Staff and Member discussion thread.

[mishkan]

OK I admit that I'm a little slow sometimes and I am terrible remembering names (but I'm smart) lol. Who is Henry?

Now it is my turn to be slow.

Henry?

I don't know. Matthew, maybe?

 

[Jerushabelle]

Well, in my church experience, if someone starts the "Law of Christ" stuff - they mean "Everything but the 10 commandments is moot, no good, and I don't know why we even have this other 3/4ths of the book - it doesn't apply to me and it makes no sense".

First of all I think there are many changes ongoing in many American churches and I don't approve but, then again, I don't hang out in them. I'm just very aware because many of them are high profile. I'm speaking of the churches that focus solely on the NT. That's just not healthy if one is teaching about God. Who can understand God solely from the NT? It's impossible. This newer teaching style and outlook is where the "Law of Christ" comes from. It's not that it's not Scriptural. It is, but it doesn't mean the same thing from the sole perspective of NT teaching. The New without the Old is cut off from Christianity's foundation. Many are flocking to these churches because it just plain feels better. Prayerfully, God will bring them to a fuller perspective in time. I don't know, He's in control so I continue to pray for the Body as a whole.

I've never been in any Christian church that the 4th commandment is totally negated. The Church has undergone influences that removed it from the Judaic perspective. Many believe that Sunday worship is observing the Sabbath and it's quite possible that God's okay with that because it is the attitude of the heart that Scripture also indicates is very important to Him. God commanded a day of rest for us to share with Him. In Judaism and MJ, and others, that is the seventh day Sabbath according to the Judaic calendar. For others it's Sunday. I leave the judgment of things like this to God. I read the Scriptures and ask for His guidance and wisdom. I'm here in MJ because this is where He has led me and, oh look, there's others here with me! At first I think, this is cool, we're all here because we all believe the same but, uh oh, I find out that's not exactly the case. Okay, I go back to square one. You know, the place where I leave the judgment of things like this to God.

 

[Chaplain David]

Now it is my turn to be slow.

Henry?

I don't know. Matthew, maybe?

It's my end of day eyesight. As I relooked it was Henny not Henry. The only Henry I know on the forum is one of our esteemed advisors Hentenza whose name is Henry and I hadn't seen him enter our thread. How do you think it's going anyway?

Shalom Brother to you and yours.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Everybody's got a threshold when it comes to having their buttons pushed.

Others may have buttons that they may not be aware of, just as others are not aware of...though if there are buttons, sometimes people can end up being pushed into them/accidently pushing them without realizing it...only to be suspected negatively as trying to push buttons. Like someone using a certain term or phrase and others automatically reacting to it due to how it was used/associated in a negative sense....even though the person using the term may have an entirely different context that were speaking in. This seems to come up whenever certain terms are brought up (i.e. "The Lord's grace saves us", or "The Torah is to be Observed" and how both of those phrases have been used on all sides despite differences and yet they can mean differing things).

Because others don't say something a paticular way as they'd prefer it, folks can automatically assume they mean something other than what they intend---and refuse to listen when others explain exactly what they mean. And then from there come semantical battles to try seperating terms in the same way one tries to split hairs when people try to say terms like "Christian" have always meant differently than "Messianic" (despite how the term Messianic wasn't used remotely as extensive as the former throughout the history of the early Body of Believers).


Even from a perspective of simple interaction, often people will get tough skin due to how a certain action was done before that gave them a bad taste in their mouth----like having others being rudely sarcastic with them....and then assuming that all others using sarcasm in the attempt to joke/be light-hearted are trying to mock them or belittle them as others did.

 

[Qnts2]

MJ does not segregate Jews and Gentiles or make either group feel shame for how they dress. Main stream MJ accepts both groups as one people and neither forbids or demands a certain Jewish dress code

MJ does not segregate Jews and Gentiles, and it is certainly not the intent to make either group feel shame. MJ does accept both groups as one people.

But, some Messianic Judaism synagogues request Gentiles not to wear traditional Jewish dress, such as the Kippah. And if a woman chooses to wear a Tallis, they are asked not to wear a traditionally colored Tallis. And sometimes Gentiles who wear a Tallis are also asked not to wear a traditionally colored Tallis.

So yes, in many Messianic synagogues, the clothing is different. Since Messianic Judaism desires to share the gospel with the Jewish community, some of these things are different for the sake of the gospel. People are asked to adjust for the sake of the gospel and the Jewish people.

With the following, I am just trying to put forth a different perspective of Messianic Judaism.

A quote from Stuart Dauermann


'Rather than superseding the Jewish people, the Church from among the nations joins with them as part of the Commonwealth of Israel. Only in this way can the “dividing wall of hostility” – which supersessionism maintains – be removed. Gentiles are no longer categorically outsiders to the community of God’s people, but neither do they supplant Israel. However if Gentiles were required to obey Torah and live as Jews, one would be perpetuating their categorical exclusion as Gentiles. And it is a major component of the good news as proclaimed by Paul that this former categorical exclusion is over and done with through the work of Messiah!'

 

[Henaynei]

I don't know if Pat got to this or not...

Hi Pat,
As an observer from the outside would you mind explaining to me what one is being saved from? What is the Messianic perspective of salvation, or would it be the same as the view of salvation within mainstream Christianity?
Thank you

The Messianic Perspective is somewhat different from most of mainstream Christianity.

The Hebrew word Torah, often translated Law, actually means Instruction, as in Instructions from G-d.

We believe that it was Only the ordainances (aka judgments) that were "nailed to the Cross," not the Torah/Law/Instructions itself. G-d said, and Yeshua reiterated, that His Torah/Law/Instruction is eternal and good.

Our debt, our just sentence of eternal death for violating G-d's Torah/Law/Instruction, was paid in full when Yeshua, totally sinless because He was always 100% obedient to G-d's Torah/Law/Instructions, died on that tree.

G-d's Torah/Law/Instruction is the perfect gift given to Israel. It is not G-d's Torah/Law/Instruction that is faulty, it is us. 1Jn 3:4 defines sin cicinctly as "transgression of the Torah/Law/Instruction." The Torah/Law/Instruction is the flawless reflection of our Pure and Holy G-d, blessed be He, in written form. We were measured against it and found wanting, full of sin and unrighteousness. That is to say, we were measured against G-d's pureness and holiness and found wanting, full of sin and unrighteousness.

We are saved by unmerited Grace, through faith as demonstrated by our desire and efforts to obey G-d eternal Torah/Law/Instructions.

"faith without works is dead, being alone..."

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[Yahudim]

Do you really think you rant is helpful at ending this feud Tal? Are you prepared to keep going on as usual and also expect them to change and respect you In spite of your mudslinging? I realize you have been enduring a lot of threads being hijacked , but is this the answer?

Wow Tish,

You really don't get it. You view that as mudslinging? Really? Against who? Did you really read what I wrote?

I watched the video. I found the on-line study. I did some research. What I found was error. What I saw was bait and switch. I watched the video that everyone oohed and aahed over, praising it for minimizing the responsibilities of the Torah observant to that of irrelevant; 'like fighting over a penny'. It was a smear.

What they didn't tell you is that all they teach is mainstream Christian doctrine with some Hebraic window dressing, not that Hebrew roots is wrong. Its just that the whole presentation was both misleading and erroneous on the most basic level. It teaches that even if you are 'Torah Positive' as they called it, you may as well quit because it doesn't matter. Torah isn't for the New Testament believer. That message is against our SoP in case you missed it. And I was outraged! That video should have never been allowed in this faith group's forum - AND THE STAFF ALL MISSED IT! One of the Mods was even demanding that we watch it. Well I did.

They may as well have said, 'It just like fighting over an inch of dirt', knowing full well that stepping back that inch puts you over the precipice.

That wasn't mudslinging Deb, it wasn't personal. That was Theatre of the Absurd and an appropriate response to that hogwash:"We believe the Law of Moses as a rule of life has been fulfilled in the Messiah and therefore believers are no longer under its' obligation or condemnation. While the Law of Moses is no longer obligatory for believers, the Law has much to teach us regarding a joyfully Jewish way of life..." The makers of the study and the video, post this on their website and paraphrase it in this video.

And you didn't see it?

 

[Henaynei]

With respect we've heard that before. I think that, when you literally plead with Mods to do something to solve the problems and you actually go out of your way to come up with a working answer, and what is suggested is a minor matter for them - and it is neither rejected nor accepted or, on one occasion, you are told to tell someone else, I see no point in suggesting anything anymore. It might have been yesterday, but it breeds no confidence in anything actually happening today.

Well, however late you may deem it, they ARE investing quite a lot of time and effort in doing something now

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[Chaplain David]

First of all I think there are many changes ongoing in many American churches and I don't approve but, then again, I don't hang out in them. I'm just very aware because many of them are high profile. I'm speaking of the churches that focus solely on the NT. That's just not healthy if one is teaching about God. Who can understand God solely from the NT? It's impossible. This newer teaching style and outlook is where the "Law of Christ" comes from. It's not that it's not Scriptural. It is, but it doesn't mean the same thing from the sole perspective of NT teaching. The New without the Old is cut off from Christianity's foundation. Many are flocking to these churches because it just plain feels better. Prayerfully, God will bring them to a fuller perspective in time. I don't know, He's in control so I continue to pray for the Body as a whole.

I've never been in any Christian church that the 4th commandment is totally negated. The Church has undergone influences that removed it from the Judaic perspective. Many believe that Sunday worship is observing the Sabbath and it's quite possible that God's okay with that because it is the attitude of the heart that Scripture also indicates is very important to Him. God commanded a day of rest for us to share with Him. In Judaism and MJ, and others, that is the seventh day Sabbath according to the Judaic calendar. For others it's Sunday. I leave the judgment of things like this to God. I read the Scriptures and ask for His guidance and wisdom. I'm here in MJ because this is where He has led me and, oh look, there's others here with me! At first I think, this is cool, we're all here because we all believe the same but, uh oh, I find out that's not exactly the case. Okay, I go back to square one. You know, the place where I leave the judgment of things like this to God.

The old testament is daunting. First of all it's huge and then there are all these scenarios and characters. God bless us all, but many of us protestants do not know a lot about the old testament and I think that is one of the reasons we're not in there much except for Psalms, Proverbs, perhaps Genesis. But it's not only part of the Bible it's the first part and we all need to be in there, just as in the second. I have hanging over one of my doors, a beautiful ceramic plaque which says, "As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." (Joshua 24:15) OT all the way but also repeated in various ways in the NT. Try not to be too hard on those of us who are not very knowledgable about the OT. I can tell you, since meeting all of you my interest has just skyrocketed. But I do need some help with it as much of it's fairly new to me and I think in general we all need helpers and mentors besides God. That is one of the reason we are here, to help one another right?

God bless you Jerushabelle.

 

[Chaplain David]

With respect we've heard that before. I think that, when you literally plead with Mods to do something to solve the problems and you actually go out of your way to come up with a working answer, and what is suggested is a minor matter for them - and it is neither rejected nor accepted or, on one occasion, you are told to tell someone else, I see no point in suggesting anything anymore. It might have been yesterday, but it breeds no confidence in anything actually happening today.

Have faith brother, it takes what it takes. And some things not just on CF but in the secular world seem like such simple things to solve. And they take some time. But we're working on all of this and I believe we will come up with some powerful improvements. Remember, we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us. God bless.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

To me in reality Messianic Judaism is Judaism and/or Christianity but biblical Judaism or biblical Christianity.

If you've never see it, this is one video that I thought you'd enjoy...by Dan Juster on the subject of MJism and what it is about:

Messianic Theology in 15 Minutes - Daniel Juster ...

Dr Dan Juster (Biblical Love) pt1 - YouTube

Dr Dan Juster (Biblical Love) pt2. - YouTube​

 

[Qnts2]

Is Torah observance mandatory for salvation? No. After salvation, yes, it is as mandatory as a married person keeping the vows they made.

the majority of Messianic Jews will disagree. Not about the marriage vow but your statement that Torah observance is mandatory after salvation.

What do you think happens to those who do not keep the law?

 

[Jerushabelle]

If you're speaking of God's Word, then by default you're talking on Torah--as that simply means teaching/Law, something the Lord has given each generation in the scriptures, with what was said in one era differing in certain ways from another. It's why what Christ noted/did in expanding/giving completion to the Torah, as well as what was noted in the New Covenant (according to Hebrews) is also considered Torah as well. What we were given in the NT is different than what was present in the OT, even though aspects of the OT do carry over/are there for our examples as both edifications and warnings (I Corinthians 10, Hebrews 3-4, etc)...and as others noted best in another discussion:

Understood. But when I think Torah, and perhaps that is because of my Protestant background, I think the Pentateuch. When I think of Tenakh or Old Testament, I think of Torah, Nevi'im and Kethuvim. When I think of the middle books I think Apocrypha and when I think of New Testament, I think B'rit Hadashah. All told, to me, it is God's word...the Scriptures.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

The moral of the story of the video 'it's like we are fighting over a penney'.
.

The other video that I thought you'd be interested in, as Dr.Arnold did an excellent 5-Part series on the subject of positional truths for Jewish believers (seen here in Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum (All) )..And for others that really stood out:

Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum, Guest Speaker - What the Church Has Received From the Jews​

The Bible and Divine Revelation, Dr. Arnold ...​

The Lordship of Messiah, by Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum.wmv​

 

[Avodat]

Er, shouldn't all this debate about Torah be on the 'Anything Torah' thread? Could have sworn that point was made by the mods near the beginning of this thread.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Understood. But when I think Torah, and perhaps that is because of my Protestant background, I think the Pentateuch. .

Got ya. I go with others who also include things such as the Psalms (also referred to as Law as well, both by Christ and others) alongside the Pentateuch..and the Laws given to those who are NT believers as well.

When I think of Tenakh or Old Testament, I think of Torah, Nevi'im and Kethuvim.

Likewise..

When I think of the middle books I think Apocrypha

Apocrypha was a bit more extensive as the Middle books, unless I misunderstood you...but that's another issue which can perhaps be debated in another thread. More on the Tanak and the Apocryph as well as the B'rit Hadashah was shared before in another thread (seen here in #410 ). Additionally, if interested, there's actually an excellent book on the issue of how the Hebrew Bible came to be as it was---and how their view of "books" isn't necessarily the same as how we see it today. It's called Scribal culture and the making of the Hebrew Bible" by K. van der Toorn

​

For more, one can go online and consider the following:

• Scribal Culture and the Making of the Hebrew Bible
• Scribal Culture and the Making of the Hebrew Bible by Karel van der Toom - Biblical Archeology Review ...

The Apostles in their assembly didn't stay for long when they traveled from church to church. After all - how many churches can they visit and stay at, leaving others unvisited for months at a time? The Apostles taught them to listen to the Spirit. And they taught them to use the Septuagint for their Scriptural studies. It was only after the fact that their own letters, their memoirs written decades later, would be considered Scripture too. So does that mean that God was incomplete in their lives until these memoirs were written? And after their memoirs were distributed, does that mean God stopped revealing Himself to His children? Of course not...for there are others who've never had a Bible and yet did amazing exploits---and its amazing to see what went down with others who knew how to be led by the HOLY Spirit (just as it was with others whenever it came to their not having all the facts...like it was in Scripture who were only aware of the teachings of Christ or the Baptism of John rather than the new truth of the Holy Spirit (Acts 19)

and when I think of New Testament, I think B'rit Hadashah. All told, to me, it is God's word...the Scriptures

Feeling ya...

 

[Jerushabelle]

the majority of Messianic Jews will disagree. Not about the marriage vow but your statement that Torah observance is mandatory after salvation.

What do you think happens to those who do not keep the law?

Nothing because we are covered by the blood of Yeshua but we are to look to the Law for guidance in life. It is that by which we know what is wrong and what is right. It is honoring of God to try to be obedient to that which He commanded but for those things which Yeshua's death and resurrection changed. There's a balance between grace and the onus of responsibility to show forth fruit. We can't cheapen God's grace in either direction, so to speak. So, in a way, his statement is correct and in a way so is yours. At least that's how I see it.

 

[Jerushabelle]

Er, shouldn't all this debate about Torah be on the 'Anything Torah' thread? Could have sworn that point was made by the mods near the beginning of this thread.

Yeah but I thought we were sort of hashing things out for the betterment of the community.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I understand. In my understanding/experience, we have Messianics across about every field of Jewish observance, and a couple "flavors" of Christianity. Sometimes you walk in a place and know where they stand as far as their services, and sometimes it takes a while to find out. There are some who are pretty pushy about their beliefs without much explanation as to how/why, and there are others that are more "I'm ok, you're ok" - very positive places to be, with some common ground in place. It doesn't mean fights don't happen, but they're usually very well managed.
.

Everyone's at a different spot, some more low key and others living out loud

I really do think some of this is difference in personality types and some of it due to miscommunication.

I just wish we could work it out quickly.

With the Lord all things are possible...but if it doesn't get resolved either quickly or easily, folks can still rejoice that at least we're all still breathing/living life

Well, in my church experience, if someone starts the "Law of Christ" stuff - they mean "Everything but the 10 commandments is moot, no good, and I don't know why we even have this other 3/4ths of the book - it doesn't apply to me and it makes no sense".

Some say that I have a narrow view when I bring that up, but that is the bulk of the Christian outlook on this in the South where I have lived (VA, SC/GA, AL, MS, TX) and also overseas (Spain/Germany). There have been very rare exceptions to that. It doesn't mean there aren't any who disagree, there just aren't many at all where I've been and the thousands of people I've met in my life

Can relate, as it's odd whenever I talk to others about some of the beautiful things in the OT and the response is "Oh, that's just OT and Jesus wasn't for that!!!"....only to be surprised to see where he, as a Jewish man, lived it out while also working with Gentiles where they were at. All of it, to me, goes under the Law of Christ since whatever Christ advocated is what is to be Law for us....

 

[Lulav]

OK I admit that I'm a little slow sometimes and I am terrible remembering names (but I'm smart) lol. Who is Henry?

Mishkhan was quoting my post, but it doesn't show when you quote him. Actually you should have quoted my post for this question.

I was addressing a post made by Henaynei, 'we've always affectionately called her Henny since way back!