep, but not the wicked souls.

Samuel was summoned from his sleep in Hades but later possibly entered Abraham's Bosom (a place for the saved and awaken). God somehow made used of that event for Samuel to deliver the message to Saul. Even the witch was surprised and scared by the event. The event was not what she expected and intended.

When putting to a sleep we don't feel time. So it's like we die this moment, the resurrection and judgment will come the next moment.

In the book of Revelation the temple, which is the heavenly tabernacle, is representative of the Heaven we are talking about. It is the dwelling place of God. The second curtain which blocking the way from humans to reach this temple is now open after Jesus' death. It's a sign of reconciliation between God and man. However, no human (other Jesus of course) can enter the temple yet.

Revelation 15:8 (KJV)
And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.
 
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redleghunter

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Based upon what I have read and heard, it seems like most Christians in ages past believed that souls slept until Jesus returned.

Which would be a much different understanding than the 'soul sleep' of the JW and SDA understanding.

However, it appears that this view is now a minority and that most Christians today believe that we go to Heaven either immediately upon death or in the case of Catholics, after spending an indefinite amount of time in Purgatory. Actually, Eastern Orthodox seem to take a middle way approach to the subject. They appear to believe that those destined to go to Heaven receive a foretaste of Heaven upon death and those destined for Hell receive a foretaste of Hell, but that souls do not actually go to Heaven or Hell until the Final Judgment.

Bolded above:

Which would be in line with Jesus' teaching in Luke 16 of Lazarus and the rich man.
 
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redleghunter

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My reply to "do we go to heaven" or "do we sleep until the resurrection" is "I don't care." :) And the reason I say that is this... if I close my eyes to this world and open them in heaven, I will see the Lord. And if I die and sleep until the resurrection and then am awakened to see the Lord in the air... then either way when I close my eyes to this life, I open them to see Him in the next. So what difference does it make(?)... the end result is the same!
As I mentioned in previous posts, yes, our eyes should be fixed on the resurrection and our glorified bodies, by God's Grace.
 
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Dave-W

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We are only body and breath, so I would agree with you. We are not also spirit as some imagine....
You do contradict yourself there East, "breath" and "spirit" are the same thing. In OT Hebrew they are both "ruach," and in NT Greek they are both "pneuma."

There are many verses that speak to human spirits, both redeemed and not.

Numbers 16:22
But they fell on their faces and said, “O God, God of the spirits of all flesh, when one man sins, will You be angry with the entire congregation?”

Numbers 27:16
“May the Lord, the God of the spirits of all flesh, appoint a man over the congregation,

1 Chronicles 5:26
So the God of Israel stirred up the spirit of Pul, king of Assyria, even the spirit of Tilgath-pilneser king of Assyria, and he carried them away into exile, namely the Reubenites, the Gadites and the half-tribe of Manasseh, and brought them to Halah, Habor, Hara and to the river of Gozan, to this day.

Job 32:8
“But it is a spirit in man, And the breath of the Almighty gives them understanding.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.
 
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Doug Melven

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And where does scripture tell us that is? And why do you assume the dead were treated different before Christ or after? Can you cite a passage for me please? Again, more extra biblical reasoning to make your narrative fit.
Matthew 27:50-53
27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

I am just going to assume they didn't go back to there graves as we have Hebrews 12:1 referring to chapter 11.
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses,
 
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