State of Israel

[Inkfingers]

Israel is Israel! How in the world do the passages that make it clear that God will restore Israel, slip by?

And yet the State of Israel has neither temple nor conversion to Christianity.

It is a secular State under the secular humanist United Nations which itself bears an uncomfortable similarity to the Beast from the sea of Revelation 13...and that same UN claims dominion over Jerusalem.

 

[Grip Docility]

And yet the State of Israel has neither temple nor conversion to Christianity.

It is a secular State under the secular humanist United Nations which itself bears an uncomfortable similarity to the Beast from the sea of Revelation 13...and that same UN claims dominion over Jerusalem.

Your points are well noted and have thrust to them.

Wouldn’t you agree that Human Wellfare is never “Secular”?

Honestly, the UN’s Humanism is pick, choose and hit or miss.

The people Islam Hates and kill are predominantly Loved in Israel. Also, there are many Messianic Jews in Israel and Christians, as well.

I guess the world could take the stance of this picture.

 

[Davy]

Israel is Israel! How in the world do the passages that make it clear that God will restore Israel, slip by?

Israel isn’t the problem here and the idea that God has no hand in Israel as things go forward is far from scripture.

From Exodus to Now, the Jews have been part of God’s plan.

I’m getting jacked up on Mountain Dew.

I better chill.

Jesus said to the Jews in Jerusalem:

Matt 23:37-38
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
KJV


It is ignorance to even begin... to think that the establishing of the nation state of Israel in 1947 is anywhere close... to Bible prophecy about God's promised restoration of His Israel.

One thing I will never... fall for, and that is with thinking today's state of Israel represents God's true Israel which is only about believers on Jesus of Nazareth, The Christ!

Like God said in 1 Kings 11, He promised He would always leave a remnant of one tribe at Jerusalem for the sake of His servant David, and for the sake of Jerusalem. That He has done. There still is NO KING there of the house of David, God's Birthright is still... not there in Jerusalem today, even the U.N. controls over the land reveals that.

And the coming spurious Messiah shows up there, setting up old covenant worship again with sacrifices, and claiming to be God, I won't be falling for that Tom-foolery either. That will show Jesus' words there in Matt.23:38 being all the more true.

 

[Grip Docility]

Jesus said to the Jews in Jerusalem:

Matt 23:37-38
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
KJV


It is ignorance to even begin... to think that the establishing of the nation state of Israel in 1947 is anywhere close... to Bible prophecy about God's promised restoration of His Israel.

One thing I will never... fall for, and that is with thinking today's state of Israel represents God's true Israel which is only about believers on Jesus of Nazareth, The Christ!

Like God said in 1 Kings 11, He promised He would always leave a remnant of one tribe at Jerusalem for the sake of His servant David, and for the sake of Jerusalem. That He has done. There still is NO KING there of the house of David, God's Birthright is still... not there in Jerusalem today, even the U.N. controls over the land reveals that.

And the coming spurious Messiah shows up there, setting up old covenant worship again with sacrifices, and claiming to be God, I won't be falling for that Tom-foolery either. That will show Jesus' words there in Matt.23:38 being all the more true.

You forgot Zechariah 14, Joel 3 and what Jesus said, after the verse you quoted.

“Matthew 23:39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”

Any reason for that?

 

[TribulationSigns]

Christ was talking about the fall of Old Testament congregation of Israel which is the temple of His Body.

John 2:18-21
[18] Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
[19] Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
[20] Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
[21] But he spake of the temple of his body.

The Jews were the body of God's congregation and they are the very people who have rejected the Messiah the Prince who has come and destroyed the city and the temple as Daniel predicted in Dan 9:26.

But Christ said that He would rebuild the temple in 3 days. So what temple is this, really? Why of course it is the New Testament Congregation of Israel, the Church, where the Gentiles can come in. Not a physical temple you are looking for in the Middle East!

Now read John 2:18-21 above again, God says it is "His People", the Jews, who practiced the abominations in His house, and it is "His People" that will fall down with not one left as a stone in that building. It is Christ who is the New building, the cornerstone of their Temple that was rejected is become head of the corner anyway, and the restoration of stones from every nation. Not physical stones of the temple that you are looking for in the Middle East. It is the Holy Temple is reestablished in the nations, as the judgment of Jews, His People, is that the Kingdom has been taken from them and given to another, the Church! God's words, not mine. Not the words of Josephus, Calvin or John Walvoord, but God's inerrant word of truth and interpretation.

Matthew 21:42-43
[42] Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
[43] Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

 

[Grip Docility]

Christ was talking about the fall of Old Testament congregation of Israel which is the temple of His Body.

John 2:18-21
[18] Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
[19] Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
[20] Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
[21] But he spake of the temple of his body.

The Jews were the body of God's congregation and they are the very people who have rejected the Messiah the Prince who has come and destroyed the city and the temple as Daniel predicted in Dan 9:26.

But Christ said that He would rebuild the temple in 3 days. So what time is this, really? Why of course it is the New Testament Congregation of Israel, the Church, where the Gentiles can come in. Not a physical temple you are looking for in the Middle East!

Now read John 2:18-21 above again, God says it is "His People", the Jews, who practiced the abominations in His house, and it is "His People" that will fall down with not one left as a stone in that building. It is Christ who is the New building, the corner stone of their Temple that was rejected is become head of the corner anyway, and the restoration of stones from every nation. Not physical stones of the temple that you are looking for in the Middle East. It is the Holy Temple is reestablished in the nations, as the judgment of Jews, His People, is that the Kingdom has been taken from them and given to another, the Church! God's words, not mine. Not the words of Josephus, Calvin or John Walvoord, but God's inerrant word of truth and interpretation.

Matthew 21:42-43
[42] Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
[43] Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Ironically, I’m partially dispensational and that factors right in with Romans 11.

Your spiritual eye for scripture is good and I’m not sure if you subscribe to (Supersession) theology (I’m opposed to it), but I will say that your reading of this passage and your emboldening is well done and accurate.

You even understand the “Body of Moses”. (Jude 1:9, that partially rejected their true King). Obviously, even the New Testament was predominantly penned by Jews that accepted Jesus.

I don’t care where we stand in notice of all the rest, this is a jam up post.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Your spiritual eye for scripture is good and I’m not sure if you subscribe to (Supersession) theology (I’m opposed to it), but I will say that your reading of this passage and your emboldening is well done and accurate.

I don't like such labels, but honestly, "What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet." I think so. You can call it whatever you like, but the message that God's word puts forth will still shine through to any objective reader.

Mrk 11:13-14

• "And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.
• And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it."

Mark 11:20-21

• "And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.
• And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away."

Matthew 21:42-44

• "Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
• Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
• And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder."

You can call it whatever you want, but the message God gives is clear. God's visible Kingdom or congregation upon earth up to this time was represented by the nation of Israel. But Christ is now making it clear that that kingdom of God representation shall be taken from the Old Testament Congregation, the nation of Israel and given to a nation that will bring forth the fruits thereof. Namely, the New Testament Congregation that is the church would now hold that distinction. And let's be clear, these words are neither polysemous, subtle, abstruse or difficult. They're not subject to private interpretations or out of context revisions. The Messiah and Kingdom of Israel that prophesy foretold was rejected by His Own People, the Jews, and therefore they were cursed with blindness (in part) to never bear fruit as a nation again, as they would no longer be the representatives of God's Kingdom on earth. Christ clearly taught that the Kingdom has been taken from them, and given to the church, who will bring forth the fruit of the Spirit, rather than the flesh. Jesus Christ, of course, reveals as the foundation stone of this restoration of the Kingdom of Christ. Again, use whatever word you choose, call it whatever you want, the Biblical facts of Scripture are without ambiguity concerning their judgment, what that concerned, and who are the children of God and who are not. For example, anyone who rejects Christ, by definition cannot be the children of the Kingdom.

Acts 4:10-12

• "Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
• This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
• Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

Israel cannot be saved by still rejecting Christ, cannot be the kingdom, cannot be the children of God or the election. Neither is their salvation in any other person, place or thing. There is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved. So while someone talks about "a miracle of the birth of a nation" that they also say could never have been un-birthed or not a nation in the first place, the Bible says differently. Biblical facts, versus visions and delusions of grandeur. You can call it Supersessionism, You can call it Restoration Theology, you can call it Replacement Theology, you can call it Antisemitism, but God calls it Biblical fact.

Selah.

 

[Grip Docility]

I don't like such labels, but honestly, "What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet." I think so. You can call it whatever you like, but the message that God's word puts forth will still shine through to any objective reader.

Mrk 11:13-14

• "And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.
• And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it."

Mark 11:20-21

• "And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.
• And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away."

Matthew 21:42-44

• "Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
• Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
• And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder."

You can call it whatever you want, but the message God gives is clear. God's visible Kingdom or congregation upon earth up to this time was represented by the nation of Israel. But Christ is now making it clear that that kingdom of God representation shall be taken from the Old Testament Congregation, the nation of Israel and given to a nation that will bring forth the fruits thereof. Namely, the New Testament Congregation that is the church would now hold that distinction. And let's be clear, these words are neither polysemous, subtle, abstruse or difficult. They're not subject to private interpretations or out of context revisions. The Messiah and Kingdom of Israel that prophesy foretold was rejected by His Own People, the Jews, and therefore they were cursed with blindness (in part) to never bear fruit as a nation again, as they would no longer be the representatives of God's Kingdom on earth. Christ clearly taught that the Kingdom has been taken from them, and given to the church, who will bring forth the fruit of the Spirit, rather than the flesh. Jesus Christ, of course, reveals as the foundation stone of this restoration of the Kingdom of Christ. Again, use whatever word you choose, call it whatever you want, the Biblical facts of Scripture are without ambiguity concerning their judgment, what that concerned, and who are the children of God and who are not. For example, anyone who rejects Christ, by definition cannot be the children of the Kingdom.

Acts 4:10-12

• "Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
• This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
• Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

Israel cannot be saved by still rejecting Christ, cannot be the kingdom, cannot be the children of God or the election. Neither is their salvation in any other person, place or thing. There is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved. So while someone talks about "a miracle of the birth of a nation" that they also say could never have been un-birthed or not a nation in the first place, the Bible says differently. Biblical facts, versus visions and delusions of grandeur. You can call it Supersessionism, You can call it Restoration Theology, you can call it Replacement Theology, you can call it Antisemitism, but God calls it Biblical fact.

Selah.

Peace to you. That is the full deal, yet it interestingly enough dovetails into the “regrafting” mentioned in Romans 11 that pertains to the “Enemy of the Gospel” Jews.

@Inkfingers , please warn me if this is off topic and useless to your wonderful thread, on my part.

Selah

 

[AlexDTX]

I don’t know about the timeline, but there will be a false Messiah before the real Messiah Returns and absolutely, Israel will be front and center.

Two structures already exist on the Temple Mount that seem awful telling of how it might go down.

That false Messiah will be created by Israel themselves. Consider what this declaration on the Messiah:

PROTOCOL No. 24
1. I pass now to the method of confirming the dynastic roots of King David to the last strata of the earth.

2. This confirmation will first and foremost be included in that which to this day has rested the force of conservatism by our learned elders of the conduct of the affairs of the world, in the directing of the education of thought of all humanity.

3. Certain members of the seed of David will prepare the kings and their heirs, selecting not by right of heritage but by eminent capacities, inducting them into the most secret mysteries of the political, into schemes of government, but providing always that none may come to knowledge of the secrets. The object of this mode of action is that all may know that government cannot be entrusted to those who have not been inducted into the secret places of its art ....

5. Direct heirs will often be set aside from ascending the throne if in their time of training they exhibit frivolity, softness and other qualities that are the ruin of authority, which render them incapable of governing and in themselves dangerous for kingly office.

6. Only those who are unconditionally capable for firm, even if it be to cruelty, direct rule will receive the reins of rule from our learned elders.

9. Only the king and the three who stood sponsor for him will know what is coming.

10. In the person of the king who with unbending will is master of himself and of humanity all will discern as it were fate with its mysterious ways. None will know what the king wishes to attain by his dispositions, and therefore none will dare to stand across an unknown path.

14. The king of the Jews must not be at the mercy of his passions, and especially of sensuality: on no side of his character must he give brute instincts power over his mind. Sensuality worse than all else disorganizes the capacities of the mind and clearness of views, distracting the thoughts to the worst and most brutal side of human activity.

15. The prop of humanity in the person of the supreme lord of all the world of the holy seed of David must sacrifice to his people all personal inclinations.

The document is refuted by the Jews as a hoax and a fraud. Nonetheless, someone has put some thought into how to make their own Messiah.

 

[Grip Docility]

That false Messiah will be created by Israel themselves. Consider what this declaration on the Messiah:

PROTOCOL No. 24
1. I pass now to the method of confirming the dynastic roots of King David to the last strata of the earth.

2. This confirmation will first and foremost be included in that which to this day has rested the force of conservatism by our learned elders of the conduct of the affairs of the world, in the directing of the education of thought of all humanity.

3. Certain members of the seed of David will prepare the kings and their heirs, selecting not by right of heritage but by eminent capacities, inducting them into the most secret mysteries of the political, into schemes of government, but providing always that none may come to knowledge of the secrets. The object of this mode of action is that all may know that government cannot be entrusted to those who have not been inducted into the secret places of its art ....

5. Direct heirs will often be set aside from ascending the throne if in their time of training they exhibit frivolity, softness and other qualities that are the ruin of authority, which render them incapable of governing and in themselves dangerous for kingly office.

6. Only those who are unconditionally capable for firm, even if it be to cruelty, direct rule will receive the reins of rule from our learned elders.

9. Only the king and the three who stood sponsor for him will know what is coming.

10. In the person of the king who with unbending will is master of himself and of humanity all will discern as it were fate with its mysterious ways. None will know what the king wishes to attain by his dispositions, and therefore none will dare to stand across an unknown path.

14. The king of the Jews must not be at the mercy of his passions, and especially of sensuality: on no side of his character must he give brute instincts power over his mind. Sensuality worse than all else disorganizes the capacities of the mind and clearness of views, distracting the thoughts to the worst and most brutal side of human activity.

15. The prop of humanity in the person of the supreme lord of all the world of the holy seed of David must sacrifice to his people all personal inclinations.

The document is refuted by the Jews as a hoax and a fraud. Nonetheless, someone has put some thought into how to make their own Messiah.

Have you considered Islam? The third Abrahamic faith?

Do you know their eschatology?

 

[AlexDTX]

Have you considered Islam? The third Abrahamic faith?

Do you know their eschatology?

Islam is not the third Abrahamic faith, nor is Judaism the second. Abraham had one faith and Christ pointed to that faith. Paul echoed it. What you mean are faiths that different descendants of Abraham have created.

 

[Grip Docility]

Islam is not the third Abrahamic faith, nor is Judaism the second. Abraham had one faith and Christ pointed to that faith. Paul echoed it. What you mean are faiths that different descendants of Abraham have created.

All three faiths, Christianity, Judaism and Islam hinge on Abraham.

This is in the religious books.

Yes, indeed they fall that way.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Peace to you. That is the full deal, yet it interestingly enough dovetails into the “regrafting” mentioned in Romans 11 that pertains to the “Enemy of the Gospel” Jews.

Paul was not talking about the "regrafting" of National Israel at all. So the question is when God will bring the Jews back to Him? He already has brought a remnant, as the Apostle Paul so clearly said when He "rhetorically asked:"

Romans 11:1

• "I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin."

The answer is no, God Forbid, He has not cast off His people as Paul declares himself an example of that fact. But all Israel shall be "defined" by God and not man. Note that Paul says that he is living proof that God has not cast away His people. What the Dispensationalists fail to understand is that:

Romans 9:6

• "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
• Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called."

Those whom God defines as Israel God will draw to Christ, and those whom God defines as Jews God will draw to Him. The rest, including national Israel, will die in unbelief just like the vast majority of Gentiles. There is no difference.

Remember that the blindness in part is happening to Israel which means that God does not prevent all Jews from being saved which we already knew there are many Jews become saved in the New Testament period, along with the Gentiles. Once the Gentiles be coming in, EVEN SO, all Israel shall be saved. That is it. There won't be a future "national redemption" or "regrafting" of a nation in the Middle East.

 

[Grip Docility]

Paul was not talking about the "regrafting" of National Israel at all. So the question is when God will bring the Jews back to Him? He already has brought a remnant, as the Apostle Paul so clearly said when He "rhetorically asked:"

Romans 11:1

• "I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin."

The answer is no, God Forbid, He has not cast off His people as Paul declares himself an example of that fact. But all Israel shall be "defined" by God and not man. Note that Paul says that he is living proof that God has not cast away His people. What the Dispensationalists fail to understand is that:

Romans 9:6

• "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
• Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called."

Those whom God defines as Israel God will draw to Christ, and those whom God defines as Jews God will draw to Him. The rest, including national Israel, will die in unbelief just like the vast majority of Gentiles. There is no difference.

Remember that the blindness in part is happening to Israel which means that God does not prevent all Jews from being saved which we already knew there are many Jews become saved in the New Testament period, along with the Gentiles. Once the Gentiles be coming in, EVEN SO, all Israel shall be saved. That is it. There won't be a future "national redemption" or "regrafting" of a nation in the Middle East.

I disagree, ofcoarse, but love how clearly you are expressing your perspective.

Romans 9 all the way to 11 primes the passage to make Jews and Israel literal.

But, that’s my perspective. All peace and Love in Jesus Christ to you.

 

[thesunisout]

The UN hates Israel. The UN has become predominantly Islamic and the latest declaration of Israel’s Capitol by the US has only angered many, that are afraid of the US.

As for end times, it could end today or go another 10,000 years +.

Only ONE knows the day and hour.

Zechariah 14, Acts 1 and Joel 3 are a wise read. Look for (Mount of Olives)

It couldn't be today..Paul said that day will not come unless the great falling away happens and the man of sin is revealed. That would also seem to indicate the temple would need to be rebuilt.

 

[Grip Docility]

It couldn't be today..Paul said that day will not come unless the great falling away happens and the man of sin is revealed. That would also seem to indicate the temple would need to be rebuilt.

Ofcoarse it’s not today.

We are simply seeing Divine ground work laid, my sibling in Him.

 

[seventysevens]

That will depend on what the Jews in Israel may call today
They have already made all the furnishings that will fill the new temple - blueprints drawn up - money set aside for construction and even speak about putting up a tabernacle just to have something up that they can call a temple - so it is not as if it is just some pondering of distant possibilities.
Rather they have become anxious and antsy , it has been determined that it would take only 2 years for construction to be completed and they could start their services in the new temple

 

[dfw69]

You forgot Zechariah 14, Joel 3 and what Jesus said, after the verse you quoted.

“Matthew 23:39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”

Any reason for that?

Hi grip...this scripture you quote says to me that Jesus will not return to offer the kingdom of heaven which the jews long waited for until they are ready to accept his teachings...

It also suggest his eternal state....

 

[Grip Docility]

Hi grip...this scripture you quote says to me that Jesus will not return to offer the kingdom of heaven which the jews long waited for until they are ready to accept his teachings...

It also suggest his eternal state....

I agree to a great degree with your statement.

 

[Kaon]

Does it mean anything, End Times related, that the modern State of Israel was created by the UN (a global empire resting on many waters/people) through Resolution 181, and that the UN claim ownership of Jerusalem?

Yes.

It is a distraction and a deception to take attention away from Israel as a people, and the sealing of God and deliverance of Israel is about a people.

Could you imagine what would happen to faith if Israel is destroyed over and over again - and everyone has been taught to focus on Israel as a land, not a people? God's Israel are an immovable people, a remnant scattered across the world (for now.)