Stanford study: Masks useless for Covid

[topher694]

If 'not killing someone' isn't something you feel morally obligated about, vaccination is the least of your problems.

My children are allergic to the traditional flu shots and tamiflu. Anaphylactic allergic. I am SO utterly sick of this type of nonsense. I thought when the vaccine got here people would get it and calm down. Now all I see is severely ramped up pressure for everyone to get in line and do their duty otherwise they "don't care for their neighbor" or "may well kill someone". I am NOT going to play games with my kids lives and I am so sick of others pressuring me to do so. Where is the compassion for them? I shouldn't have to explain their medical history every time I talk to someone. This compassion card is nothing but complete utter virtue signaling hogwash. You want to play games with your family's lives go for it, but leave mine and others alone.

 

[keith99]

IMO, anyone who hasn't had at least one vaccination shot, at this point, doesn't deserve the protection of a mask mandate.

...In my state of CA, we're now vaccinating people age 16 and over... That means all the 'at risk' people are safe. This pandemic is over in my view.

Let's return to normal now.

Major fail.

That is like celebrating a touchdown by spiking the ball when you are on the 5 yard line.

Just beacuse those over 16 can now try to get an appointment does not create any magic protection. In fact it creates no protection at all. Full effectiveness is not reached until 2 weeks after the second injection.

Come to think of it this is like spiking the ball on the 20 yardline.

 

[sfs]

Nowhere did I say that not killing someone is not something I feel moral obligation towards.

Good. I hope we're all in agreement that taking reasonable measures to avoid harming others is a moral obligation, especially for Christians. That leaves plenty to discuss about the facts regarding the vaccines, and about what constitutes reasonable measures, but let's just take the question of whether there is an overall moral obligation off the table.

 

[Dkh587]

Please explain the error in the reasoning presented below:

FACT: The vaccine is not 100% effective - some who get the vaccine will still get sick if infected. And their risk increases in proportion to the number of people who refuse to be vaccinated.

FACT: Some people cannot even get vaccinated -they are therefore placed at risk from those who can be vaccinated, but choose not to.

CONCLUSION: It is indisputable that your refusal to be vaccinated places others at risk (unless you withdraw from human society).

Now then: does this not constitute counter-evidence to your claim to care for the well-being of others?

At this point, it seems to me that you are trying to convince yourself.

Nobody is stopping you or others from vaccinating yourself.

 

[sfs]

My children are allergic to the traditional flu shots and tamiflu. Anaphylactic allergic. I am SO utterly sick of this type of nonsense. I thought when the vaccine got here people would get it and calm down. Now all I see is severely ramped up pressure for everyone to get in line and do their duty otherwise they "don't care for their neighbor" or "may well kill someone". I am NOT going to play games with my kids lives and I am so sick of others pressuring me to do so. Where is the compassion for them? I shouldn't have to explain their medical history every time I talk to someone. This compassion card is nothing but complete utter virtue signaling hogwash. You want to play games with your family's lives go for it, but leave mine and others alone.

Um, what? There are certainly people who shouldn't be vaccinated for medical reasons, and they shouldn't feel under any pressure to be vaccinated. Those people, and immune-compromised people, are some of the strongest reasons that those who can be vaccinated but are simply choosing not to should choose differently.

 

[sfs]

Nobody is stopping you or others from vaccinating yourself.

Which, as has been repeatedly explained to you, is beside the point. I've been vaccinated. That is not going to help the person that you infect because you haven't been vaccinated. It may not even help me if I'm the one you infect.

 

[sfs]

As for the response, 'It's my choice'. Of course it's your choice -- that's assumed if we're talking about moral obligations. The question is whether there are moral issues that should be informing your choice.

 

[topher694]

Um, what? There are certainly people who shouldn't be vaccinated for medical reasons, and they shouldn't feel under any pressure to be vaccinated. Those people, and immune-compromised people, are some of the strongest reasons that those who can be vaccinated but are simply choosing not to should choose differently.

Baloney. Rhetoric like, "You may be killing someone" is a tremendous form of pressure, and it is EVERYWHERE. Besides you are not the judge of the strength of other peoples reasoning for getting vaccinated or not.

 

[trunks2k]

My children are allergic to the traditional flu shots and tamiflu. Anaphylactic allergic. I am SO utterly sick of this type of nonsense.

This is very different from what is being argued. If you have a medical reason to not get a vaccine, i.e. an allergic reaction, then nobody is saying you should get the vaccine. If you cannot get the vaccine, you should be heavily encouraging others who don't have a medical reason to not get the vaccine to get theirs. Them getting it helps protects you. If you can't get a vaccine, you are the type of person people refer to when they tell another person "failing to get vaccinated could kill someone"

 

[expos4ever]

I am NOT going to play games with my kids lives and I am so sick of others pressuring me to do so. Where is the compassion for them?

Deeply, deeply misleading.

No "pro-vaxxer" here has posted anything that would remotely come close to a suggestion that someone with a severe allergy to vaccines should get vaccinated.

 

[sfs]

Baloney. Rhetoric like, "You may be killing someone" is a tremendous form of pressure

It's intended to be pressure. If you've been paying attention, you know it's addressed to those who are arguing that they have no moral obligation to be vaccinated. And since, collectively, such people are indeed killing others, it's an accurate statement of the situation.

Besides you are not the judge of the strength of other peoples reasoning for getting vaccinated or not.

Who said I was? I am, like everyone else here, a judge of the strength of the reasoning that other people are presenting publicly. Here, on a discussion forum, so that other people can discuss it. If you are really concerned about judging, stop telling other people what their motives are for posting. You know nothing about my motives.

 

[topher694]

This is very different from what is being argued. If you have a medical reason to not get a vaccine, i.e. an allergic reaction, then nobody is saying you should get the vaccine. If you cannot get the vaccine, you should be heavily encouraging others who don't have a medical reason to not get the vaccine to get theirs. Them getting it helps protects you.

Again a perfect example of the problem:

"If you cannot get the vaccine, you should be heavily encouraging others who don't have a medical reason to not get the vaccine to get theirs"

Who are you to tell me what I and my family, "should be" doing?

 

[expos4ever]

At this point, it seems to me that you are trying to convince yourself.

Nobody is stopping you or others from vaccinating yourself.

Code for: I cannot explain how my refusal to get vaccinated squares with my claim to be concerned for others.

 

[topher694]

Um, what? There are certainly people who shouldn't be vaccinated for medical reasons, and they shouldn't feel under any pressure to be vaccinated.

It's intended to be pressure.

Pretty impressive to contradict yourself within 6 posts

 

[expos4ever]

Baloney. Rhetoric like, "You may be killing someone" is a tremendous form of pressure, and it is EVERYWHERE.

How is such talk "rhetoric"? The facts are clear:

- Covid can and does kill

- You have a vaccine available that will reduce the risk of death for you and for other people who breathe your air.

So, please, explain to us precisely how it is rhetoric or exaggeration to say "you may be killing someone" if you refuse to get vaccinated.

 

[expos4ever]

Who are you to tell me what I and my family, "should be" doing?

What?!

To be consistent, you would also need to believe that it would inappropriate for us to put social pressure on people to not drink and drive.

 

[expos4ever]

Pretty impressive to contradict yourself within 6 posts

Where has sfs contradicted himself (or herself)?

Please explain the exact nature of the contradiction.

 

[topher694]

What?!

To be consistent, you would also need to believe that it would inappropriate for us to put social pressure on people to not drink and drive.

perhaps you should actually read what I posted previously

 

[topher694]

How is such talk "rhetoric"? The facts are clear:

- Covid can and does kill

- You have a vaccine available that will reduce the risk of death for you and for other people who breathe your air.

So, please, explain to us precisely how it is rhetoric or exaggeration to say "you may be killing someone" if you refuse to get vaccinated.

The vaccine can and does kill too.

Not taking the vaccine can reduce the risk of death for some.

So, please, explain to me precisely how it is compassionate to pressure people who could be killed by the vaccine to take the vaccine?

 

[sfs]

Pretty impressive to contradict yourself within 6 posts

Pretty impressive how you edited out the part where I specified who it was intended to pressure: those who are choosing not to be vaccinated, those arguing that there is no obligation for those who can be vaccinated.

 

[topher694]

Pretty impressive how you edited out the part where I specified who it was intended to pressure: those who are choosing not to be vaccinated, those arguing that there is no obligation for those who can be vaccinated.

NO. What's impressive is how you responded to my post, but ignored what I was actually saying and used to to just continue your own narrative. I will make this clear for you:

I have felt pressured by people like you - saying the exact things you are saying - to get my family vaccinated despite the fact that my children are all potentially at high risk.

That was the point I was making with my post. Which you have obviously and conveniently ignored.