Spiritual Core

random325nicaea said:

O RLY?
all the answers ay?

then use your biblical knowledge to tell me what becomes of gravity on a quantum scale?

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I don't know. I suspect that the quantum scale objects that are measured would be present state objects, therefore, something similar to Newton's ideas would still apply. What likely causes weirdness of some things on a quantum level, is time travel. But that is a long story.

or perhaps the bible could tell me what the genomic sequence is for a cancer marker protien?

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That depends on time as well. If we were talking about the new heaven state, there would be no marker, and no cancer. If we were talking about the people in the former state here on earth, after the fall, we would still have death, and disease, but it would be different. So different we live a thousand years. If we are talking about the present state, I doubt the bible would delve into temporary sin state details of a particular disease, and it's effects on a protein. It did speak of multitudes and more multitudes of sick people getting healed as the spiritual factor was infused into the physical. That is important. Simply noting how we die is not what the boof of life and love and peace is about.

Nathan Poe said:

Yep -- definately a fruitcake.

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Nya, what you think is up wit that doc needs a second opinion.

Amoeba said:

The whole universe is spiritual. Buddhists pick up on this very well.

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I think you misunderstand. I think it is physical. At least the temporal state we are in. I also thingk the etrnal state coming is physical, and spiritual together.

I do. You could be wrong so to say this conclusion is what bible believers "must" arrive at is short-sighted.

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Then show us why. Show us your bible case.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you calling people who believe in a scientific explanation of natural phenomenon "pagans"? If so, I'd have to say you'r way off the deep end.

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Frankly, I don't much care what you would say, as far as who is nuts or not. But when talking of the creation debate, I found there are many atheist minded folks out there, and pagan oriented. Doesn't mean all scientists are. Some may be honestly in the dark. Unaware they are not even close..etc.

As for proof of a hot iron core...go to wikipedia and search "earths core"...

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There will be none there. Feel free to make a point from there if you like. In actual fact, science does not know. I am confident of that.

Amoeba said:

What do you want me to show you?

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Whatever you claim the bible says. You seem to insinuate it is opposed to a DSP.

If you don't care what I say, then why I should even entertain what you say?

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I don't care if you do or not, frankly. But the point was that I don't care who you think is nuts. If you have a valid science or bible point on the topic, it is fine.

Hopefully, you don't have the misconception that believing in evolution makes you pagan or atheist. Because it doesn't. Reconciling science with your belief in the bible is hopefully the course you take, I hope, lest your sincere belief in Jesus becomes the laughing stock of non-believers.

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Sorry, I don't much care what unbelievers find funny either. The bible clearly says that the universe was created, and all life. Any evolving must fit into that. Period.

So you reject out of hand hard scientific data?

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No. I simply see none to prove a same state past. Nothing to reject.

Science does know. You reject out of hand the huge volume of data used to develop our knowledge of the structure of the earth. You probably didn't even bother reading about the subject.

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You are ill informed on what I do, or don't do, or think, or not. There is no data on a same state past, it is a mistaken notion, with no proof. Huge, or small.

Amoeba said:

The bible says the universe was created, not how it was created. I think I prejudged you to be a creationist, so I argued as if you were one. But I hope your statement "any evolving must fit into that" means what I think it means. Glad you could reconcile your belief in the bible with the scientific model of natural history.

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Well I hope that whatever you think it means works out well for you.

I certainly don't believe in a "same state past". The universe is dynamic, always changed, entropy. I would have thought the Big Bang Theory destroyed the static universe theory years ago.

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That theory couldn't punch it's way out of a cup of soup. And it has nothing to do with the state of the universe in the past.

Agreed, the universe isn't static, or "same state". Perhaps I misunderstood your point of view thinking you were a literalist creationist. My bad.

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Perhaps you did. Perhaps you still do. I might suggest reading the thread. It could help.

HappyCat said:

For once, he's actually got a point. The main reason for reading it is cheese related.

(Don't expect any illumination on how Dad's bizarre fantasies are linked to either the Bible or reality though.)

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The point of the thread is that the spiritual is real as well as the physical, and that they are to be combined in the future. That is the key to the past. Don'rt expect to be able to avoid it.

HappyCat said:

When I was asking you before about why God didn't just make the incorruptible state from the start, you said what's quoted above. At the time I think I missed an important point.

You appear to believe that your God, who you say is omniscient and omnipotent, decided to conduct an "experiment" that he already knew the outcome of with 100% certainty. This mis-named "experiment" has led to the suffering of countless millions of people, some of whom will spend eternity suffering (some of those just for not believing that any "God" worth worship would behave that way).

Tell me again why God didn't make reality #3 from the start. Either I don't understand your logic or you worship a God that "kills us for his sport". Worse, he tortures us for his sport. Even worse, he doesn't even let us die to get away from the suffering.

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Well, that depends on what is reality # 3. The state of the universe was not the experiment. He knows already how to make a universe. The experiment was a demo for all the universe, which includes spiritual beings. At least as I see it. The results of going away from God and His spirit, are tragic. That resulted in the surface of the earth for men being cursed. And in death, and sin. As I see it, the universe was still in a created state, however. This allowed for lonng life spans. By the time of the flood or so, it was apparent that man was so wicked that thinngs had to be changed. Most of the population had to be killed, in order to save the race at all. In order to allow some men to carry on, and the saviior that was promised to come one day.

But it seems the life span of man had to be shortened. Imagine if Hitler was still alive today, and had another 900 years to live! Also, it sems that the spiritual needed to be separate from the physical. The sons of god were right here mingling in the world of men. Some people feel that their impact was quite real, such as building, or helping to build the pyramids, etc.

The effect of a changed universe had also the effect in man of scattering the tongues. And the continents to boot. No longer was man building up to the spiritual level, it was gone from his grasp. No longer in sight.

Even if one continent got real wicked pretty fast, there were now others. There was time for the savior to come. History has always been all about Him. It still sets the calendar. It has determined who got to rulle the kingdoms of the world as well.

No longer would all men be lost and doomed to account for their own sins. The tempporary prison of men would no longer be needed after He sees that the harvest is ripe. When He sees that the saved are safely removed, and the wicked stand in open rebellion. What was started at Babel, will come to it's conclusion. The rebellion of man, wicked man, will be dealt with.

A new heavens will forever come to exist. The ones we know, this universe state, will forever be no more, it will pass away.

The state and reality of man rests solely on his acceptance or rejection of Christ. Now, and forever. Amen.

HappyCat said:

I was referring to the third state of matter - #1 was before the fall, #2 is the current PO state, #3 is the forever state of the future. Have I got that wrong?

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Well, the created state was the original creation universe. The surface (ground) where man lives, was cursed after that. But it is my deduction so far, that the rest of the universe was still in the created state, except for the surface of the earth. That is why light was different. And the fabric of the uniiverse that affects decay, and life processes. About a century and a bit after the flood, there was a universe state change. And, of course, the new heavens will be the forever state one day. I surmise that it is like the created state.

You haven't answered my point about why God would set up an experiment that he already knew the outcome of with 100% certainty. An outcome which includes millions of souls in torment for eternity.

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How would we know?? I suspect that He is not the only one in the universe, or universe(s). He also knows about the millions and billions, and sextillions, etc that will be born in the future from mankind. So, now all life anywhere will have a real demo of what happens when they leave Him. And a lot of great reasons to not repeat the experiment.

You haven't explained (in any way that I can understand) what the point of the so-called experiment was. Why didn't God just set up his creation to be incorruptible from the start, if that's what's going to happen anyway after a few thousand years? Surely beings could be drawn closer to God without it being necessary for other beings to suffer?

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See above. But as far as I know, He did set it up to be eternal, including man's life. Since man chose another way, the universe had to be changed. Temporarily.