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Spirit - Soul - Binding problem of consciousness

Resha Caner

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The use of mathematics is only part of the study and description.

I've nothing against speculation, but you yourself said it's unlikely (and can't be known) that we understand subjective experiences in the same way. We've already seen in this thread that, though a certain collection of words might mean something to you, I struggle to understand it. It's as if ... (cough) it's a bit beyond us. Likewise, there is a (Godellian) aspect to the axiomatic side of things where, though we can be very certain we're talking about the same thing, we also know there is part of that system that is unreachable to both of us.

I guess I'm OK with the idea I'm finite and will never be able to know all things - that no one will ever be able to know all things. I speculate consciousness, at least in part, laps into that unknowable realm. It seems you don't want to go there.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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I've nothing against speculation, but you yourself said it's unlikely (and can't be known) that we understand subjective experiences in the same way. We've already seen in this thread that, though a certain collection of words might mean something to you, I struggle to understand it. It's as if ... (cough) it's a bit beyond us.
Natural language communication of personal experience is always complicated by subjectivity, but difficulty understanding meaning is usually due to unfamiliarity with usage or context, or mistaking the usage or context, or incorrect usage, or insufficient information.

Likewise, there is a (Godellian) aspect to the axiomatic side of things where, though we can be very certain we're talking about the same thing, we also know there is part of that system that is unreachable to both of us.
I don't understand what you're saying - our subjective experience is mutually inaccessible, but I don't know what you mean by a 'Godellian aspect' of 'the axiomatic side of things' means or how it's relevant to subjective experience.

Perhaps you could explain what you mean by that?

I guess I'm OK with the idea I'm finite and will never be able to know all things - that no one will ever be able to know all things. I speculate consciousness, at least in part, laps into that unknowable realm.
I see no reason why we can't discover all that is possible to know about consciousness; it seems to me that the objective description and subjective experience are two 'views' of the same thing - physical brain activity.

But I think a problem may be that some people won't find the answers they're looking for or expect to find because their questions may be based on false premises. IOW, we're discovering that, in many ways, our phenomenal experience is misleading - for example, we experience the activity of multiple functional 'modules' in our brain as an integrated coherent whole, our perceptions are modified to make them consistent with our expectations, and so-on.

It may be that the 'hard problem' of consciousness will reduce to brute fact - that we'll find that when systems perform the particular kinds of information processing that brains perform, they will have subjective experience, and that we'll eventually understand how this occurs; from this it would follow that we could, in principle, make truly sentient artificial systems (though whether it would be practical is another matter).

It seems you don't want to go there.
I don't know where you got that from. I'm happy to go anywhere it's possible to go in this subject. Ideally, I would like to everything of interest that is possible to know about consciousness. But I seriously doubt I'll be around long enough for all the interesting questions to be answered.
 
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Ophiolite

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Resha Caner

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Perhaps you could explain what you mean by that?

I meant that both subjective and objective descriptions seem to have their own dead ends, even if they reach them for different reasons.

I see no reason why we can't discover all that is possible to know about consciousness;

Well, of course, when you make it a tautological statement. If it's possible to know something about consciousness, then yes, it's quite likely we'll know it someday. That does nothing to address whether there is something about it we can't know.

I'm happy to go anywhere it's possible to go in this subject.

Mmm. One of my favorite things is to challenge the foundations, but few seem to share an interest in that endeavor. I mean, if it amounts to challenging my foundations, well and good, but beyond that ...
 
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Ophiolite

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Mmm. One of my favorite things is to challenge the foundations, but few seem to share an interest in that endeavor. I mean, if it amounts to challenging my foundations, well and good, but beyond that ...
Very confusing. Was that meant to convey a sense of distrust as to FB's remarks, even an implication of dishonesty on his part? If not, then for this reader, a rephrasing would be useful.
 
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Resha Caner

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Very confusing. Was that meant to convey a sense of distrust as to FB's remarks, even an implication of dishonesty on his part? If not, then for this reader, a rephrasing would be useful.

Not at all. In all seriousness, I have never questioned @FrumiousBandersnatch in terms of sincerity. He doesn't seem the type to play games. It was merely an indication of where my interests lie and the failure of past conversations with others that have delved into that area. I can only think of one or two times that someone made what I consider a deep dive to the foundations with me and the conversation remained civil.
 
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Ophiolite

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Not at all. In all seriousness, I have never questioned @FrumiousBandersnatch in terms of sincerity. He doesn't seem the type to play games. It was merely an indication of where my interests lie and the failure of past conversations with others that have delved into that area. I can only think of one or two times that someone made what I consider a deep dive to the foundations with me and the conversation remained civil.
Thank you for clarifying. I have been following your discussion with FB, but the subject post had left me confused.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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I meant that both subjective and objective descriptions seem to have their own dead ends, even if they reach them for different reasons.
I suppose all descriptions end when they have described their subject as fully as they can.

If it's possible to know something about consciousness, then yes, it's quite likely we'll know it someday. That does nothing to address whether there is something about it we can't know.
I guess that makes it one of Rumsfeld's 'unknown unknowns'.

Mmm. One of my favorite things is to challenge the foundations, but few seem to share an interest in that endeavor. I mean, if it amounts to challenging my foundations, well and good, but beyond that ...
Your point is opaque, but it sounds like a veiled snark. Meh - if you have a criticism, just say it.
 
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the iconoclast

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the iconoclast

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I hope that's just my online posts, otherwise it sounds creepier than ever...

Hey hey Friend :)

Haha ;D

No need to be concerned.

It would cause an unpleasant feeling of fear or unease if i could research anything other than what you post on cf.

Even though I'm spirit filled and zealous for Christ, my powers do not extend that far my dear. :D

Cheers
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Hey hey Friend :)

Haha ;D

No need to be concerned.

It would cause an unpleasant feeling of fear or unease if i could research anything other than what you post on cf.

Even though I'm spirit filled and zealous for Christ, my powers do not extend that far my dear. :D

Cheers
Ugh... I just realised who your posts bring to mind - Uriah Heep in David Copperfield. It's the unctuous manner and specious pleasantries. Having previously asked you to refrain, I assume you can't help it.
 
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the iconoclast

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Ugh... I just realised who your posts bring to mind - Uriah Heep in David Copperfield. It's the unctuous manner and specious pleasantries. Having previously asked you to refrain, I assume you can't help it.

Hey hey :)

I can only be who i am my dear. Uriah heep? That's an old band :D

Rock on dude :oldthumbsup:
 
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