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Every thread doesn't need to be replied to, my advice is to avoid threads that you don't agree with
Easy G (G²);60052157 said:Really, it is isn't all that different from what happened in the early body of believers when there were differing levels of Hebraic/Messianic thought amongst the Jews, some more so toward the Ebionite side of things concerning feeling they were meant to follow all aspects of the Mosaic Law given to the Hebrews, whereas there were others in varying levels of what they felt was necessary of Gentiles. And within that, the battles the Pharisees had amongst themselves...as evidenced in the School of Shemai (feeling Gentiles had to live as the Jews) vs the School of Hilel (which was for Gentiles following what Noah was about). One big happy family
This illustrates basically our difference of understanding. I think that you can't clean a window with a hammer. To say that "most Christians believe that the Torah has been done away with" without understanding that there are a number of qualifying factors on the subject is to in fact make a case against "most Christians" that simply is not true. Anyone with a NT will discover that there are portions of the Torah that are no longer necessary. "Most Christians" are prepared to face that fact and accept it.
However, to make a statement that insinuates that "Most Christians" have no reverence and no regard to any part of the Torah is a slanderous lie, as almost every major Christian denomination not only teaches the moral law but the devout portion of its membership adheres to it, something some MJs, who gab on about the law incessantly, could learn from. The fact of the matter is that every mainstream catechism in history begins with the commandments. This is not evidence of "doing away" with the Torah.
Perhaps your cause would be better served by the elimination of such broad reaching and misleading statements such as "most Christians believe that the Torah has been done away with"
Hi EZ, I hear ya, let's keep this discussion focused on the two main points I addressed in the OP though ok? One being debating against Torah and the other, name calling, or calling folks who identify themselves as MJ non-MJs
This illustrates basically our difference of understanding. I think that you can't clean a window with a hammer. To say that "most Christians believe that the Torah has been done away with" without understanding that there are a number of qualifying factors on the subject is to in fact make a case against "most Christians" that simply is not true. Anyone with a NT will discover that there are portions of the Torah that are no longer necessary. "Most Christians" are prepared to face that fact and accept it.
However, to make a statement that insinuates that "Most Christians" have no reverence and no regard to any part of the Torah is a slanderous lie, as almost every major Christian denomination not only teaches the moral law but the devout portion of its membership adheres to it, something some MJs, who gab on about the law incessantly, could learn from. The fact of the matter is that every mainstream catechism in history begins with the commandments. This is not evidence of "doing away" with the Torah.
Perhaps your cause would be better served by the elimination of such broad reaching and misleading statements such as "most Christians believe that the Torah has been done away with"
As my friend says: You should always try and walk a few miles in someone elses' shoes...by that time you are a miles from them and they don't have any shoes, so it's their problem!
(Sorry to make light of that phrase - couldn't resist. But you are right!)
I was in a short period of my walk with the Lord that I got caught up in 'you must keep the Law and if you don't...' or posting in ways that would suggest if you don't keep the Law you are going to be least.
Then I started to think about Messianic Judaism. I was born and raised Jewish in between reform and conservative which has always been an expression of traditions. It wasn't until recently because of this discussion that took me back. My family has always kept what they could in a traditional sense. We never built a Sukkot at home but we helped the synagogue build one as an example and we went in it. Much like the video I posted in a traditional sense. Traditionally speaking it wasn't in a binding sense it was what we do. Like in the Fiddler on the Roof, 'how did this tradition get started?'... 'I don't know'. But then he says it's a tradition, everyone knows who He is and what God expects.
I'm positive that most Messianic Jews view the holidays in this sense. But what is found in these traditions is fulfillment of 'the One who Moses in the Law and the prophets did write'.
What I'm saying I don't want anyone to take it the wrong way, I'm sharing my experience and I think I speak for the majority of Jewish believers not to make any distinctions. I asked a great friend of mine who isn't Jewish who is also a fellow congregant about his wanting to be involved in the movement and how he views and feels about the high holidays and such. And does he ever feel these 'traditions' are binding? I wear a kippah in synagogue he doesn't as an example. He said he doesn't feel pressured to wear one or not wear one. He doesn't have a Seder at his home but will go to the community Seder and a family Seder on the 1st night at one of his Jewish friends he grew up with. I wish he would post here, I'll ask him.
Am I making sense?
Maybe you can answer this cause honestly I don't know. I agree that there are Christians who heed the likes of Wesley and the Westmister Confession in regards to the Law of God. But I also see a more prevelant Law of Christ 'crowd'. From what I have gathered the Mosaic Law has been rendered done with and we are now under the Law of Christ. Although there a lot of resemblance between the two that doesn't mean the Law of Christ includes any Mosaic Law/s. One big diffidence I can see is that the Law of Christ doesn't include the 4th commandment.
So it a 'you say potatoe I say patatoe' type of thing?
MessianicMommy said:Well, in my church experience, if someone starts the "Law of Christ" stuff - they mean "Everything but the 10 commandments is moot, no good, and I don't know why we even have this other 3/4ths of the book - it doesn't apply to me and it makes no sense".
Maybe you can answer this cause honestly I don't know. I agree that there are Christians who heed the likes of Wesley and the Westmister Confession in regards to the Law of God. But I also see a more prevelant Law of Christ 'crowd'. From what I have gathered the Mosaic Law has been rendered done with and we are now under the Law of Christ. Although there a lot of resemblance between the two that doesn't mean the Law of Christ includes any Mosaic Law/s. One big diffidence I can see is that the Law of Christ doesn't include the 4th commandment.
So it a 'you say potatoe I say patatoe' type of thing?
I have argued against these broad sweeps with the brush (or what I call the Americanisation of what ALL Christians are supposed to believe, live like or have services like) which often appear on these threads. People do not understand that it can be offensive and that most Christians in the rest of world do not believe or act like many American congregations appear to, according to a number of disaffected Christians on the MJ fora.
I see it rather more simply than that, brother. Loving one's neighbor fulfills the "Law of Christ", and loving God etc....you know that. To me, the word "Torah" is a loaded term around here, and that loading has made the term meaningless.
When someone who claims to be Jewish tells me that they are "Torah observant Messianics"...I have no idea what they believe, how they live, or what the Torah means to them. It's just a trendy throw-away line to me. The big questions are not addressed in such relative religiosity. Do they visit the sick? Feed the poor? Usually not. Usually they are basically religious in their heads but their hearts and hands are pretty much non-observant.
I know this from experience. As a minister of Jewish background and rearing, a lot (and the number is rising) of people come to me with questions about being Jewish and so forth. I have found that they are prepared to learn about Judaism, the OT feasts etc...but when I invite them to actually live Torah and work at our soup kitchen....they run a mile.
I think Jesus was really on to something in all this. He really does say that the heart of the Torah is love of God and neighbor, and when I see that this heart of the Torah is "too hard" for people wanting to be "Torah observant", I really think all the arguing about which law is done by whom and when etc is a complete waste of time.
What's worse (and now I will vent a little) is that these same kind of characters will then go around judging me as "not observant" or "not Jewish enough" or whatever strange fantasy enters their minds in order to hide their own guilt. The fact is that I own, daily use and treasure tefillin, a tallis or two etc. I study the Shulchan all the time. I read the Talmud. I do my best to attend to Moedim, but that sometimes must be put aside for service to my people and neighbor. I am, in fact, an authentic Messianic Jew. The difference is that I don't need to advertise. I wear my kippa on the inside, where it matters most.
So, when I see Christians teaching the commandments and preaching from the whole counsel of scripture and then going out and feeding the poor and visiting the sick...I agree with Jesus and say "well done thou faithful servant". I don't need to judge their observance of religious rituals or adherence to the feasts given to the Jewish people. That's not my job. I'm here to encourage the same mitzvahs that Jesus did, and I'm not here to make everyone a Jew.
Hope that helps....although I may have missed your question entirely! Sorry in advance.
The Law of Christ believers believe that the Mosaic Law is done with and we are now under the Law of Christ.
Others such as Wesley and Westminster confession don't say we are under a new law being the Law of Christ, but the moral of the Mosaic Law isn't done away with because of Christ, in fact is establishes it.
See the difference?
Templar right now you are prime example of what we MJs are trying to fix. You're anger towards anyone disagreeing with you is not the solution to our problem but instead fuel for the fire. We do not see you fellowshipping or edifying in our forum and yet you want to come in and tear down anything we are trying to build. And according to our SOP you are in violation. Messianic Judaism observes Torah and feel it is not done away with. And now you want to change that? Why? You don't even post in here. Why now?
The Law of Christ believers believe that the Mosaic Law is done with and we are now under the Law of Christ.
Others such as Wesley and Westminster confession don't say we are under a new law being the Law of Christ, but the moral of the Mosaic Law isn't done away with because of Christ, in fact is establishes it.
I've been reading about this. The Law of Christ is called dispensational compared to the moral of the Mosaic law being called covenantal theology. Covenantal theologies say the moral of the Old Testament, dispensationalists say the Law of Christ is completely new and has nothing to do with the Mosaic law or has no relation to it. I think the Puritans were what's called covenantal beliefs.
See the difference?
I think Jesus was really on to something in all this. He really does say that the heart of the Torah is love of God and neighbor, and when I see that this heart of the Torah is "too hard" for people wanting to be "Torah observant", I really think all the arguing about which law is done by whom and when etc is a complete waste of time.
What's worse (and now I will vent a little) is that these same kind of characters will then go around judging me as "not observant" or "not Jewish enough" or whatever strange fantasy enters their minds in order to hide their own guilt. The fact is that I own, daily use and treasure tefillin, a tallis or two etc. I study the Shulchan all the time. I read the Talmud. I do my best to attend to Moedim, but that sometimes must be put aside for service to my people and neighbor. I am, in fact, an authentic Messianic Jew. The difference is that I don't need to advertise. I wear my kippa on the inside, where it matters most.
So, when I see Christians teaching the commandments and preaching from the whole counsel of scripture and then going out and feeding the poor and visiting the sick...I agree with Jesus and say "well done thou faithful servant". I don't need to judge their observance of religious rituals or adherence to the feasts given to the Jewish people. That's not my job. I'm here to encourage the same mitzvahs that Jesus did, and I'm not here to make everyone a Jew.
Hope that helps....although I may have missed your question entirely! Sorry in advance.
Hello, I will respond here because it is a good place to add my thoughts.
Mainstream Christian church doctrine believes that Mosaic Law has transitioned, you can say, done what it was supposed to do, etc. Although some hold closer to the law than others and others, not at all except in the way the Law is rewritten in the new testament. In all cases the place of Christ is above the law.
But in the case of our forum it is like Tish said (and I paraphrase), the MJ Forum adheres to the Torah and it should not be critisized or made light of. Neither should those followers who are more strict in their adherence to the law.
On the other side of the coin, those MJ believers who are not as close to the Torah and as strict about following it should not be made light of nor should they be critisized.
We can do this
Shalom
Hello, I will respond here because it is a good place to add my thoughts.
Mainstream Christian church doctrine believes that Mosaic Law has transitioned, you can say, done what it was supposed to do, etc. Although some hold closer to the law than others and others, not at all except in the way the Law is rewritten in the new testament. In all cases the place of Christ is above the law.
sacerdote said:But in the case of our forum it is like Tish said (and I paraphrase), the MJ Forum adheres to the Torah and it should not be critisized or made light of. Neither should those followers who are more strict in their adherence to the law.
sacerdote said:On the other side of the coin, those MJ believers who are not as close to the Torah and as strict about following it should not be made light of nor should they be critisized.
sacerdote said:We can do this
Shalom
Hello, I will respond here because it is a good place to add my thoughts.
Mainstream Christian church doctrine believes that Mosaic Law has transitioned, you can say, done what it was supposed to do, etc. Although some hold closer to the law than others and others, not at all, except in the way the Law is rewritten in the new testament. In all cases the place of Christ is above the law.
But in the case of our forum it is like Tish said (and I paraphrase), the MJ Forum adheres to the Torah and it should not be critisized or made light of. Neither should those followers who are more strict in their adherence to the law.
On the other side of the coin, those MJ believers who are not as close to the Torah and as strict about following it should not be made light of nor should they be critisized.
We can do this
Shalom
I serve in a 'mainstream denomination' and there is no way the law is re-written in the 'new' testament. Yeshua was quite clear on this and, when asked which is the most important law, he opted for part of Torah (the Sh'ma)! Paul also writes that the law is good and still in effect and that he believes in it, and in the writings of the prophets as well.
Yeshua was subject to the law when walking this earth - he is not above it, he is it! He it is to whom the Spirit points.
I haven't seen any anger flying around yet but it is early. If anyone wants to get angry about any of this go eat a jelly donut. We're not here to argue but to DISCUSS and be PROACTIVE in coming to agreements, resolutions, solutions and in following the direction that the forum wants to go (which isn't 100% written in granite).
When we approach each other it should be in love not in resentment and with chips on our shoulders.
Please if this applies to anyone I hope that you pay attention. I know it does not apply to most of you.
God bless us in our effort to make our forum better.
Shalom.
. Loving one's neighbor fulfills the "Law of Christ", and loving God etc....you know that. To me, the word "Torah" is a loaded term around here, and that loading has made the term meaningless.
When someone who claims to be Jewish tells me that they are "Torah observant Messianics"...I have no idea what they believe, how they live, or what the Torah means to them. It's just a trendy throw-away line to me. The big questions are not addressed in such relative religiosity. Do they visit the sick? Feed the poor? Usually not. Usually they are basically religious in their heads but their hearts and hands are pretty much non-observant.
I know this from experience. As a minister of Jewish background and rearing, a lot (and the number is rising) of people come to me with questions about being Jewish and so forth. I have found that they are prepared to learn about Judaism, the OT feasts etc...but when I invite them to actually live Torah and work at our soup kitchen....they run a mile.
I think Jesus was really on to something in all this. He really does say that the heart of the Torah is love of God and neighbor, and when I see that this heart of the Torah is "too hard" for people wanting to be "Torah observant", I really think all the arguing about which law is done by whom and when etc is a complete waste of time.
What's worse (and now I will vent a little) is that these same kind of characters will then go around judging me as "not observant" or "not Jewish enough" or whatever strange fantasy enters their minds in order to hide their own guilt. The fact is that I own, daily use and treasure tefillin, a tallis or two etc. I study the Shulchan all the time. I read the Talmud. I do my best to attend to Moedim, but that sometimes must be put aside for service to my people and neighbor. I am, in fact, an authentic Messianic Jew. The difference is that I don't need to advertise. I wear my kippa on the inside, where it matters most.
So, when I see Christians teaching the commandments and preaching from the whole counsel of scripture and then going out and feeding the poor and visiting the sick...I agree with Jesus and say "well done thou faithful servant". I don't need to judge their observance of religious rituals or adherence to the feasts given to the Jewish people. That's not my job. I'm here to encourage the same mitzvahs that Jesus did, and I'm not here to make everyone a Jew.
Hope that helps....although I may have missed your question entirely! Sorry in advance.
Luke 18:9-15
The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector
9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: God, I thank you that I am not like other peoplerobbers, evildoers, adulterersor even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.
13 But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, God, have mercy on me, a sinner.
14 I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.
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