St. Anthonys' Monastery Exposed

[gurneyhalleck1]

I sometimes wonder if there's something wrong with me. I have absolutely ZERO interest in monasteries or monks or the monastic life. It seems like every Orthodox I have met, right after conversion (or during!) develop a fascination and deep interest in monasticism. I never went through that "milestone." I still have zero interest. I tried reading some monastic works, just didn't connect with it. For me, as a married man, a father of three, I want to see how Orthodoxy can help me live out my days and help me function as a human being interacting with my children, wife, students in my classroom, pesky teachers who annoy me to no end, principals, administrators, parents, and so much more. Spending my days in a quiet cell or just painting icons, having no kids, just working in vineyards or tilling soil most of the day, staying quiet mostly, praying, going to bed, repeat, that just doesn't resonate with me. I respect the people who choose that, but I have noticed in Orthodoxy there is a deep fascination with monastics, and monastics have a huge say in theological, moral, and lifestyle matters. I never felt that degree of monastic interest in Catholicism when I was in that church. It's still an adjustment. No judgment against these good folks, but I just can't summon the energy to care about it? I think sometimes, wow, that must make me one lousy guy and crummy Orthodox Christian!? I don't care about sketes and this situation at all? Am I defective or what?

 

[Anhelyna]

I visited this Monastery [ Holy Protection ] this summer - absolutely wonderful experience and found the nuns there very welcoming -I've got lots of Photos that I took there .

 

[Kristos]

All I can say in what I have seen. St Anthony's is amazing - millions of dollars went into building that place. A lot of money is involved.

 

[Lukaris]

I sometimes wonder if there's something wrong with me. I have absolutely ZERO interest in monasteries or monks or the monastic life. It seems like every Orthodox I have met, right after conversion (or during!) develop a fascination and deep interest in monasticism. I never went through that "milestone." I still have zero interest. I tried reading some monastic works, just didn't connect with it. For me, as a married man, a father of three, I want to see how Orthodoxy can help me live out my days and help me function as a human being interacting with my children, wife, students in my classroom, pesky teachers who annoy me to no end, principals, administrators, parents, and so much more. Spending my days in a quiet cell or just painting icons, having no kids, just working in vineyards or tilling soil most of the day, staying quiet mostly, praying, going to bed, repeat, that just doesn't resonate with me. I respect the people who choose that, but I have noticed in Orthodoxy there is a deep fascination with monastics, and monastics have a huge say in theological, moral, and lifestyle matters. I never felt that degree of monastic interest in Catholicism when I was in that church. It's still an adjustment. No judgment against these good folks, but I just can't summon the energy to care about it? I think sometimes, wow, that must make me one lousy guy and crummy Orthodox Christian!? I don't care about sketes and this situation at all? Am I defective or what?

I have not visited a monastery for over 4 years & lost touch with an awareness of monastic piety. I doubt I will ever regain much of a connection to it except to refer to the teachings of a saint for theology.

Monastics still witness most of what is considered Orthodoxy though & we should refute any misrepresentations of them.

 

[gzt]

I think you're doing just fine, gurney.

As for the OP: are you okay?

 

[ArmyMatt]

I sometimes wonder if there's something wrong with me. I have absolutely ZERO interest in monasteries or monks or the monastic life. It seems like every Orthodox I have met, right after conversion (or during!) develop a fascination and deep interest in monasticism. I never went through that "milestone." I still have zero interest. I tried reading some monastic works, just didn't connect with it. For me, as a married man, a father of three, I want to see how Orthodoxy can help me live out my days and help me function as a human being interacting with my children, wife, students in my classroom, pesky teachers who annoy me to no end, principals, administrators, parents, and so much more. Spending my days in a quiet cell or just painting icons, having no kids, just working in vineyards or tilling soil most of the day, staying quiet mostly, praying, going to bed, repeat, that just doesn't resonate with me. I respect the people who choose that, but I have noticed in Orthodoxy there is a deep fascination with monastics, and monastics have a huge say in theological, moral, and lifestyle matters. I never felt that degree of monastic interest in Catholicism when I was in that church. It's still an adjustment. No judgment against these good folks, but I just can't summon the energy to care about it? I think sometimes, wow, that must make me one lousy guy and crummy Orthodox Christian!? I don't care about sketes and this situation at all? Am I defective or what?

I don't think there is anything wrong with you. what monasteries offer us folks in the world, is a place to leave the world for a time, and spend a weekend or something in silence and prayer. I love them not because I am called to be a monk (and I am married to there goes that), but because they give me a spiritual recharge when I visit.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I sometimes wonder if there's something wrong with me. I have absolutely ZERO interest in monasteries or monks or the monastic life. It seems like every Orthodox I have met, right after conversion (or during!) develop a fascination and deep interest in monasticism. I never went through that "milestone." I still have zero interest. I tried reading some monastic works, just didn't connect with it. For me, as a married man, a father of three, I want to see how Orthodoxy can help me live out my days and help me function as a human being interacting with my children, wife, students in my classroom, pesky teachers who annoy me to no end, principals, administrators, parents, and so much more. Spending my days in a quiet cell or just painting icons, having no kids, just working in vineyards or tilling soil most of the day, staying quiet mostly, praying, going to bed, repeat, that just doesn't resonate with me. I respect the people who choose that, but I have noticed in Orthodoxy there is a deep fascination with monastics, and monastics have a huge say in theological, moral, and lifestyle matters. I never felt that degree of monastic interest in Catholicism when I was in that church. It's still an adjustment. No judgment against these good folks, but I just can't summon the energy to care about it? I think sometimes, wow, that must make me one lousy guy and crummy Orthodox Christian!? I don't care about sketes and this situation at all? Am I defective or what?

Sounds to me like you're doing ok, Gurney. Your focus is just as important, and something those of us who are not monks all have to learn to deal with.

I didn't realize it was some kind of common fascination. And I also didn't realize it was different for Catholics.

TBH, the first books I read (before I ever went to church as an adult) were various books I came across on eBay written by a variety of monastics. Many were probably Catholic, and some I think Orthodox. I was living a life that had some things in common with their way of life anyway at that time. So it resonated very well with me, and helped me a LOT.

I've kept a slice of interest ever since, but I didn't realize it was something of a convert phenomena. If anything, my interest has probably decreased slightly during the process, for me.

Anyway - I do think you're fine. Just commenting on you bringing those things out, because I didn't really know those things.

 

[GregConstantine]

you're fine gurney, its just that some converts get hyperexcited about monasteries and monaticism for similar reasons why they become enamored with Russian culture or Greek culture while they are not Russian or Greek. All of the Orthodox life, married, monastic, family, is ascetical, its just that monasticism is one expression of that life, but its the same life for every baptized believer. Why some converts do this (and its mostly converts from protestantism) I don't know. Its unhealthy and sometimes obnoxious,

 

[Ioustinos]

Gurney,

I think there is a danger to become obsessed with monks and monasticism. However, I find monasticism to be of great help even as a married man.

As ArmyMatt said we can visit monasteries to recharge our batteries and clear our minds and hearts. There is something serene in joining a group of individuals for a few days filled with prayer and silence. Plus one can receive some words of wisdom and encouragement from the monks.

In addition we can learn lessons from monastics - such as humility. For instance a monk may be rebuked wrongly by the Abbott in order to promote humility. As a married man, I can learn from this when my wife gets angry and calls me a jerk. I can be humble and resist arguing back knowing that a) I probably am a jerk sometimes and that b) it is pleasing to The Lord to bear reproach in silence and humility when we are falsely accused. Not every aspect will crossover but much can be learned. The monastic life is a microcosm of the world.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Lots of good replies. Thanks, everyone. My batteries are low in general. Last week, I woke up Sunday morning exhausted, burned out on my job, tired of driving an hour to Fresno to go to Church, and I just wasn't spiritually well-disposed to do it. I had a sour attitude. The little things that drive me nuts REALLY drove me nuts---my deacon/godfather's Alfalfa-like screetching of the liturgy (trust me, I'm not the only one who feels like someone is running their fingernails over a chalkboard when he "chants"...), the liturgy seeming unnecessarily long, putting a teenager in charge of the nativity play, poor communication lately with my priest, and honestly I've just felt a bit perplexed by my priest. He asked me to be a reader IMMEDIATELY when I was chrismated. I said I'd do it, but very soon felt nervous about it, not ready, and I felt I needed to really get my feet wet as an Orthodox Christian before becoming a reader. The Lord was just telling me to slow down and it'll come. My priest took my name off the list. About a year later, I told him I was ready, and he said he'd get me started with it. Nothing. Then I told him again one day at coffee hour. He said, "great!" and said he'd be in contact with me. Then I asked a third time like 4 months later. He said that he'd be sure to put me on the list and show me the ropes. Nothing. I think the fourth time he said the same thing, then finally the FIFTH time a few months back, he took me and showed me how to do it. He spent about a half hour showing me. After that, what does he do? He has a parishioner with a quiet, weak, struggling voice do it. People were scratching their heads. Then had an altar boy do it! He was awful. Then after that he had his 19 year old son do it. His son was dreadful. He wouldn't even chant it or try. He said it in a flat, unenthused voice. Then another week he had a choir director do it, then his son again in the flat, bland voice. A few of us were just left scratching our heads.

Father has a memory like an elephant. He's just rebuffing me. At this point, I'm just letting go of the idea. I guess he is telling me, "Hey, buddy, you had your chance the first time. You balked. I am moving on" in his own subtle way? I don't know. But I know after five times and multiple conversations, he knows I want to do it. I lead the post-communion prayers after liturgy, and my voice, while not perfect, is loud and I try to be melodic. Several people have told me I'd be a great reader.

So just putting up with the drama of that place, a lot of people passing me by at coffee hour no longer really saying hi to me or wanting to sit with me, the super long liturgy, feeling a touch rejected, the long and annoying drive, and just feeling like we're second class citizens there thanks to the drive limiting what we can do, I'm pretty fried. I'm sick of the whole thing at this point.

And for the first time in a while, I'm just sick of Orthodoxy. I know it sounds awful and I sound like a real dirt bag. I'm just out of steam and dragging. I'm tired from work, my own kids are wearing me out lately, I'm working myself to death, I'm alone a lot from my wife leaving, I still have the horrendous back and neck pain, and this whole Orthodox thing is utterly mind-numbingly tiring at times.

Anyway, sorry for the blathering rant, everybody. Thanks for your input about monasteries.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Hey Gurney, I'm not sure if this is good advice or not but ... are there other parishes within driving distance that you could visit? Just a change of scenery, meet some new people? Maybe have a sit-down with a priest somewhere else? A mission parish, or a monastery? Anything?

I'm just wondering if that would help. You've been a great encouragement to me, and I wish I had something to offer you. But it sounds like more than anything, it's the people that are causing a problem, and I would hate to think of it souring Orthodoxy for you. Unfortunately we are all human and we all let each other down sometimes, and in many ways. But maybe if you can be built up by the Church in some way, without being torn down by the personal problems at the same time, it would help you?

 

[Damaris]

Dear Gurney,

Please don't worry about telling everyone about what's troubling you. Your feelings are understandable.

Is it possible that your priest sees how much you are dealing with these days, and doesn't want reading to be the straw that breaks the camel's back? Maybe the priest doesn't know, but it's possible that he would not think the parishioner under stress, especially one with a long commute such as you have, would benefit from more demands on his time and talents.

 

[Anhelyna]

Gurney - believe it or not I'm going through much the same struggle as you at present.

This is part of what I emailed to my Confessor on Saturday evening pretty late on. I knew he would read it as soon as it came in , but didn't expect a reply.

I really don't want to go to Liturgy I'd love an excuse to be absent.

I'm tired of people coming at the last minute and rushing away as fast as they can afterwards.

I'm tired of them wanting it to be a very quick Liturgy - just the minimum [ thinking of the Antiphons ]

I'm tired of folk who don't come to Church, thinking they should be on the Committee as they know what the Ukrainians want .

I'm tired of folk who think that Church is only for Sunday.

Oh there was more than just that I got a very quick response saying we would talk by Skype on Sunday evening and we did and he knew exactly what I was meaning .

I'm still struggling . And I'll continue to struggle for as long as I can. I have our Vicar General [ he's Mitred but not our Protosyncellus - he's 3rd from the top in the UK ]'s blessing to head over to my Confessor any Sunday I need a 'spiritual top-up ' as he also knows our Parish and the folk and the problems here - and believe me we have problems in spades Of course the snag with that is that my Confessor isn't even in the UK !!

 

[Euthymios]

Take no offense, but when someone did underhanded things like faking suicide as the man in the video did, it is hard to take their allegations seriously.

Again, THIS IS NOT ABOUT THE MAN IN THE VIDEO. You NEED to PAY attention! You are guilty of the fallacies of Ad Hominem (personal attack) and Red Herring (shifting the focus). If you are going to assert he cannot be taken seriously, then you need to give an ARGUMENT in support of that assertion. Whether he faked suicide or not is NOT THE POINT. This complaint is about FATHER PAISIOS. He left a person alone when he threatened suicide! A person can be totally insane (which he isn't), and still have a perfectly valid argument. You are assigning blame in the wrong place, because your mind-frame does not permit you to analyze things objectively, logically and scientifically.

The man in the video also claims to have forgiven father Paisios, who even let him come to the monastery after all the accusations, yet the man is still making videos trying to expose him.

AGAIN, THAT'S NOT THE POINT. THIS IS NOT ABOUT THE MAN WHO MADE THE VIDEO.

Clearly father Paisios should have been more involved initially during the suicide threat, and later he should have been more conciliatory. However, with all the emails and letters that the man in the video was sending, I can hardly blame father Paisios for being standoffish. If the life of the monk is one devoted to prayer, then you really don't have time to answer 5000 emails from some guy with a grudge (whether it is right or wrong). Just my 2 cents.

It wasn't 5000 emails. Standoffishness is never justified in a Christian person.

 

[Euthymios]

The monastery seems pretty standard.

Is it standard in your mind for a priest to ignore a suicidal threat? How much time have you spent with them, and how much personal research and experience do you have with them? I read online that three monasteries on Mount Athos said that St. Anthony's Monastery is not healthy.

Some people cannot take being told what to do. I have seen many military members put under suicide watch because they could not take the stress of constant criticism from the lifestyle.
A mentally unstable person should take time off from being a monastic and get help.
Most "demons" can be treated with the right medicine and some self TLC.

The man in the video was not told what to do. Your point has no relevance.

 

[Euthymios]

But this might be the question to ask before creating a duplicate of a thread that has been locked. Very possibly the new thread is against the rules, if the old one was locked for a reason.

This thread is not a duplicate, so your point is irrelevant.

 

[Euthymios]

I don't like the tone of the video. He assumes that unless the monastery takes on his problems, they are lacking in Christian love. That doesn't follow and thus the tenor or the video appears to be calumny.

My protestant parents visited the monastery and came way very impressed. I don't see why I should change my impression on the monastery based on this video.

You created a straw-man, and now are trying to tare it down. The video is not about a man issuing a complaint because the monastery failed to take on his problems. It's about a priest who ignored a suicidal threat, and the refusal of Fr. Paisios' to answer spiritual questions. Calumny is making of false statements. You did not prove that anything in the video was false. Obviously anyone who visits a monastery is going to be treated well. The point is that this is an example of the true colors.

 

[Euthymios]

I got two minutes in and stopped listening.

That's the problem. You don't have enough information to draw an opinon.

Who goes around testing theories about people by claiming they are going to commit suicide?

The video is not about the person who threatened suicide. You need to focus and pay attention. The video is about a priest who ignored a suicidal threat.

We also don't know the content of the conversation this guy had. We're getting an extremely vague and edited version. This guy could have been making all kinds of demands, et cetera.

So you draw conclusions based on speculation and lack of information (you only listed to two minutes?) No demands were made.

In such a scenario, Fr. Paisios ' saying that there wasn't anything more he could do for this guy would have been correct.

"If" such a scenario? Since the premise of your argument is unproven. The conclusion is equally fallacious. Even if we granted the premise were true, the concluision would not follow because there is always more that a person can do. But your missing the main point. The point is that Fr. Paisios ignored a suicidal threat.

Prayer would be the only option.

NONSENSE. What is so hard about telling someone to go to the hospital, or to call a friend, or call the monastery? There is always more that a person can do. I am growing increasingly disturbed about the mentality of Greek Orthodox people.

In light of the suicide deception, we can easily come to the conclusion that we're not dealing with someone who is working with a full deck.

Again, this is NOT ABOUT THE MAN IN THE VIDEO. Pay attention! This is about a priest who thought himself so important that he felt he had the right to ignore a suicidal threat. It was the monastery itself that said the man in the video had a very good head on his shoulders. Lastly, you would need to prove incompetence. But it's irrelevant, because it's NOT ABOUT HIM.

I know people who have had great experiences at St. Anthony's. I also know someone who had a negative experience there (my husband). A monk was pushing him to be re-baptized (convert that was chrismated). Despite this, I think that overall the monastery is good.

Again, that's not the point. You're committing the Red Herring Fallacy. Whether the monastery is good to people in person at the monastery is totally irrelevant.

 

[Euthymios]

having been to St Anthony's and having gone to confession with Fr Paisios, and having been to two other Ephraimite monasteries, I can say this is garbage.

What precisely is garbage? How do you account for the fact he ignored a suicidal threat? And the fact he pushed a person away who had spiritual questions? If Fr. Paisios' makes claims and excuses then you need to demand proof. And assuming a reason is given, you need to judge whether the reason given justifies his having ignored the canons and teachings of the Church? Fr. Paisios' could have been perfectly nice to you at the monastery (he was nice when I visited as well), but it's totally irrelevant.

to say he lacks Christian love and prudence, and has a bad will is just incorrect.

Again, how do you account for the facts expressed in the video? You did not Address a single point made.

they said the same stuff about Elder Joseph the hesycast.

You're going into the "persecution mode complex." Maybe what they said about Elder Joseph was true. But you're engaging in the Red Herring (shifting focus). I don't have time for this. You're not focusing and paying attention.

 

[Euthymios]

Euthymios, no offense but have you been to St Anthony's or met Fr Paisios? Are you willing to judge based on the internet account of someone else you have never met?

I am the one who made the video.