Star of David... occult symbol?

[spiritualwarrior77]

Considering that western occult philosophy and practices are derived from a twisted reading of the Hebrew Bible and NT scriptures please try and take a step back from the modern meaning given. Remember your reading into this symbol your own current contextual meaning.

It is unwise to then generalise this and apply the same understanding onto the Hebrew people.

The article you provide a URL to is not excellent.
It is populist. It does not cite sources and regurgitates assumptions derived from other equally unreliable sources. No one who is serious student uses such asine sources let alone suggest it as a resource worthy of consideration.

Try reading the scriptures more widely your missing huge hunks of important stuff out by hyperfocussing on one recurrent theme of your own interest.

Can you show me ANYWHERE were this symbol is a JUDAIC symbol?!

NOT Kabbalaic... JUDAIC?

Please.... ANYWHERE!!!

ANYWHERE in history?!

I can show you over and over and over where it's used in the occult. You may dismiss the website I gave but it shows CLEARLY that it is WIDELY used in Freemasonry.

Please, I genuinely would love to know

 

[GuardianShua]

Just because usurpers attempt to usurp what is good from the good does not mean that the good is no longer good. Should we not study the Solomon Temple anymore because the Masons have some false teachings concerning Hiram or the two witness-pillars on the porch called Boaz and Yakin?

The pattern of you star is symmetrical and the pattren of the lamp lights are not, and do not match.

 

[GuardianShua]

According to archaeological findings before the first century AD, the Menorah did not have a six sided base stand.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

First Century Jewish-Hebrew Artifacts ~

The Messianic Seal found on clay jars and carved in stones, and artifacts, from the first century, has the Star of David right in the middle of the Menorah and the Fish:

The Messianic Seal

Messianic Seal with Aramaic text: “For the Oil of the Spirit”

Thank you for providing the info, as I was thinking of bringing up similar but you got to it early. The rate the thread is going, it seems people must need to be against the use of crosses as well due to how they symbolized being cursed and Christ was crucified on one.

And on the star of David, there are other places for good review/mateial. One is a ministry dedicated to following the history of the Star of David in full detail..as well as the many ways it has since evolved:

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Capernaum - curved lined star -4th century C.E.​

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Another place for excellent review is Dr. Goldmann's Research about the Star of David Symbol...and DR. Moshe Gaster Article About the Magen David. Another would beThe Origin of the Star of David: cultic or rightly ... - Jews and Joes and Flag of Israel and the symbolism of the Magen David.


And as another said here:

Origins of the Symbol
While Philo of Alexandria was the one who developed the conceptual meaning of the Star of David, its history – as evidenced by its name connection with the second king of Israel – is clearly much older. The earliest archaeological evidence for the Jewish use of the symbol comes from an inscription dating to the late seventh century before the Common Era and attributed to Joshua ben Asayahu. The legend behind its association with King Solomon, and hence its other name, Solomon’s Seal, is quite fanciful and almost certainly false. In medieval Jewish, Islamic, and Christian legends, as well as in one of the Arabian Nights stories, the seal of Solomon with its hexagonal shape was a magical signet ring said to have been possessed by the King, which variously gave him the power to command demons and to speak with animals. The reason that this symbol is more commonly attributed to King David, researchers have theorized, is that the hexagram represents the astrological chart at the time of David's birth or anointment as King.

However one of the most profound interpretations of the symbolic meaning of the Mogen Dovid restores its significance to its particularly Jewish connection.

Many commentators have suggested that the message of the Star of David is linked to the number seven by way of its six points surrounding the center. The number seven, of course, is key to our understanding the world as a holy creation of God. The earth is the result of a divine plan, not an accidental Big Bang. The world represents the vision of a Creator who after completing it took the time to rest, to evaluate, and to proclaim it “very good” – fulfilling His expectations. In short, the world is holy, a place in which man and everything else created in the six days has the potential to revolve and evolve around its center, its core and its Creator.

The Sabbath, the seventh day every week, is a reminder of this concept. Every seventh year, too, is a sabbatical year in which the land is not to be worked, and after seven cycles of seven years the Jubilee year brings freedom to indentured slaves and the return of property to its original owners.

This emphasis on the number seven as a sign of the holy finds another illustration by way of the menorah in the ancient Temple. The menorah was comprised of seven oil lamps resting on three stems branching from each side of a central pole. Three on each of its sides turned towards the center, six in all directed towards the midpoint, the seventh.

It has been strongly suggested that the Star of David came to be used as a standard symbol in synagogues around the world precisely because its organization into 3+3+1 - triangle up, triangle down, and center - corresponds exactly to the menorah.




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IMHO, when it comes to images/symbols, I think that one cannot discuss the issue without discussing the reality of cultural significance.

In example, anyone doing a basic study in Anthropology will quickly realize that cultural meaning often impacts what we do or do not see as signs of "evil" or "good"---and as discussed once in one of my classes in Anthropology, it's amazing that whenever it comes to the symbol of the Swastika , for most kats automatically think of what occurred in Nazi Germany since it was used in their circles---and are quick to associate all forms of genocide, terrorism and mass destruction with the image.​

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However, what others do not often do is research....as the reality is that the Swastika had many symbolic meanings in a myriad of cultures that had NOTHING to do at all with how the Nazi's used it. There were many variations of it throughout history---from it being used in Asian Culture to Indian Culture (specifically, Hindu religion) and many others as a sign of peace/prosperity and good luck:​

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Turns out Children light lamps in the shape of Swastika, a Hindu symbol of prosperity, and had NO concept of it being remotely connected to Hitler in how he used it.

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For many, seeing how Hitler tried to use the Church to do his bidding (including making his own version of the Bible), the Swatizka is simply a corrupt version of the Cross that believers use to remind themselves of what Christ went through....​

However, due to not doing research, people using the symbol are automatically condemned with broad-stroke judgements since one group used the symbol at one point to promote destructive purposes----no more different than saying that all uses of the Word "Christian" are bad due to how others claiming the title did horrible things such as the Crusades, Inquistions and other attrocities in Church History.. And too often is it the case that believers in the Lord do just that and the world gets the wrong impression of what being a disciple of Christ is truly about. ​

Though in all realness, if I were to wear a Swastika , within a church meeting, would it be biblically accurate for anyone in the congregation to condemn me as not being for the Lord? Moreover, if having issue with that paticular symbol on clothing, what paticular brand of clothing do you wear? May sound odd...but I'm asking due to how my sister and I were having a conversation on the matter awhile ago...for she had a situation where clothes were donated to the kids but they were from the line of a pretty bad rapper named 50 Cent....and someone felt that by wearning the clothes, they were representing bad culture. However, her issue was that clothes are clothes----and if they're free/she's in need, there should be no problem. ​

And it'd be the same for an impoverished kid who came in with a shirt that had a Swastika symbol on it since that's all he or she could afford to wear. Additionally, her issue was that it seems very subjective seeing that when it comes to other things, no one says a word. No one complains about "Huggies" DIAPERS===even though they're known for funding organizations for same-sex relationships. No one says a word about wearing suits like Armani and others---even though in the Buisness WORLD, suits are worn by men who promote things such as embezzlement, greed, bribery and various other issues......but if a impoverished kid came in with a shirt that had a Swastika symbol on it, most in the Church would trip-----then procedd to quote every scripture possible on "Not being like the World!!!!", even though the verses used are often out of context when it comes to defining what the World is.​

The same dynamic applies for the symbolism behind the Star of David symbol, which has literally appeared in a myriad of cultures for ages. Are there camps within the Jewish world that've brought out occultic symbolism with it? Of course. But it's no different than numerous other symbols used by believers that were hijacked to mean something radically different....and seeing how the symbol itself was also used for beauty/good, I don't see how it is we're to take issue with it. If people in the Occult began to pray on the Sabbath and do fertility rites, does that mean that the Sabbath is not Holy to the Lord? If people began to clap their hands during worship to their gods in their pagan services, does that mean logically that believers must now stop clapping hands as well lest they give any kind of similiarity? ​

Shared some more in-depth on how bad logic seems to be used with the "pagan" connections elsewhere, as it concerns how Solomon himself used flower symbols in the temple even though flowers symbolized gods/goddesses in Hindu Worship in their temples ( more here )---and with Joshua who was told to use stones to write down what the Lord had done, that practice was done by the Cannanites to their gods first (more here )...and when seeing many of the Festivals/Holy Days given by the Lord, one will quickly note where many aspects were already found within the pagan cultures themselves previously and the Lord reinterpreted it via speaking in a context people already understood (even as it concerns the name "El" given for the Lord...more shared here).

 

[daq]

The pattern of you star is symmetrical and the pattren of the lamp lights are not, and do not match.

According to archaeological findings before the first century AD, the Menorah did not have a six sided base stand.

You must never have seen the ''Arch of Titus'' (Google it!) which includes one of the most famous depictions of the Menorah ever produced, (made by Jewish slaves). When do you think the Menorah of the Second Temple was made? The Arch of Titus clearly depicts the Menorah, which Rome plundered from the Temple in 70AD, with a SIX-SIDED base. As for the image file which you have quoted from above: please pretend that you are looking at it from above the lamp and perhaps you might see that the arrangement of the branches form the Magen David which matches the six-sided base.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Does this mean that Bees are part of the illuminatti too for they build their honeycombs in hexagrams?

God who created all does not seem to mind using various geometric shapes.

Good point...as a symbol utilized by one group to mean something negative doesn't mean that all others using it support what another group (or organism ) supports. That'd be no more logical than to say that computers are "evil" because they're used to spread evil...even though not everyone on them does so for those purposes.

In regards to the usage of symbolism, I've been rather amazed seeing the sheer diversity present in many cultures that utilize things similar to the Star of David.

In India, you'll see the symbol in a myriad of ways, such as with this Indian Hexagram framing the Om Symbol:

Here's one showing Hexagrams in Diwali Decorations

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The Diwali Light festival is celebrated on the first day of Kartika month (on October or November) and the frequent usage of hexagrams as one of many star motives in Indian culture seems to relate to the most basic connection between the shape of the stars in the skies and their light.

There are also pictures of Indian sandpainting, as Hexagrams are only one of many motifs of the Indian geometrical sandpainting made usually with rice powder. It is created by millions of Hindu women every morning in front of their houses in order to bring prosperity to their families. Rice powder is used to invite ants and birds to eat it…with the idea being to contribute to the harmony of the world.​

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This shows a Hexagram made from elements ordered as palindrom rows: 1-4-3-4-1​

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This pattern is one Indian women use everyday to make pictures or rangoli/kolam in front of the house or near the diety they follow.​

Here's another one of the Star of David symbol utilized in India---as it's a Mughal Six Pointed Star at At Jaisalmer rajasthan India. It's a Flower in a Hexagram surrounded by Rhombs all carved in a sandstone so that most of the artifact is actually a shadow.

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It (the Hexagram symbol) has been used in other ways as well.

Here's another one, from Buddist Culture (as the Hexagram was used to symbolize the element of wind and the deity worshipped was within):

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Here's another of a Byzantine Hexagram Oil Lamp from Shlomo Moussaieff collection.

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Many others besides that...

As another said best:

The hexagram, or six sided star is known today as an exclusively Jewish symbol. This has not always been the case though. In this article, we discuss what other faiths and cultures it has represented over the millenia.


The hexagram formed by the intersection of two equilateral triangles known today as the Star of David is the most prominent symbol of the state of Israel, and Judaism today, as can be seen on the flag of Israel.

However, this symbol was not adopted by Judaism nor Zionism as their symbol until recent times.


Magen David مجن داوود


It is said to be "The Shield of David", or Magen David in Hebrew. The Semitic root M-G-N has the same meaning in Hebrew and Arabic.

The symbol was adopted by Jews in Prague in the 17th century, with somesources quoting the 14th century instead. The earliest mention of theMagen is in a 12th century Karaite book by Judah Hadassi. Some sources mention it as a Cannanite symbol, but archeological digs in Palestine have failed to confirm neither a Hebrew nor a Canaanite origin. It was adoped by some American Jewish publications in 1873, and by the Zionist Congress of Basel.


The earliest association with Judaism is a Jewish tombstone in Tarentum, in southern Italy dating from the 3rd century C.E.


It is commonly found on jewelry today.

Seal of Solomon خاتم سليمان


The Seal of Solomon was associted with Solomon, son of David. He is seen in Islam as a prophet, as well as a great miracle maker.

However, in folklore, legends of his miracles took mythical dimensions, with a ring of his that had the "The Greatest Name of God" on it, unknown to anyone else. With it, unimaginable feats can be done. It is mentioned in the Arabian Nights, for example in the Fisherman and the Jinni story, and the Eldest Lady's Tale. It was believed by the superstituous to be a talisman طلسم with magicaland healing qualities.

As a result, the Seal of Solomon was used by Muslims from India to Spain to adorn and decorate the bottom of drinking vessels, coins issued by various dynasties, decorations on mosques and other buildings, and elsewhere. Click on the images on the side to see a larger version.

Several religious and quasi-medical manuscripts show the hexagram in relation to incantations for healing and warding off evil.


For example, the so called Libros Plumbeos, or the Leaden Books, found in the Sacromonte hill in Granada in the 16th century, show the hexagram among writings about the Virgin Mary, Jesus, and some of his disciples. A Morisco Muslim, Ahmad Ibn Qasim al-Hajari writes about them in the first half of the 17th century as if they are Muslim symbols.

In Europe, the symbol also took a non-Jewish character, as can be seen in this collection of building decorations in St. Petersburg, including some churches.


The kings of Ethiopia, claiming direct descent from Solomon, instated a Knightly Order of the Seal of Solomon in 1874.
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[Gxg (G²)]

Occultists did not invent shapes.

God invented shapes, if any origin is non-occult, it's that one.

Shapes can always become a point of obsession.

 

[saffron park]

Shapes can always become a point of obsession.

Anything can become a point of obsession.

 

[GuardianShua]

Thank you for providing the info, as I was thinking of bringing up similar but you got to it early. The rate the thread is going, it seems people must need to be against the use of crosses as well due to how they symbolized being cursed and Christ was crucified on one.

And on the star of David, there are other places for good review/mateial. One is a ministry dedicated to following the history of the Star of David in full detail..as well as the many ways it has since evolved:

​

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Capernaum - curved lined star -4th century C.E.​

Credit: Gabi Goldman​

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Another place for excellent review is Dr. Goldmann's Research about the Star of David Symbol...and DR. Moshe Gaster Article About the Magen David. Another would beThe Origin of the Star of David: cultic or rightly ... - Jews and Joes and Flag of Israel and the symbolism of the Magen David.


And as another said here:

Origins of the Symbol
While Philo of Alexandria was the one who developed the conceptual meaning of the Star of David, its history – as evidenced by its name connection with the second king of Israel – is clearly much older. The earliest archaeological evidence for the Jewish use of the symbol comes from an inscription dating to the late seventh century before the Common Era and attributed to Joshua ben Asayahu. The legend behind its association with King Solomon, and hence its other name, Solomon’s Seal, is quite fanciful and almost certainly false. In medieval Jewish, Islamic, and Christian legends, as well as in one of the Arabian Nights stories, the seal of Solomon with its hexagonal shape was a magical signet ring said to have been possessed by the King, which variously gave him the power to command demons and to speak with animals. The reason that this symbol is more commonly attributed to King David, researchers have theorized, is that the hexagram represents the astrological chart at the time of David's birth or anointment as King.

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The very first "Messianic Seals" had five point stars.​

 

[GuardianShua]

You must never have seen the ''Arch of Titus'' (Google it!) which includes one of the most famous depictions of the Menorah ever produced, (made by Jewish slaves). When do you think the Menorah of the Second Temple was made? The Arch of Titus clearly depicts the Menorah, which Rome plundered from the Temple in 70AD, with a SIX-SIDED base. As for the image file which you have quoted from above: please pretend that you are looking at it from above the lamp and perhaps you might see that the arrangement of the branches form the Magen David which matches the six-sided base.

From 167 BC to 135 AD, many of the Jews were Hellenist.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

The very first "Messianic Seals" had five point stars.

Wouldn't be surprised, seeing how the symbol itself was found all around and even Solomon himself had dealings with other cultures utilizing certain symbolism.

The Massoretic Movement and its contributions to the issue are very fascianting, IMHO...and many have noted that the symbol itself was utilized by early believers in the church, as seen here, from the work of Dr. Ze'ev Goldmann.

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Dr. Ze'ev Goldmann and others working with him have don amazing work on the subject, as they found the Davidic Sign already in the first century C.E. in Pompeii and other Italian cities. In Pompeii they found the sign at the Mosaic Floors of the Casa di Trittolemo, which seems to have been the secret meeting place of an early Judeo- Christian community there. Other Italian places like the Museum of Aquileia or the Villa Romana del Casale, near Piazza Armerina, Sicily, and others, showed a rich development of the sign in single and multiple representations on Mosaic Floors and wall-decorations.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Anything can become a point of obsession.

So true. The only true obsessions worth having are those dealing with learning how to glorify Yeshua, as that should be what our passion is. And unless he noted something to be essential, there's no need trying to make a crusade on it.

 

[spiritualwarrior77]

Thank-you everyone who posted such thought provoking material

Re. the Swastika... my understanding of it's origins, is it's use by the ancient Aryans. Their 'god' Indra was a war god. To the Zoroastrians, Indra was chief of the seven demon 'gods'. Not so different to the Nazi's really. Just because millions of Hindu's, Buddhists, Jain's etc. use it, doesn't make it a 'good' symbol (a bit like other symbols which shall remain nameless)

The fact that the hexagram appears in so many pagan/polytheistic cultures reinforces my point. Kabbalah (as in, occult Kabbalah) cross fertilized with these cultures. More to the point, it was heavily influenced by Arab 'magic', which places great importance on the Seal of Solomon (hexagram).

Re. the menorah/star of david/Jesus fish Messianic symbol on the pottery... it's very neat (too neat) but a fraud in my opinion. I'm no expert in archeology but immediately smelt something fishy (pun intended ) upon seeing. Many in a greater position of authority than me in this regard, seem to think so too.

Sorry, GuardianShua... I cannot buy your menorah as merkaba (hexagram/star tetrahedron) theory. Creative though

 

[daq]

From 167 BC to 135 AD, many of the Jews were Hellenist.

You are suggesting that the Hellenist Jews are the ones who fashioned the new Menorah after Antiochus IV stole the original? Please provide some evidence!

1 Maccabees 1:20-22 NJB
20. After his conquest of Egypt, in the year 143, Antiochus turned about and advanced on Israel and Jerusalem in massive strength.
21. Insolently breaking into the sanctuary, he removed the golden altar and the lamp-stand for the light with all its fittings,
22. together with the table for the loaves of permanent offering, the libation vessels, the cups, the golden censers, the veil, the crowns, and the golden decoration on the front of the Temple, which he stripped of everything.

1 Maccabees 4:47-53 NJB
47. They took unhewn stones, as the Law prescribed, and built a new altar on the lines of the old one.
48. They restored the Holy Place and the interior of the Dwelling, and purified the courts.
49. They made new sacred vessels, and brought the lamp-stand, the altar of incense, and the table into the Temple.
50. They burned incense on the altar and lit the lamps on the lamp-stand, and these shone inside the Temple.
51. They placed the loaves on the table and hung the curtains and completed all the tasks they had undertaken.
52. On the twenty-fifth of the ninth month, Chislev, in the year 148 they rose at dawn
53. and offered a lawful sacrifice on the new altar of burnt offering which they had made.

So then, you are suggesting that in the short space of about six years there were none left who knew or remembered the pattern of the old Menorah in order to fashion a replacement? That they somehow changed the fashion of the base to a six-sided version at a whim? In addition the Menorah which Antiochus took away was most likely the same from the first Temple which was returned from Babylon:

Jeremiah 52:17-19 KJV
16. But Nebuzaradan the captain of the guard left certain of the poor of the land for vinedressers and for husbandmen.
17. Also the pillars of brass that were in the house of the Lord, and the bases, and the brasen sea that was in the house of the Lord, the Chaldeans brake, and carried all the brass of them to Babylon.
18. The caldrons also, and the shovels, and the snuffers, and the bowls, and the spoons, and all the vessels of brass wherewith they ministered, took they away.
19. And the basons, and the firepans, and the bowls, and the caldrons, and the candlesticks, [menorowt] and the spoons, and the cups; that which was of gold in gold, and that which was of silver in silver, took the captain of the guard away.

Ezra 1:7-11 KJV
7. Also Cyrus the king brought forth the vessels of the house of the Lord, which Nebuchadnezzar had brought forth out of Jerusalem, and had put them in the house of his gods;
8. Even those did Cyrus king of Persia bring forth by the hand of Mithredath the treasurer, and numbered them unto Sheshbazzar, the prince of Judah.
9. And this is the number of them: thirty chargers of gold, a thousand chargers of silver, nine and twenty knives,
10. Thirty basons of gold, silver basons of a second sort four hundred and ten, and other vessels a thousand.
11. All the vessels of gold and of silver were five thousand and four hundred. All these did Sheshbazzar bring up with them of the captivity that were brought up from Babylon unto Jerusalem.

In addition to the above information the original Menorah was fashioned after the pattern shown to Moses in the Mount, (Exodus 25:31-40). There is therefore no way that the six-sided base is a late addition of the Maccabees as you have hypothesized; your supposition is pure speculation. The original Menorah design is depicted in the Arch of Titus:

Nothing was ever changed …

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Thank-you everyone who posted such thought provoking material

Re. the Swastika... my understanding of it's origins, is it's use by the ancient Aryans. Their 'god' Indra was a war god. To the Zoroastrians, Indra was chief of the seven demon 'gods'. Not so different to the Nazi's really. Just because millions of Hindu's, Buddhists, Jain's etc. use it, doesn't make it a 'good' symbol (a bit like other symbols which shall remain nameless)

The swastika itself was not originated within the culture of the Aryans. That is a common myth...but on the issue, again, trying to focus solely in on the symbolism aspect of a thing only goes so far. For things like T.V and internet (or cars ) not made with origins in the Lord---yet it being made in intentions not of the Lord doesn't mean all uses of it are condemned..as some things are neutral. Thus, unless one ceases uses the computer, one can only go so far in discussing symbolism as being "good" or "bad" since they are being selective by default.

The fact that the hexagram appears in so many pagan/polytheistic cultures reinforces my point.

Actually, it takes away from it significantly....paticularly when trying to make accusations that the Hexagram is solely an occult symbol. One can no more make an argument about that symbol being wrong for believers to use than one can argue that the Cross itself is a bad symbol because of how crosses are used often to symbolize things other than the death of Christ/his being cursed for our sakes. That others choose to use the cross for evil purposes doesn't mean that crosses themselves are to be condemned, just as it wasn't the case that other things used in the Temple or Tabernacle (i.e. lightstands, incense, images of animal/human hybrids, depictions of flowers, etc) were not condemned due to how other pagan cultures used them first in their actions.

Kabbalah (as in, occult Kabbalah) cross fertilized with these cultures.

So did Ancient Israel also fertilize with other cultures apart from it---and at the direction of the Lord. Much of the Proverbs from Solomon were sayings from Egyptian sages...

Throughout his reign, Solomon applied his wisdom well becasue he sought God....& the fruits of his wisdom were peace, security, and prosperity for the nation. However, despite all of that & the fact the God gave Solomon wisdom, I've always wondered what to make of the fact that Solomon seemed to be a student of Philosophy/General Revelation He has given to all----saved or NOT (such as with the sciences, medicine, etc)....& that many of the things he wrote down in Proverbs which people turn to DAILY for wisdom may not be directly from Judaic/Israelite sources. Regarding the book of Proverbs, which contains many practical expressions of general truth rooted in God, there were many points where He did not author information but simply collected/compiled the information for what it was and didn’t hesitate to place the information out before others because the authors may not’ve been explicitly for a Judaic perspective even though they agreed. Consider, for instance, Proverbs 22:17 through Proverb 24:34, in which he collected/shared 77 proverbs, and godly principles most likely spoken by simple wise men). Again, Much of the wisdom in Proverbs 22:17 to 24:34 bears close affinities to Egyptian wisdom documented from other sources. (more here and here /here ).

And what of the many wise sayings from others besides himself in other instances?

Take, for example, the words of Agur, Proverbs 30:1-33, which are a collection of proverbs written by an unknown sage. The orgin of these sayings is not clear, & nothing is known about Agur except that he was a wise teacher who may've come from Lemuel's kingdom. It was enough that he was a simple student of wisdom/knowledge at the time of SOLOMON (I Kings 4:30-31 )....... ……

More to the point, it was heavily influenced by Arab 'magic', which places great importance on the Seal of Solomon (hexagram).

Arab 'magic' was but one aspect in regards to the seal. But the same dynamic goes for cultures glorifying trees/flowers, despite the fact that trees/flowers were used often by Israel. Another culture glorifying something with symbolism for one purpose doesn't mean all were like that...

 

[GuardianShua]

You are suggesting that the Hellenist Jews are the ones who fashioned the new Menorah after Antiochus IV stole the original? Please provide some evidence!

1 Maccabees 1:20-22 NJB
20. After his conquest of Egypt, in the year 143, Antiochus turned about and advanced on Israel and Jerusalem in massive strength.
21. Insolently breaking into the sanctuary, he removed the golden altar and the lamp-stand for the light with all its fittings,
22. together with the table for the loaves of permanent offering, the libation vessels, the cups, the golden censers, the veil, the crowns, and the golden decoration on the front of the Temple, which he stripped of everything.

1 Maccabees 4:47-53 NJB
47. They took unhewn stones, as the Law prescribed, and built a new altar on the lines of the old one.
48. They restored the Holy Place and the interior of the Dwelling, and purified the courts.
49. They made new sacred vessels, and brought the lamp-stand, the altar of incense, and the table into the Temple.
50. They burned incense on the altar and lit the lamps on the lamp-stand, and these shone inside the Temple.
51. They placed the loaves on the table and hung the curtains and completed all the tasks they had undertaken.
52. On the twenty-fifth of the ninth month, Chislev, in the year 148 they rose at dawn
53. and offered a lawful sacrifice on the new altar of burnt offering which they had made.

So then, you are suggesting that in the short space of about six years there were none left who knew or remembered the pattern of the old Menorah in order to fashion a replacement? That they somehow changed the fashion of the base to a six-sided version at a whim? In addition the Menorah which Antiochus took away was most likely the same from the first Temple which was returned from Babylon:

Jeremiah 52:17-19 KJV
16. But Nebuzaradan the captain of the guard left certain of the poor of the land for vinedressers and for husbandmen.
17. Also the pillars of brass that were in the house of the Lord, and the bases, and the brasen sea that was in the house of the Lord, the Chaldeans brake, and carried all the brass of them to Babylon.
18. The caldrons also, and the shovels, and the snuffers, and the bowls, and the spoons, and all the vessels of brass wherewith they ministered, took they away.
19. And the basons, and the firepans, and the bowls, and the caldrons, and the candlesticks, [menorowt] and the spoons, and the cups; that which was of gold in gold, and that which was of silver in silver, took the captain of the guard away.

Ezra 1:7-11 KJV
7. Also Cyrus the king brought forth the vessels of the house of the Lord, which Nebuchadnezzar had brought forth out of Jerusalem, and had put them in the house of his gods;
8. Even those did Cyrus king of Persia bring forth by the hand of Mithredath the treasurer, and numbered them unto Sheshbazzar, the prince of Judah.
9. And this is the number of them: thirty chargers of gold, a thousand chargers of silver, nine and twenty knives,
10. Thirty basons of gold, silver basons of a second sort four hundred and ten, and other vessels a thousand.
11. All the vessels of gold and of silver were five thousand and four hundred. All these did Sheshbazzar bring up with them of the captivity that were brought up from Babylon unto Jerusalem.

In addition to the above information the original Menorah was fashioned after the pattern shown to Moses in the Mount, (Exodus 25:31-40). There is therefore no way that the six-sided base is a late addition of the Maccabees as you have hypothesized; your supposition is pure speculation. The original Menorah design is depicted in the Arch of Titus:

Nothing was ever changed …

History and fate
The original menorah was made for the Tabernacle, and the Bible records it as being present until the Israelites crossed the Jordan river. When the Tabernacle is pitched in Shiloh (Joshua 18:1), it assumed that the menorah was also present. However, no mention is made of it during the years that the Ark of the Covenant was moved in the times of Samuel and Saul. There is no further mention of the menorah in Solomon's temple, except in (2 Chronicles 4:7) as he creates ten lampstands. These are recorded as being taken away to Babylon by the invading armies under the general Nebuzar-Adan (Jeremiah 52:19) some centuries later.
During the restoration of the Temple worship after the captivity in Babylon, no mention is made of the return of the menorah but only of "vessels" (Ezra 1:9-10).
The Book of Maccabees record that Antiochus Epiphanes took away the lampstands when he invaded and robbed the Temple (1 Maccabees 1:21). The later record of the making of "new holy vessels" may refer to the manufacture of new lampstands(1 Maccabees 4:49). There is thereafter no Biblical mention of the fate of the menorah.
The oldest drawings of the Menorah show it standing on a tripod.

 

[spiritualwarrior77]

The swastika itself was not originated within the culture of the Aryans. That is a common myth...but on the issue, again, trying to focus solely in on the symbolism aspect of a thing only goes so far. For things like T.V and internet (or cars ) not made with origins in the Lord---yet it being made in intentions not of the Lord doesn't mean all uses of it are condemned..as some things are neutral. Thus, unless one ceases uses the computer, one can only go so far in discussing symbolism as being "good" or "bad" since they are being selective by default.

Symbols hold the meaning we place upon them. If the 'Star of David' was never the Star of David (if it was, there is no proof of this) then perhaps the meaning is erroneous.
My question is... where is the proof that this symbol (the 'Star of David') was ever sanctioned to be used by Jews or Christians, by the Lord?

Actually, it takes away from it significantly....paticularly when trying to make accusations that the Hexagram is solely an occult symbol. One can no more make an argument about that symbol being wrong for believers to use than one can argue that the Cross itself is a bad symbol because of how crosses are used often to symbolize things other than the death of Christ/his being cursed for our sakes. That others choose to use the cross for evil purposes doesn't mean that crosses themselves are to be condemned, just as it wasn't the case that other things used in the Temple or Tabernacle (i.e. lightstands, incense, images of animal/human hybrids, depictions of flowers, etc) were not condemned due to how other pagan cultures used them first in their actions.

The cross, as used by Christians, represents the Roman execution stake used to kill Jesus. It doesn't have anything to do with crosses used in other cultures. As far as I am aware, crosses from other cultures are shaped like a plus sign (+) rather than shaped like a 't'. (The Egyptian 'ankh' while similar is a completely different symbol.)

So did Ancient Israel also fertilize with other cultures apart from it---and at the direction of the Lord. Much of the Proverbs from Solomon were sayings from Egyptian sages...

Good point. Didn't know that about Solomon... interesting

 

[GenetoJean]

OK, maybe this was already answered but isnt a pentagram 5 pointed and the Star of David 6 pointed?

Another question is how is this bridge building? (The name of this forum)

Final comment, going from the OP, it's a shame that a star cant be used anymore since it was once used for evil purposes.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Symbols hold the meaning we place upon them. If the 'Star of David' was never the Star of David (if it was, there is no proof of this) then perhaps the meaning is erroneous.

As symbol used in the Star of David was never solely used by Israel, it is inconsequential trying to force the meaning of what others felt for it (in regards to the Occult ) onto all of Israel. Again, that already goes directly counter to the concept of what the Lord did repeatedly throughout Israelite culture by taking things found in pagan contexts (be it in the present or past) and using them for His glory.

My question is... where is the proof that this symbol (the 'Star of David') was ever sanctioned to be used by Jews or Christians by the Lord?

Seeing that the Jewish people have used it for some time throughout the centuries and it was also used by Christians---which was noted in-depth before---your question was already addressed.

But, if seeking to stand by the logic you're operating in, your question would also need to address where the Lord ever sanctioned the use of the Printing Press or the Internet/Cars or Airplanes and a host of other things for His glory. There is a principle of how things used in one culture are never forbidden to be used in another if the Lord never mentioned things on it---and as the Lord never mentioned things (extra-biblical) on shapes and many shapes used in other cultures were present in Israel, there's no real argument against the Star. And this has been stated by many who have dealt with the Occult/come from pagan backgrounds and yet know how to deal with things..

The cross, as used by Christians, represents the Roman execution stake used to kill Jesus. It doesn't have anything to do with crosses used in other cultures.

Incorrect, seeing what Crosses were used to represent in other cultures LONG before CHrist ever came onto the scene...and they were used to represent a myriad of things, both GOOD and BAD. By your logic, you're being willfully inconsistent in application when saying that the origins of something as pagan prevent it from being used by believers....

As far as I am aware, crosses from other cultures are shaped like a plus sign (+)

rather than shaped like a 't'. (The Egyptian 'ankh' while similar is a completely different symbol.)

Crosses were not just in the shape of a T.

Symbols hold the meaning we place upon them. If the 'Star of David' was never the Star of David (if it was, there is no proof of this) then perhaps the meaning is erroneous.

As symbol used in the Star of David was never solely used by Israel, it is inconsequential trying to force the meaning of what others felt for it (in regards to the Occult ) onto all of Israel. Again, that already goes directly counter to the concept of what the Lord did repeatedly throughout Israelite culture by taking things found in pagan contexts (be it in the present or past) and using them for His glory.

My question is... where is the proof that this symbol (the 'Star of David') was ever sanctioned to be used by Jews or Christians by the Lord?

Seeing that the Jewish people have used it for some time throughout the centuries and it was also used by Christians---which was noted in-depth before---your question was already addressed.

But, if seeking to stand by the logic you're operating in, your question would also need to address where the Lord ever sanctioned the use of the Printing Press or the Internet/Cars or Airplanes and a host of other things for His glory. There is a principle of how things used in one culture are never forbidden to be used in another if the Lord never mentioned things on it---and as the Lord never mentioned things (extra-biblical) on shapes and many shapes used in other cultures were present in Israel, there's no real argument against the Star. And this has been stated by many who have dealt with the Occult/come from pagan backgrounds and yet know how to deal with things..

The cross, as used by Christians, represents the Roman execution stake used to kill Jesus. It doesn't have anything to do with crosses used in other cultures.

Incorrect, seeing what Crosses were used to represent in other cultures LONG before CHrist ever came onto the scene...and they were used to represent a myriad of things, both GOOD and BAD. By your logic, you're being willfully inconsistent in application when saying that the origins of something as pagan prevent it from being used by believers....

As far as I am aware, crosses from other cultures are shaped like a plus sign (+)

rather than shaped like a 't'. (The Egyptian 'ankh' while similar is a completely different symbol.)

Crosses are not just shaped like a 't' while other cultures are in 'plus' sign.

Some basic review....

​

There are four basic types of iconographic representations of the cross: the crux quadrata, or Greek cross, with four equal arms; the crux immissa, or Latin cross, whose base stem is longer than the other three arms; the crux commissa, in the form of the Greek letter tau, sometimes called St. Anthony’s cross; and crux decussata, named from the Roman decussis, or symbol of the numeral 10, also known as St. Andrew’s cross. Tradition favours the crux immissa as that on which Christ died, but some believe that it was a crux commissa. The many variations and ornamentations of processional, altar, and heraldic crosses, of carved and painted crosses in churches, graveyards, and elsewhere, are developments of these four types.


As many scholars have noted, no one knows for certain what type of cross he died on---for what matters is the symbolism placed into the Cross for believers, as the scriptures note that one is cursed if they die on a tree.

There are other variations of the plus sign with crosses used, such as the one from Coptic Christianity:

​

Moreover, there's the Apostles' Cross, the Treflée, Botonée or Cathedral Cross. The three circles or discs at the ends of each arm in a Christian context represents the Trinity but was probably also copied from earlier Celtic Druidry, where the circles or rings represent the three dominions of earth, sky and sea.​

​

​

Cross forms were used as symbols, religious or otherwise, long before the Christian Era, but it is not always clear whether they were simply marks of identification or possession or were significant for belief and worship. Two pre-Christian cross forms have had some vogue in Christian usage. The ancient Egyptian hieroglyphic symbol of life—the ankh, a tau cross surmounted by a loop and known as crux ansata—was adopted and extensively used on Coptic Christian monuments.

​

​

The swastika, called crux gammata, composed of four Greek capitals of the letter gamma, is marked on many early Christian tombs as a veiled symbol of the cross

For other good places to go on the issue, one can go here.

That said, as others said, it'd behoove you to do better research before trying to make further arguments. The same logic in trying to say "Well, the crosses from other cultures are shaped like a plus sign" is no different than other saying that stars from other cultures have differing variations and yet seem similar to stars used in Israel, just as crosses used in Christendom have been used in the shape of a plus sign.

Thus, as others said, it'd behoove you to do better research before trying to make further arguments. The same logic in trying to say "Well, the crosses from other cultures are shaped like a plus sign" is no different than other saying that stars from other cultures have differing variations and yet seem similar to stars used in Israel, just as crosses used in Christendom have been used in the shape of a plus sign.

 

[daq]

History and fate
The original menorah was made for the Tabernacle, and the Bible records it as being present until the Israelites crossed the Jordan river. When the Tabernacle is pitched in Shiloh (Joshua 18:1), it assumed that the menorah was also present. However, no mention is made of it during the years that the Ark of the Covenant was moved in the times of Samuel and Saul. There is no further mention of the menorah in Solomon's temple, except in (2 Chronicles 4:7) as he creates ten lampstands. These are recorded as being taken away to Babylon by the invading armies under the general Nebuzar-Adan (Jeremiah 52:19) some centuries later.
During the restoration of the Temple worship after the captivity in Babylon, no mention is made of the return of the menorah but only of "vessels" (Ezra 1:9-10).
The Book of Maccabees record that Antiochus Epiphanes took away the lampstands when he invaded and robbed the Temple (1 Maccabees 1:21). The later record of the making of "new holy vessels" may refer to the manufacture of new lampstands(1 Maccabees 4:49). There is thereafter no Biblical mention of the fate of the menorah.
The oldest drawings of the Menorah show it standing on a tripod.

This is a statute commandment tamiyd-continually-perpetually-daily forever:

Exodus 27:20-21 KJV
20. And thou shalt command the children of Israel, that they bring thee pure oil olive beaten for the light, to cause the lamp to burn always [tamiyd].
21. In the tabernacle of the congregation without the vail, which is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall order it from evening to morning before the Lord: it shall be a statute for ever unto their generations on the behalf of the children of Israel.

The fact that Solomon did not make a new Menorah to stand before the Vail reveals that they must have retained the original. It is like the Covenants; they are not discarded but rather added upon like foundational layers. Solomon made five lamps of gold for the right hand side and five lamps of gold for the left hand side of the secondary Sanctuary, (''ten virgins''). So whereas you assume that the lack of information or commentary means that the Menorah somehow came up missing; I rather prefer by faith to believe that since the original remained in tact there was no need to expound upon its whereabouts because every Israelite knew where it stood. And where it stood was before the Vail in the Tabernacle, before the Oracle-Holy Holies in the Solomon Temple, and again before the Vail in the second Temple, always in the same position; and that was in its continual-perpetual-daily function which was commanded by YHWH to be lighted daily forever, using pure beaten olive oil, and done in behalf of all the children of Israel. And not until its purpose is ultimately fulfilled in Yeshua Mowshiya`-Messias, who expounds the meaning of the Menorah, do we see it openly being carted away by the Romans in 70AD.

Easy G, thank you also for the information you have posted.