Staff and Member discussion thread.

[MessianicMommy]

So, all we need do to build this "fair and impartial" forum is ignore the differing opinions within MJ and have an exclusive forum just for folks you agree with, right?

No, Brother, it is about getting along and respect for others.
We are, after all, told to think of others before ourselves.

Please do not take this the wrong way, I am trying desperately to "hear" this post in a positive light. One can be "fair and impartial" without ignoring differences.

I am a member of a wonderfully positive forum, that even in the intense fellowship areas, there is no finger pointing, rude dissention and such that we often find here on CF. It is a Christian forum, and the thrust is that we work positively together to try and understand where each poster is coming from.

Example:

Poster A says something that could come off as inflamatory, and the poster after says "OK, I'm trying to understand your post but am coming up empty. What do you mean by _____? Could you please go into depth a bit so I better understand your position?"

Or even IRL, an example would be someone cutting in line in front of you, or cutting you off in traffic. You choose how you react. Are you assuming the negative by how they acted (flipping them off, berating them from behind your wheel), or could there be something else going on, and you choose to respond positively? ("ah, there is someone behind this person bullying them in the left lane and they came in front of me to avoid an accident" or "ah, that exit ramp WAS awfully short..."

However, it is us who have to choose to be reactionary ("no! I do not like this!!") or working through it positively ("I enjoy reading your posts though we disagree.")


I LOVE this forum. I would love to see it transform in a more positive, workable way where we too have a safe haven where we don't feel accused and persecuted all the time and can go here to lick our wounds a bit and still hash things out.


With the various ages, personalities and cultural demographic we have - and how fast threads like these move, it is easy for there to be misunderstandings.

I have seen a couple in just the day I wasn't posting, and was getting caught up. sometimes it takes hours to get a thoughtful post on some content shared 6 pages back to get written and posted. In so doing, the poster who took a while is attacked for reacting negatively to something we agreed 2 pages ago not to discuss and move on with. Well, they were writing their post, how could they know we already agreed to not talk about it any more?

Maybe it ocurrs to me a little more at the moment because i am constantly mediating arguments between two children who are 18 months apart- Often times it is simply one's perceived idea of how the other is interacting with you, vs what has actually happened.

When we attribute negative motives to our children’s behavior we place them in a situation where there only recourse is to attack or defend themselves and exhibit more oppositional behavior. Bailey comments, “When the attack/defend process gets rolling communication and connection break down. ….When you learn to attribute positive intent to other people, you possess a powerful skill. It is the skill you need to transform opposition into cooperation.”

Assign Positive Intent: More On How To Handle Sibling Rivalry


I really love how Pastor Lutton puts it here:

No one wants to be a bully. No one enjoys beating people up or calling people names. These are expressions of internal pain...

So, when I respond to a situation where a child is being uncooperative or aggressive, I don’t start with addressing the behavior (although if someone is being hurt, I will start by putting a stop to that). Instead, I start with the heart; I talk to them, reflect feelings, and listen, and keep doing this until I understand what is causing this child to feel bad. Almost consistently, the poor behavior becomes irrelevant ...

Feeling Good, Acting Good — AOLFF


Yes, this is about parenting- however, it is just as much about how we should relate to others on forums. It is a whole other environment where people treat each other positively rather than negatively and punitively all the time.

I see this as a wholly workable solution, though it would certainly have kinks to iron out, and every poster would need a little help to see it happen. But, it could be done. It's not a pie in the sky solution, nor a "let's make another pidgeon hole" solution either.

 

[Chaplain David]

Just a Methodist congregation?

John 16:2 Putting out of the synagogues/churches they shall be doing ye.
But is coming an hour that every the one killing ye should be supposing a divine service to be offering to the God

LLOJ, Brother, this is an open no report thread for the Messianic Jew Forums and it's members. It was nice of you to drop in but you should drop out now as you are not a member here. God bless.

 

[Chaplain David]

A new day with new possibilities. It's good to be hear with you. I have some reading to catch up on but it's a good day for that. It's a little rainy so I started a nice fire and am drinking a wonderful cup of coffee. Now I will pray to open this day's activities. If someone would like to pray a Messianic Jewish prayer as well that would be lovely.


Heavenly Father,

Thank you for everything you do in our lives. I pray the very best for us to day here on CF in the MJ forums and that we make positive strides and use our effort and abilities to better get along, better understand each other, better fellowship together, and better learn from each other. I pray that this thread and our interaction will lead to the best Messianic Jewish Forum ever and the best human relations as well. I also pray that you enable us to better see your will for us and give us the strength and motivation to carry it out. Thank you Father for all of the blessings in our lives. In Jesus' name I pray, Amen.

Staff Members Participating in Report Free Thread:

Tishri1 - Christian Forums Administrator
Pdudgeon - CF Forum Supervisor Trainee
Angeldove97 - CF Moderator on Standby
Sacerdote - Forum Chaplain (1 of 2)

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

LLOJ, Brother, this is an open no report thread for the Messianic Jew Forums and it's members. It was nice of you to drop in but you should drop out now as you are not a member here. God bless.

Shouldn't it then say "MJ ONLY" in the title?
Just a little confused. Sorry

.

 

[Qnts2]

But all of those are Torah and have specific Mitzvot pertaining to how G-d said they are to be celebrated. According to 1Jn 3:4 it is sin to violate these Mitzvot. Yet you said, essentially, that if we sin we must have another sacrifice.

Help me understand were you find the authority to pick which Mitzvot you will or will not keep or do.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

Let me start by saying that from my view, those who say all must keep the Mosaic law, do a lot of picking and choosing.

To me it is clear that certain practices from the Tenakh are also part of the New Covenant.

I would be surprised if there was any Messianic who does not recognize the Jesus was celebrating Passover when He said do this in memory of Me. It is very clear that Passover is now a New Covenant Holy Day done in remembrance of Him.

If a person is familiar with the Mosaic law High Holy Days, and days to be recognized, then they will see a fulfillment and change of meaning brought into the New Covenant.

So, there is no doubt that the High Holy Days are brought forward. This is clear in both the Tenakh, which talks about the future Messianic age and the NT.

One thing the Christian church sometimes has issues with is that Jewish people act culturally Jewish. Jewish culture is influenced by the Mosaic law, so a Jewish believer will do things which appear to be the Mosaic law but is actually cultural. I say some of the Christian church as some view anything which resembles the law as putting someone under the law. (I view these churches as having made a law that they are not to do the Mosaic law). But the Jewish culture is different, and having lived for thousands of years with the Mosaic law, our cultural practices are somewhat merged with the Mosaic law. What I am trying to say is that I will do more of the law then I am mentioning, because I am Jewish and do by culture some of the law.

Is it worth starting a thread which goes thru each of the mitzvot, who they are directed towards, and if they can be done today in light of the diaspora, and if they make sense to do in light of Yeshua? (When I say in light of Yeshua I mean must they be altered which to me makes it no longer the Mosaic law).

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Let me start by saying that from my view, those who say all must keep the Mosaic law, do a lot of picking and choosing.

To me it is clear that certain practices from the Tenakh are also part of the New Covenant.

I would be surprised if there was any Messianic who does not recognize the Jesus was celebrating Passover when He said do this in memory of Me. It is very clear that Passover is now a New Covenant Holy Day done in remembrance of Him.

If a person is familiar with the Mosaic law High Holy Days, and days to be recognized, then they will see a fulfillment and change of meaning brought into the New Covenant.

So, there is no doubt that the High Holy Days are brought forward. This is clear in both the Tenakh, which talks about the future Messianic age and the NT.

One thing the Christian church sometimes has issues with is that Jewish people act culturally Jewish. Jewish culture is influenced by the Mosaic law, so a Jewish believer will do things which appear to be the Mosaic law but is actually cultural. I say some of the Christian church as some view anything which resembles the law as putting someone under the law. (I view these churches as having made a law that they are not to do the Mosaic law). But the Jewish culture is different, and having lived for thousands of years with the Mosaic law, our cultural practices are somewhat merged with the Mosaic law. What I am trying to say is that I will do more of the law then I am mentioning, because I am Jewish and do by culture some of the law.

Is it worth starting a thread which goes thru each of the mitzvot, who they are directed towards, and if they can be done today in light of the diaspora, and if they make sense to do in light of Yeshua? (When I say in light of Yeshua I mean must they be altered which to me makes it no longer the Mosaic law).

My post #418 sort of touched what you said. I repost a tid bit from that...

I'm going to give my 'thinking out loud' off the hip thoughts on this. Am I correct to say that being Jewish is not only ethnicity speaking but this ethnicity is tied, not tied in but is 'religiously' one? In other words by me saying I'm Jewish I'm saying that I'm a child of Jacob which whether you're a believer or not, 'religious' or not denotes biblically speaking. In other words my co workers know I'm Jewish in an ethnical sense but it's tied into a biblical sense or religious sense such as not accepting over time work on the Sabbath or taking off on high sabbath days etc, etc. Weird by default when someone asks me 'what are you?' My answer was always 'I'm Jewish'. Where as my co worker who's Italian and is catholic would answer 'I'm Italian'.

And I also mean it in a cultural sense. That being Jewish is ethnicity, cultural and 'religion' all wrapped up in one. For instance I'm often asked 'how can you be Jewish and believe in Jesus?'. Doesn't matter if I'm religious because it's all wrapped up. Make sense? The cultural part is a an expression 'religiously'.

So I can understand a Jewish person even though they weren't brought up in a religious sense because it's all wrapped up in the same being uncomfortable in a church when they first come to the Lord because it's not culturally in line. For me even though I never was never given a reason to feel uncomfortable in the Baptist church when I first came to the Lord, I still felt a bit uncomfortable at first. Now I'm not uncomfortable now at all because I learned to get past that and look at commonality, the Gospel. I'm just as comfortable now.

 

[Qnts2]

There are three possibilities.

First, they don't keep the law because they are not saved. You can guess what happens there.

Second, they rebel against the law. Dangerous, mostly in this life, but can cause loss of status in the next.

Third, they don't know any better. We are judged by what we know and how we apply it. This doesn't mean we will be in the same place of observance, as it takes time for us to change.

I would suggest adding another one to your list, related to the First, but I don't know how you would see it.

Some Jewish people who are not saved, do keep the law.

Since they are not saved, I assume your view is that the law keeping meant nothing?

If a Jewish person who is not saved, and keeps the law, later accepts Yeshua. Does their lawkeeping from pre-salvation enhance their status? Is it counted towards their status?

 

[mishkan]

Every believer has a relationship with the Torah, Neviim, Ketuvim and the NT. All scripture is profitable. For Jews and Gentiles, Messianic Judaism and Christian.

Then let me clarify my statement:

Christian theology, in general, maintains that the only relationship one may have with the Torah is adversarial. It demands and does not relent. It condemns, and brings only cursing.

The rest of Scripture, however, tells us that the Torah is the pathway to life, and a source of blessing.

So, when I say one "has a relationship" with Torah, I am using the phrase to mean a positive experience of living out the instructions provided to us by our loving Father. I would not call imagining one's self to be condemned by Torah being "in relationship".

 

[Qnts2]

My post #418 sort of touched what you said. I repost a tid bit from that...

I'm going to give my 'thinking out loud' off the hip thoughts on this. Am I correct to say that being Jewish is not only ethnicity speaking but this ethnicity is tied, not tied in but is 'religiously' one? In other words by me saying I'm Jewish I'm saying that I'm a child of Jacob which whether you're a believer or not, 'religious' or not denotes biblically speaking. In other words my co workers know I'm Jewish in an ethnical sense but it's tied into a biblical sense or religious sense such as not accepting over time work on the Sabbath or taking off on high sabbath days etc, etc. Weird by default when someone asks me 'what are you?' My answer was always 'I'm Jewish'. Where as my co worker who's Italian and is catholic would answer 'I'm Italian'.

And I also mean it in a cultural sense. That being Jewish is ethnicity, cultural and 'religion' all wrapped up in one. For instance I'm often asked 'how can you be Jewish and believe in Jesus?'. Doesn't matter if I'm religious because it's all wrapped up. Make sense? The cultural part is a an expression 'religiously'.

So I can understand a Jewish person even though they weren't brought up in a religious sense because it's all wrapped up in the same being uncomfortable in a church when they first come to the Lord because it's not culturally in line. For me even though I never was never given a reason to feel uncomfortable in the Baptist church when I first came to the Lord, I still felt a bit uncomfortable at first. Now I'm not uncomfortable now at all because I learned to get past that and look at commonality, the Gospel. I'm just as comfortable now.

 

[Qnts2]

I'm sorry but shouldn't all this be another thread? Are all these posts in relation to bringing our forum together or just another "teaching"? Didn't we have a "Paul" thread awhile ago? This seems a prime example of those who have no idea why this thread was started in the first place.

In my view, on this thread about being a community, even though we are diverse, and learning to view each other as the diverse Messianic Judaism community.

I have engaged in a discussion with people. It has been civil. We have agreed that we don't agree, and hopefully have 'heard' the thinking of those we disagree with, to at least understand them better.

In my view, that is ultimately where we need to get, which is what this thread is about. How are we going to live together in the same 'house'. The answer is, to learn to disagree civily and to learn to see each other as fellow Messianics.

So, these discussions, to me, are very much related to this thread. Can we learn to disagree civily, without the accusations, name calling etc.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I'm sorry but shouldn't all this be another thread? Are all these posts in relation to bringing our forum together or just another "teaching"? Didn't we have a "Paul" thread awhile ago? This seems a prime example of those who have no idea why this thread was started in the first place.

Since you brought that up, may I have permission to post a link to that thread?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7589021-47/#post58434275
[REPORT FREE THREAD] staff/member(MJ members) discussion "Discrediting Paul"

 

[Qnts2]

Then let me clarify my statement:

Christian theology, in general, maintains that the only relationship one may have with the Torah is adversarial. It demands and does not relent. It condemns, and brings only cursing.

The rest of Scripture, however, tells us that the Torah is the pathway to life, and a source of blessing.

So, when I say one "has a relationship" with Torah, I am using the phrase to mean a positive experience of living out the instructions provided to us by our loving Father. I would not call imagining one's self to be condemned by Torah being "in relationship".

Thanks for the clarification.

I personally will not remember that you make such a distinction, that relationship with Torah means keeping the Mosaic law. My apologies for that, but your view is very foreign to me, and I am not always good at
remembering who believes what.

From a Rabbinic Judaism point of view, (my before Yeshua view) God did the giving, so the relationship is with God and from God. God chose the Jewish people and gave them the Mosaic covenant. As a gift from God, the law is good.

From a Messianic Jewish point of view, my relationship is with Yeshua.
And the Torah is good, always has been and always will be. The Tenakh and the NT are one book.

 

[Chaplain David]

Then let me clarify my statement:

1. Christian theology, in general, maintains that the only relationship one may have with the Torah is adversarial.

2. It demands and does not relent. It condemns, and brings only cursing.

The rest of Scripture, however, tells us that the Torah is the pathway to life, and a source of blessing.

So, when I say one "has a relationship" with Torah, I am using the phrase to mean a positive experience of living out the instructions provided to us by our loving Father. I would not call imagining one's self to be condemned by Torah being "in relationship".

I do not feel an adversarial relationship with the Torah nor have I heard it mentioned among those with whom I associate. Can you refer me to scripture that supports what is stated in sentence 1?

Also, what is meant by the second part of the statement above labeled sentence 2?

None of my fellow ministers or any other Christians that I know feel this way. But I am not the fountain of all truth or the holder of all knowledge lol (wish I was sometimes) that would be God. So I'm asking for some support and clarification.

 

[Chaplain David]

Shalom

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

With the various ages, personalities and cultural demographic we have - and how fast threads like these move, it is easy for there to be misunderstandings.

I have seen a couple in just the day I wasn't posting, and was getting caught up. sometimes it takes hours to get a thoughtful post on some content shared 6 pages back to get written and posted. In so doing, the poster who took a while is attacked for reacting negatively to something we agreed 2 pages ago not to discuss and move on with. Well, they were writing their post, how could they know we already agreed to not talk about it any more?

Very accurate observation!

Members of this forum have always been very prolific posters. Discussions flow and evolve. Points that were relevant a page or two back in a thread, may not always be relevant to the current discussion, or the direction where it has drifted.

Such has happened to me on a number of occasions also. When this happens, while the thread is still on topic with the OP, and our reply is also; our reply may be "off topic" to the current discussion. When this happens, our post can sometimes be (or at least be seen as) out of context and even disruptive to the topic at hand. Most often, this is not the intent of the poster.

I think that this is something that we should consider before replying to a seemingly out of context post.

This is just a little thing, but if we try and consider this, we may avoid accelerating something that is not intended to be disruptive into a major issue.

 

[Chaplain David]

Shalom

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Please do not take this the wrong way, I am trying desperately to "hear" this post in a positive light. One can be "fair and impartial" without ignoring differences.

I am a member of a wonderfully positive forum, that even in the intense fellowship areas, there is no finger pointing, rude dissention and such that we often find here on CF. It is a Christian forum, and the thrust is that we work positively together to try and understand where each poster is coming from.

Example:

Poster A says something that could come off as inflamatory, and the poster after says "OK, I'm trying to understand your post but am coming up empty. What do you mean by _____? Could you please go into depth a bit so I better understand your position?"

Or even IRL, an example would be someone cutting in line in front of you, or cutting you off in traffic. You choose how you react. Are you assuming the negative by how they acted (flipping them off, berating them from behind your wheel), or could there be something else going on, and you choose to respond positively? ("ah, there is someone behind this person bullying them in the left lane and they came in front of me to avoid an accident" or "ah, that exit ramp WAS awfully short..."

However, it is us who have to choose to be reactionary ("no! I do not like this!!") or working through it positively ("I enjoy reading your posts though we disagree.")


I LOVE this forum. I would love to see it transform in a more positive, workable way where we too have a safe haven where we don't feel accused and persecuted all the time and can go here to lick our wounds a bit and still hash things out.


With the various ages, personalities and cultural demographic we have - and how fast threads like these move, it is easy for there to be misunderstandings.

I have seen a couple in just the day I wasn't posting, and was getting caught up. sometimes it takes hours to get a thoughtful post on some content shared 6 pages back to get written and posted. In so doing, the poster who took a while is attacked for reacting negatively to something we agreed 2 pages ago not to discuss and move on with. Well, they were writing their post, how could they know we already agreed to not talk about it any more?

Maybe it ocurrs to me a little more at the moment because i am constantly mediating arguments between two children who are 18 months apart- Often times it is simply one's perceived idea of how the other is interacting with you, vs what has actually happened.

Assign Positive Intent: More On How To Handle Sibling Rivalry


I really love how Pastor Lutton puts it here:

Feeling Good, Acting Good — AOLFF


Yes, this is about parenting- however, it is just as much about how we should relate to others on forums. It is a whole other environment where people treat each other positively rather than negatively and punitively all the time.

I see this as a wholly workable solution, though it would certainly have kinks to iron out, and every poster would need a little help to see it happen. But, it could be done. It's not a pie in the sky solution, nor a "let's make another pidgeon hole" solution either.

In my view, on this thread about being a community, even though we are diverse, and learning to view each other as the diverse Messianic Judaism community.

I have engaged in a discussion with people. It has been civil. We have agreed that we don't agree, and hopefully have 'heard' the thinking of those we disagree with, to at least understand them better.

In my view, that is ultimately where we need to get, which is what this thread is about. How are we going to live together in the same 'house'. The answer is, to learn to disagree civily and to learn to see each other as fellow Messianics.

So, these discussions, to me, are very much related to this thread. Can we learn to disagree civily, without the accusations, name calling etc.

Thanks very much these posts; both address the whole point of this discussion so well.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

If any of these things that have been posted in the last couple of pages will help us come closer together and accomplish our stated goals in the thread then I believe an understanding of beliefs is important. But I just saw Supervisor Mark's Mod Hat and we should follow it. So, where do we go from here?

Please see the two post's I quoted immediately following yours.

 

[Chaplain David]

Thanks Mark. If I would have been on the ball I would have seen your Mod Hat sooner. I apologize for that.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Then let me clarify my statement:

Christian theology, in general, maintains that the only relationship one may have with the Torah is adversarial. It demands and does not relent. It condemns, and brings only cursing.

The rest of Scripture, however, tells us that the Torah is the pathway to life, and a source of blessing.

So, when I say one "has a relationship" with Torah, I am using the phrase to mean a positive experience of living out the instructions provided to us by our loving Father. I would not call imagining one's self to be condemned by Torah being "in relationship".

There are some who call themselves Christian that do seem to view the Torah the way in which you stated; some even seem to have grown to hate it.

For the vast majority of Christians of all denominations, and for the most part, within the Denominations and Churches, it's my experience that this is not the case.

Such observances and practices are viewed as pious belief/pious practice; at the very least; adiaphora.

That being said, those who are zealously anti-Torah are like all "zealots" in that they squawk the loudest; so when one reads their posts, it is very understandable that one may perceive that such is a majority view. Rest assured that they are in the minority.