State of the Dead

[EastCoastRemnant]

Revelation 6:

Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

No question they were killed (meaning their bodies). There is real death and destruction observed in the entire chapter. Why would these saints who John indicates were killed already for their testimony be a symbol. The burden of proof is on you to indicate what the symbol actually indicates other than to wave off the entire passage.

Never questioned their state of health...

When Jesus gave us the parable of the wedding garment, he wasn't referring to a historical event but a symbol of God's people during the judgement of the "saved" (righteous). The wedding garment they were given was Christ's righteousness just as in this metaphor, the dead in Christ being symbolically given Christ's robe of Righteousness and then told to rest a little longer. It was instructive to those reading the text, especially in the dark ages when multitudes of Christians were losing their lives for their faith and might wonder if this persecution would ever end. This metaphor comforted the despairing saints during those times and continues to comfort us knowing that God will avenge them.

 

[redleghunter]

So you believe Jesus had to call Lazarus down from the presence of God in Heaven, back to this sinful world? Why would Jesus do that? What about Jairus' daughter, was she plucked from the peaceful presence of God to come back to suffer a life of trial?

Lazarus went where righteous souls went before Jesus's ascension into Heaven. You posted the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. Perhaps the same was the case for Lazarus. Luke does not detail such. Nor do the Gospel writers mention the status of the young daughter. I'm not speculating or making an argument from speculation. I offered you the exact words of Jesus and His apostle Paul. Try addressing what I wrote instead of attributing speculation to me.

That's some twisted doctrine dude.

I actually presented the words of Christ and Paul.

True doctrine doesn't mar the character of God but shows His infinite Mercy and Love.

Paul was not marring the character of God. Please address what I presented.

That's why Jesus taught the merciful state of soul sleep..

Where did Jesus teach souls would be exactly? He promised the man dying next to Him would be in Paradise with Him that very day.

If you believe in soul sleep then where is this resting place?

. I presented the evidence straight from our Saviours mouth, you give me Pauline ambiguity...

I didn't know SDA denied the Pauline epistles as authoritative. I'll have to remember that and is probably why you did not address what I posted. If you let me know what your canon looks like, it would help me dialogue with you.

On the last note, Jesus did not teach soul sleep. The only quote in your OP from Jesus was your quote of Luke 16 and the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. Which supports the passages I presented from 2 Corinthians 5 and Philippians 1.

Remember as believers our eyes are fixed on our bodily incorruptible resurrection. We know bits and pieces of the "intermediary" state other than we will be in His presence.

As we have intimacy with Christ in our daily walk with prayer and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, I think Paul shows we will also have the same intimacy with Christ while we await our resurrected incorruptible bodies. I don't think our "inner person" will be worm food.

 

[redleghunter]

merciful state of soul sleep....

Please explain this "state." If I remember the JW version of soul sleep our bodies equal our soul and when we stop breathing we cease living both bodily and spiritually. Is it the same for SDA? Or is it more a comatose type state where there is no consciousness including not even knowing the presence of Christ?

 

[redleghunter]

Never questioned their state of health...

When Jesus gave us the parable of the wedding garment, he wasn't referring to a historical event but a symbol of God's people during the judgement of the "saved" (righteous). The wedding garment they were given was Christ's righteousness just as in this metaphor, the dead in Christ being symbolically given Christ's robe of Righteousness and then told to rest a little longer. It was instructive to those reading the text, especially in the dark ages when multitudes of Christians were losing their lives for their faith and might wonder if this persecution would ever end. This metaphor comforted the despairing saints during those times and continues to comfort us knowing that God will avenge them.

Yes but the portion of Revelation was not a parable but a vision. What exactly would souls of martyrs symbolize in Heaven?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Samuel wasn't inanimate when he was called up in 1 Samuel 28.

You believe a witch can summons someone from Heaven? The witch was divining spirits and called up a demon which impersonated Saul. There's a reason God forbade us such things...

Leviticus 19:31
Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God.

 

[SeventyOne]

You believe a witch can summons someone from Heaven? The witch was divining spirits and called up a demon which impersonated Saul. There's a reason God forbade us such things...

Leviticus 19:31
Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God.

Well, the spirit speaks the words of the Lord then gives a prophecy that comes to pass the next day. Only the Lord can have such foreknowledge.

Then...
1 Samuel 28:20 Then Saul fell at once full length on the ground, filled with fear because of the words of Samuel. And there was no strength in him, for he had eaten nothing all day and all night.

Scripture says plainly it was Samuel. I'll go with that.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Please explain this "state." If I remember the JW version of soul sleep our bodies equal our soul and when we stop breathing we cease living both bodily and spiritually. Is it the same for SDA? Or is it more a comatose type state where there is no consciousness including not even knowing the presence of Christ?

The Bible is clear what the constituents of life are

Genesis 2:7

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

It is not beyond the realm of understanding that the opposite is also true... life - breath = dust

The examples you gave of your understanding of the JW position and the SDA's were the same but for the sake of conversation, yes that is what I believe because it fits the 24+ verses that talk about death being sleep and doesn't have to imagine extra biblical steps such as only our spirit goes on but not our bodies that Jesus comes back to get even though they are empty shells. Sounds like some twistin going on to make it all fit.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Lazarus went where righteous souls went before Jesus's ascension into Heaven.

And where does scripture tell us that is? And why do you assume the dead were treated different before Christ or after? Can you cite a passage for me please? Again, more extra biblical reasoning to make your narrative fit.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Yes but the portion of Revelation was not a parable but a vision.

Both deal in symbols...

What exactly would souls of martyrs symbolize in Heaven?

Goading much?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Well, the spirit speaks the words of the Lord then gives a prophecy that comes to pass the next day. Only the Lord can have such foreknowledge.

Thanx to the testimony of Job, we know that God permits satan to take life.

Scripture says plainly it was Samuel. I'll go with that.

So you are standing on Heavenly record that you believe a witch can conjure a person from Heaven?

 

[SeventyOne]

Thanx to the testimony of Job, we know that God permits satan to take life.



So you are standing on Heavenly record that you believe a witch can conjure a person from Heaven?

I'm standing on record that scripture states the spirit was Samuel who spoke fulfilled prophecy to Saul. I have no way to know if such an event was ever repeated, as scripture doesn't tell me that.

Are you "standing on Heavenly record" that you believe the scriptures are in error when it identifies the spirit as Samuel?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Lazarus went where righteous souls went before Jesus's ascension into Heaven. You posted the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. Perhaps the same was the case for Lazarus. Luke does not detail such. Nor do the Gospel writers mention the status of the young daughter. I'm not speculating or making an argument from speculation. I offered you the exact words of Jesus and His apostle Paul. Try addressing what I wrote instead of attributing speculation to me.

If you don't have a clear understanding of the subject we are discussing, are you just arguing for arguments sake?

Where did Jesus teach souls would be exactly?

It's such a simple mater I am baffled that you can't understand... we are a living soul, we do not have a soul... the soul is us alive with breath in our nostrils. The Hebrew word for soul is nephesh...look it up.

He promised the man dying next to Him would be in Paradise with Him that very day.

Funny thing about that... Jesus did not ascend to His Father til after His resurrection... Did Jesus lie to the thief then?

If you believe in soul sleep then where is this resting place?

The term "sleep" is a metaphor for us returning to the dust of the ground and not having any existence except in the mind of God where we were before we were born. Do you believe our "soul" was alive before we were born? That sounds like Mormanism...

 

[redleghunter]

The Bible is clear what the constituents of life are

Genesis 2:7

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

It is not beyond the realm of understanding that the opposite is also true... life - breath = dust

The examples you gave of your understanding of the JW position and the SDA's were the same but for the sake of conversation, yes that is what I believe because it fits the 24+ verses that talk about death being sleep and doesn't have to imagine extra biblical steps such as only our spirit goes on but not our bodies that Jesus comes back to get even though they are empty shells. Sounds like some twistin going on to make it all fit.

You did give a lot of verses which were plucked from various portions of the OT. That's fine but did not provide the exegesis behind each. Using your approach I can provide one verse which sheds light on all 24 you posted:

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.(Ecclesiastes 12:7)

I'm sure you believe the Holy Scriptures are a progressive revelation. We get more fidelity, sharpness as we progress to and through the NT. We get an insight from Christ of where souls go in Luke 16. And we get a personal account of Paul who is coming to the end of his life (2 Corinthians 5 and Philippians 1).

For example, Aaron and Moses were to be gathered to their fathers. Meaning the patriarchs. Remember Jesus saying YHWH is the God of the living not the dead.

For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him. (Luke 20:38).


Which brings us back to the "inner man" or person. What happens to the inner man when it awaits the resurrection.

Paul simply answers absent from the body (what's absent) present with the Lord.

Again brother I make the point that our eyes are to be fixed on our glorified bodies at the Resurrection.

 

[redleghunter]

And where does scripture tell us that is? And why do you assume the dead were treated different before Christ or after? Can you cite a passage for me please? Again, more extra biblical reasoning to make your narrative fit.

It's not extra Biblical. Jesus told the man who was dying next to Him that he would be in Paradise that day with Him.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I'm standing on record that scripture states the spirit was Samuel who spoke fulfilled prophecy to Saul. I have no way to know if such an event was ever repeated, as scripture doesn't tell me that.

Are you "standing on Heavenly record" that you believe the scriptures are in error when it identifies the spirit as Samuel?

To Saul, it appeared like Samuel. To Jacob, he thought he was fighting an adversary but that wasn't the reality, just his perspective which we were given.

You still haven't answered if you think a witch can command Heaven? Doesn't it make more sense a witch would be aligned with the demons and their deceptions?

 

[SeventyOne]

To Saul, it appeared like Samuel. To Jacob, he thought he was fighting an adversary but that wasn't the reality, just his perspective which we were given.

You still haven't answered if you think a witch can command Heaven? Doesn't it make more sense a witch would be aligned with the demons and their deceptions?

I answered your question sufficiently. Besides, no reason to think Samuel was in Heaven since when Jesus came He stated that no man had been to Heaven yet, except for Himself. The pre-Jesus dead went somewhere else first.

More importantly, the scriptures don't say that Saul thought it was Samuel. It states that it was Samuel. Huge difference. I'll go with you thinking scripture was in error since you keep dancing around it like a man on fire.

 

[redleghunter]

Both deal in symbols...



Goading much?

Bro it was not a goad. If you deem that specific observation of John as a symbol, please show me your reasoning.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

It's not extra Biblical. Jesus told the man who was dying next to Him that he would be in Paradise that day with Him.

Are you not even reading my posts? How could Jesus fulfill His pledge to the thief if He didn't ascend to Heaven til after His resurrection? The original greek didn't have any punctuation so the verse can read another way as well which fits the narrative and doesn't make Jesus a liar, bearing false witness to the thief.
I'll break it down even better... did the thief go to Heaven the day he died? Jesus didn't... reconcile that and don't hide behind some, "it's not clear or revealed but that just how I read it" mantra... if it doen't make sense it's not right.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

The pre-Jesus dead went somewhere else first.

Again extra biblical with no evidence... you can't just guess at this stuff, scripture is clear.
Dusting my feet off...

 

[SeventyOne]

Again extra biblical with no evidence... you can't just guess at this stuff, scripture is clear.
Dusting my feet off...

Sorry, I assumed you were familiar with the scriptures in this regard.

John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.