Staff and Member discussion thread.

[Messianic Jewboy]

Good points that the video seems to offer...although curious as to why you enjoyed it/what you got from it.

The moral of the story of the video 'it's like we are fighting over a penney'.

There isn't a significant difference worth debating over between Messianic believers and what was called Torah positive Messianic believers.

 

[Yahudim]

Hello Talmidim, I wonder if there is a better classification or designation or one even needs to be used at all. You know yourself that Jew has been used in negative ways and how utterly disgusting that is. I'm thinking none of us, should use Christian in negative ways either. One can say that about a lot of things. Shalom.

Hello David, I am open to suggestion. However, my point is this: There are a certain group of people. They engage in negative behavior. They coordinate their behavior as a group. They subscribe to a particular doctrine. You would like us to point out the behavior, just without saying who it is, what they are doing or why - due in part to the negative connotations it would have. I guess my question is how would you do this? Should we just use underscore characters and redact all of the pertinent information, like a secret government report? David, there are times when the damage being done outweighs the potential for negative connotations.

My indicating that Christians are engaging in this behavior is not an indictment of all Christians, only those involved. But my description of a doctrine that is almost exclusively Christian is not so easy to ignore or to couch in other terms. I don't call them 'skells' or 'dirtbags' to use a couple of pejorative terms from popular TV. I describe them as Christian, grace only, brother and sister. You aren't leaving me a lot of options.

The majority in this faith group is Torah observant to one degree or another (over 5 to 1 by the last poll), but Torah observant Messianics are BY FAR the minority at CF. We have already been marginalized to a sub-forum in order to discuss Torah observance. What next? Now we should ignore those that seek to reverse a century of progress in the Messianic movement, simply because the Mods and Admins share their anti-Torah bias? That doesn't seem fair.

You choose a moniker. That's what we'll call 'em. But it is their behavior, not the name that carries the negative connotation. What has been done here, in this faith group, is the functional equivalent of lumping Pentecostals and Roman Catholics into the same forum and then deciding that they can't use their denominational designations to refer to each other because it might sound derogatory. Let me tell you brother, there will be fireworks every time you have one group of people actively seeking to change the beliefs of another. So my question becomes, why (no matter their ethnic or cultural background) are, what are functionally grace only Christians, lumped in with Torah observant Messianics? I'll tell you. Because when this Messianic movement went a different way than the Hebrew Christians back in the '80s, the Hebrew Christians decided that they wanted the name Messianic too. To understand how this has affected us today, you must realize that these Hebrew Christians that sit as 'elders' of these so called Messianic organizations, are products of Christian 'the law has been done away with' missionary organizations. They are by doctrine: Christian.

The problem isn't that we don't like Christians; we love Christians. Most of us were once Christians. Most of our friends and family are Christians. The same can be said of our love for the Jewish people. What we don't like, is allowing any people come here and LABEL us, TELL US how to believe, WHAT to believe and HOW to act before ELOHIM. That is the problem, not because we identify them or their behavior by name.

Everyone is so understanding of the Jewish people's fear of assimilation. Believe me, Torah observant Messianics get it. But for some reason, you don't recognize the same process here. All over the English speaking web, assimilating or expelling Torah observant Messianics seems to be the agenda. We are the ones being marginalized. We are the targets of CONSTANT bombardment of the grace only doctrine, replacement theology and anti-Torah bias most of us tried to leave behind when we joined this movement.

Every couple of months, for years, the same discussions are held, the same problems arise, the same non-solutions are considered. If some of us seem desparate, you might want to ask yourself why. Because there are only three ways this can go and two of them are losses.

1) It can stay the same which is not a win. We will continue is strife and persecution by those that believe as you do.
2) We, the Torah observant and Israeli centric, can be expelled or forced to change our name (going with Qnts2's solution). Definitely not a win. Or
3) We can receive more than a passing tip of the hat for protection from the constant harassment of the doctrine police. That would be a win.

Most will say that the forum is diverse and that is good. I would agree. I like it this way. But until there is some control over who can qualify as a Messianic in this faith group, doctrinally as opposed to ethnically or racially or as a matter of convenience, we will continue to be assaulted and harassed. And we will continue to complain and in doing so, name our detractors.

But suggest away David. We are listening.

 

[Yahudim]

It is suggested that we should be grateful for the 'buffet' that CF has laid out for us and accept their largess with all due gratitude. The connotation is that we should just shut up and be happy.

We hear you David. Good point indeed.

 

[Chaplain David]

It is suggested that we should be grateful for the 'buffet' that CF has laid out for us and accept their largess with all due gratitude. The connotation is that we should just shut up and be happy.

We hear you David. Good point indeed.

Since the whole thing is free (accept for those who contribute) and you have a staff of dedicated volunteers to serve I think sometimes more gratitude is in order. However, I would never tell you to shut up. Going back into a few threads, remembering mothers words would be in order IMO, "it's not so much what you say but how you say it." You communicate very well and this is a discussion thread and everyone's kind participation is extremely welcome, wanted and appreciated. Just don't ask me about doctrine yet

 

[Chaplain David]

Hello David, I am open to suggestion. However, my point is this: There are a certain group of people. They engage in negative behavior. They coordinate their behavior as a group. They subscribe to a particular doctrine. You would like us to point out the behavior, just without saying who it is, what they are doing or why - due in part to the negative connotations it would have. I guess my question is how would you do this? Should we just use underscore characters and redact all of the pertinent information, like a secret government report? David, there are times when the damage being done outweighs the potential for negative connotations.

My indicating that Christians are engaging in this behavior is not an indictment of all Christians, only those involved. But my description of a doctrine that is almost exclusively Christian is not so easy to ignore or to couch in other terms. I don't call them 'skells' or 'dirtbags' to use a couple of pejorative terms from popular TV. I describe them as Christian, grace only, brother and sister. You aren't leaving me a lot of options.

The majority in this faith group is Torah observant to one degree or another (over 5 to 1 by the last poll), but Torah observant Messianics are BY FAR the minority at CF. We have already been marginalized to a sub-forum in order to discuss Torah observance. What next? Now we should ignore those that seek to reverse a century of progress in the Messianic movement, simply because the Mods and Admins share their anti-Torah bias? That doesn't seem fair.

You choose a moniker. That's what we'll call 'em. But it is their behavior, not the name that carries the negative connotation. What has been done here, in this faith group, is the functional equivalent of lumping Pentecostals and Roman Catholics into the same forum and then deciding that they can't use their denominational designations to refer to each other because it might sound derogatory. Let me tell you brother, there will be fireworks every time you have one group of people actively seeking to change the beliefs of another. So my question becomes, why (no matter their ethnic or cultural background) are, what are functionally grace only Christians, lumped in with Torah observant Messianics? I'll tell you. Because when this Messianic movement went a different way than the Hebrew Christians back in the '80s, the Hebrew Christians decided that they wanted the name Messianic too. To understand how this has affected us today, you must realize that these Hebrew Christians that sit as 'elders' of these so called Messianic organizations, are products of Christian 'the law has been done away with' missionary organizations. They are by doctrine: Christian.

The problem isn't that we don't like Christians; we love Christians. Most of us were once Christians. Most of our friends and family are Christians. The same can be said of our love for the Jewish people. What we don't like, is allowing any people come here and LABEL us, TELL US how to believe, WHAT to believe and HOW to act before ELOHIM. That is the problem, not because we identify them or their behavior by name.

Everyone is so understanding of the Jewish people's fear of assimilation. Believe me, Torah observant Messianics get it. But for some reason, you don't recognize the same process here. All over the English speaking web, assimilating or expelling Torah observant Messianics seems to be the agenda. We are the ones being marginalized. We are the targets of CONSTANT bombardment of the grace only doctrine, replacement theology and anti-Torah bias most of us tried to leave behind when we joined this movement.

Every couple of months, for years, the same discussions are held, the same problems arise, the same non-solutions are considered. If some of us seem desparate, you might want to ask yourself why. Because there are only three ways this can go and two of them are losses.

1) It can stay the same which is not a win. We will continue is strife and persecution by those that believe as you do.
2) We, the Torah observant and Israeli centric, can be expelled or forced to change our name (going with Qnts2's solution). Definitely not a win. Or
3) We can receive more than a passing tip of the hat for protection from the constant harassment of the doctrine police. That would be a win.

Most will say that the forum is diverse and that is good. I would agree. I like it this way. But until there is some control over who can qualify as a Messianic in this faith group, doctrinally as opposed to ethnically or racially or as a matter of convenience, we will continue to be assaulted and harassed. And we will continue to complain and in doing so, name our detractors.

But suggest away David. We are listening.

Perhaps it will be necessary to use names in the discussion but it is definitely welcome and not as embarrassing or confrontive to use group titles. I'm spouting though. I've done a lot of groups but Debi is the leader of this effort. She is the MJ. I am but a lonely Baptist minister trying not to get eaten alive by many people who know much more about theology than I do. I hope you realize that most of that was meant to be humorous except for the theology part. I am quite amazed despite not agreeing with everything.

 

[Chaplain David]

But the SoP, Rules and Forum specific rules do not allow other things - these should be understood before a person enters the thread. Most comments are tailor-made to the situation - so if someone (non-MJ) comes on here and starts to teach without being a Messianic they need to told that only Messianics can teach on these fora. Or if someone (non-MJ) comes on and starts debating, they need to be told that they may not debate. Both need to be advised that they should read the SoP for more information. Other Mods have agreed this system. However, we usually get protests because other fora on CF do not seem to have the same rules as here. When they have been told that they may not do A,B, or C (or even if we put it positively - you may only...) they simply go and change their icon, claim to be fully Messianic (or to have a Jewish bloodline somewhere in their ancestry) and just carry on posting anyway. This is the real problem here, as far as I can see in the few months I've been here. If we take up your suggested one-size-fits-all statement the obvious retort will be a demand for an explanation as to what is wrong with their post(s) and then we are back to debating with them why the rules are there etc etc etc. Then we get to the point where they are criticising CF (also not allowed) and we have to defend the rules. Far better to just tell them straight off what the rules allow and do not allow and to refer them to the SoP. In either case, they'll then simply change their icon and be back again with whatever agenda they want and we can do little about it because, within minutes, they appear to have had a blinding flash from G_d and change their religion! I've tried both ways round - positive and negative - and the responses are usually in line with what I have said.

I am hearing and understanding what you are saying. The powers that be with the input and suggestions from staff and members ultimately decide.

 

[Yahudim]

Since the whole thing is free (accept for those who contribute) and you have a staff of dedicated volunteers to serve I think sometimes more gratitude is in order. However, I would never tell you to shut up. Going back into a few threads, remembering mothers words would be in order IMO, "it's not so much what you say but how you say it." You communicate very well and this is a discussion thread and everyone's kind participation is extremely welcome, wanted and appreciated. Just don't ask me about doctrine yet

Sorry David, you didn't deserve that. Remember the sore thumb analogy? The one making those suggestions is one of those swinging the hammer. I'm just frustrated. Forgive me.

 

[Tishri1]

We'll always have people coming in with differing opinions, theology and convictions. And for the most part we can dance around each other. However when people come in with an agenda that is clearly against our SOP and will not back down or those who try to intimidate with threats and name calling, I think it's time for action. We have General Theology for those whose SOP is different and want to dabate. We do need a measure of protection against trolls and predators.
We also have the two subforums for those more or less Torah observant to feel save within their viewpoints.

Great illustration using dance to describe how we are with each other....I think we just lost our footing in here and are out of step but the song is still going and we can find it again soon
I agree this isn't GT and we need to treat this place like a family the way we always have

 

[Jerushabelle]

I was hoping for something a lot better than family!

 

[Tishri1]

Tishri,

I understand the desire for unity. Unity lies at the heart of comm"unity". And I am in full-on agreement that we should not be seeing anti-Torah argumentation, since the Torah is the root and core of all God's self-revelation to humanity.

However, there are a couple of details that I think need to be kept in mind regarding the ideas of "argument" or "name-calling"...

1. Unity does not mean conformity.

Differences of opinion (arguments) are not always bad things. There can be arguments "for the sake of Heaven" and arguments "NOT for the sake of Heaven". The first type is illustrated by the ongoing debates between Hillel and Shammai, which often became quite heated. The second type of argument is modeled by Korach's rebellion against Moses.
​

2. Labels.

Just like it is not wrong to identify a Christian flying the MJ icon, I don't see how it can be wrong to identify a set of beliefs by their proper appellation. The Messianic Movement has history, which demonstrates that the early Jewish Believers, acting by and for Christian missionary organizations, referred to themselves as "Hebrew Christians". That is beyond debate.

The title "Messianic" only gained real traction in the mid-1980's, as Jewish and Gentile Believers in the movement began to increasingly identify as part of the Jewish community. This is also clearly documented.

Basically, words have meaning. If one holds views that are consistent with Hebrew-Christianity, then one is a Hebrew Christian if Jewish; or just a Christian, if Gentile. If one identifies with the Jewish community, and approaches culture and theology from a Jewish perspective, then one is Messianic. This isn't name-calling, it is dealing with reality. Co-opting someone else's label doesn't change the meaning of the word.
​

That's just my 2 cents on the thread. Not trying to argue with anybody, but just point out that what seems mean-spirited or angry might sometimes just be passion and/or factual statements. Not everyone likes hearing the facts, and it sometimes leads to some tense moments. But that is often the very moment when God turns the lights on.

Avoiding argumentation because it seems more peaceful that way can sometimes parallel the well-meaning child who cut the cocoon for the poor, struggling butterfly, and thereby killed the butterfly.

If some one self Identifies as a Grace Only Christian that's one thing, but here it looks like folks are labeling MJ's who are not as Torah Observant as grace only Christians as a way to belittle them. Please don't do that anymore, as we all know that in MJ there are all levels of Torah Observance

 

[Tishri1]

The truth is the name calling and such should be addressed but the truth is there really isn't a standard in Messianic Judaism. The MJAA for example focus isn't Torah observance which doesn't mean Torah lessness. Their focus seems to be different than UMJC as an example. What's going on in the thread is everyone is trying to establish their own Messianic Judaism.

Or most likely putting in inputs that reflect the Messianic Judaism they are affiliated with.

And as we can see their isn't a standard.

This is soo true, Torah may be one thing that identifies the MJ movement but how observant an MJ is varies greatly

 

[Tishri1]

Hey Tish,

What was said was focused on the two main points, for what is it that is said of those who others deem to be Non-Messianic? The term that comes up often is "CHRISTIAN"...among other things. As it concerns the name-calling, are you asking for suggestions on how to address it--or saying that it will NOT be tolerated any further whenever others have differing levels of Torah observance?

It shouldn't be tolerated, and neither should an anti Torah agenda that is on going in this place, both are equally wrong

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

This is soo true, Torah may be one thing that identifies the MJ movement but how observant an MJ is varies greatly

I'm not too sure the birth of MJAA was really about Torah observance per se from reading and being involved.

 

[Jerushabelle]

This is soo true, Torah may be one thing that identifies the MJ movement but how observant an MJ is varies greatly

And I find this to be true of all Christians. There are enormous variations in the way that people exercise their faith.
Because of all that Jesus/Yeshua has done for us and the incredible love God has lavished upon us in the gift of His Son, we should be able to manifest that love in love for ALL believers, not just those who express themselves in Messianism. Both within and without Messianism, legalism needs to go.

 

[Tishri1]

That's a good question. It's obvious there is no standard in Messianic Judaism. Some organizations are Torah observant and that's their focus, some are focused primarily on Yeshua which doesn't mean Torah lessness, some are not Torah observant, some are 2 house etc. But all associate with Messianic Judaism. I like alot Dr F stuff but he's a dispensationalist but he's a Messianic Jew.

We need to allow those who identify with all their varied congregational beliefs to contribute here with out making them feel less MJ, and on the other hand, Torah observance is identified as an MJ trait so campaigns against Torah need to stop as well....Like Ani said we need to get back to learning how to dance around each other, out of respect, we need to lean how to get along

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

And I find this to be true of all Christians. Not Torah observant specifically, but the fact that there are enormous variations in the way that people exercise their faith.
Because of all that Jesus/Yeshua has done for us and the incredible love God has lavished upon us in the gift of His Son, we should be able to manifest that love in love for ALL believers, not just those who express themselves in Messianism. Both within and without Messianism, legalism needs to go.

It's interesting that the likes of Wesley and the Westminster Confession had different views of the law of God. They regarded it as important to the believer.
I'm not going to debate on the semantics of the moral, civil and ceremonial laws or saying or implying it's right or wrong to separate...check this out, It's not talking about what some call the Law of Christ but is referring to the old testament( from previous verse that I didn't post)

Westminster Confession; V. The moral law does forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof;[8] and that, not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it.[9] Neither does Christ, in the Gospel, any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.[10]

 

[Tishri1]

I agree with the SoP, in principle, but some of the detail does not get my agreement because of the way it is written.

I have suggested to the Torah posters that Torah debate should go to the new forum, but no success, I'm afraid - people want to hang out here plus - some debates that are not intended as Torah debates, end up being just that. How do we deal with them?

And while we are on it we are getting the usual number of visitors who do not even know the SoP is there and meant to be read - don't think I've met one yet that read it before posting, and even some staff question why these people are being challenged!!! And when you point out their restricted use of the forum as non-Messianics, you'd think the world would end, with some. I have suggested many times that where it says: 'A forum for Messianic Jews and Gentiles' it should also say: 'Visitors to this forum must read the SoP before posting here'. Just 11 words to remind people to look at our SoP before breaking in among us. Surely that could be done - that at least gives us some leverage (or levverage for you guys) to deal with such problems (though some of our posters do not bother, it has to be said, and freely enter into debate with non-Messianics).

Great suggestion ! And if you all see a Torah thread that should be moved to the sub forum send us a link so we can move it...or report it requesting it be moved to the sub forum

 

[Henaynei]

This is an old, OLD problem. One which has cost many who tried to uphold a standard and defend/protect this MJ forum.

Regarding faith icons, once upon a time it was decided and implemented across the board that gender and faith icons, once chosen, could not be changed without petition to and review by the mods, usually of the forum of the requested icon.

Quite some years ago that all changed here when the MJ forum was assigned a mod who refused to accept the faith standards of this forum, while admitting they were not, never had been and had no intention of becoming a member of any MJ congregation, maintained the icon of the denomination of their ordination yet insisted they were self identified as MJ and were to be given the latitudes as a full member of this forum. They got their way.

As I understand it, from the context of various threads and posts, icons can now be either changed by the members themselves OR are changed by the staff with very little critical review or research. Perhaps this can be changed AND the rule about what icons equal what type of posting privileges be consistently enforced.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[Chaplain David]

Sorry David, you didn't deserve that. Remember the sore thumb analogy? The one making those suggestions is one of those swinging the hammer. I'm just frustrated. Forgive me.

Brother, it is ok. Your frustration is understandable. Others are frustrated as well. We will work on this together. Shalom.

 

[Tishri1]

Is there a way to link the SOP somewhere visible for all to see - with only one click and it would take the poster to the SOP. Also, it seems that all someone has to do is choose an icon and it's theirs no matter if they agree to the SOP or not. We have posters flying the MJ colors that several posts in we all know they are not MJs, but they choose it so they can debate. Not sure how that could be rectified.

Thing is just because you say your MJ you still can't post against the sop so regardless the person has to post in conformance to the major accepted beliefs not campaign against them