Spirit - Soul - Binding problem of consciousness

FrumiousBandersnatch

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But I do think human consciousness is unique and offers a unique advantage. It's the unique facet I am asking about, though if you don't think humans unique, that will make the conversation difficult.
I think human consciousness is unique; we have uniquely specialised cognitive skills that give us a unique advantage. But as I said, I don't know of any particular aspect of human consciousness that is not present to some extent in other animals.

I'm more curious about your thoughts on the topic. But if you're curious about mine, I suppose we can try to have 2 parallel conversations.

First off, I don't see spirit as "unseen" or "additional" in the sense of some ethereal thing that affects us but we can't interact with it. I don't think our brain is one material thing and our spirit is another immaterial thing with each acting independently of the other. I see them as parts of an integrated whole. I do expect, though, you wouldn't approve of my thoughts on the matter. I'm not interested in someone telling me why I'm wrong, so I'm OK with leaving it alone. If you are curious about my thoughts on the matter, I guess I'd like to know what you hope to gain.
Yes, I'm interested in what you mean by spirit. My motivation is to try to understand what you think it is and why you think it exists so that I have some understanding of your view - without that it's just a vague concept with a lot of religious baggage.

Use whatever terms you like to distinguish your view. It only means I'll kick the can (i.e. the question) down the road. I'll add that if it's not algorithmic (not quantitative?), I think it is very difficult to say one has a predictive system.
An algorithm is a set of rules or instructions for solving a problem in a finite number of steps. Some functions in the brain could be described as algorithmic (e.g. some sensory processing), but much of it consists of learning networks that could be considered self-programming; the learning process itself might be seen as algorithmic, but it's generic, not specific to any particular problem - the functional capability is emergent from the interaction of these learning systems, and is dynamic and flexible.

Such a system becomes predictive by learning to predict, through trial and error-corrective feedback. Motor functions are a good example - a baby learns to predict the results of muscle activity when trying to walk or reach out for things by using feedback from the senses over repeated attempts.
 
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Resha Caner

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Yes, I'm interested in what you mean by spirit. My motivation is to try to understand what you think it is and why you think it exists so that I have some understanding of your view - without that it's just a vague concept with a lot of religious baggage.

OK. But why do you want to know that? Simple curiosity? Because you want to know why I believe it? Because you want to know if it's possible?

I plan to keep this simple. How far we go will depend largely on how many questions you ask. To begin, let me mention "soul". My usage of soul differs from that of many other Christians. I consider the soul to essentially be equivalent to the concept of "mind", something you're probably more familiar with. As such, I accept the soul as an emergent quality of the material brain - nothing more than that (amazingly complex as it may be).

Next, I'll refer to your example of an infant learning the use of muscles. After that trial and error, the infant learns to trust its muscles. It comes to depend on them for certain things. I think that is very similar to learning to trust in Mom and Dad. Through trial and error the infant comes to trust (or not) Mom and Dad - to expect certain behaviors from them. Yet at the same time, the infant also learns to think of Mom and Dad as "other" - as not part of the infant's person. It learns to trust its ability to identify persons that are not itself.

In believing in spirit, first of all, I'm trusting in those same skills learned as an infant. Yet everyone I've ever spoken with about this soon begins to argue this case is an exception. Hmm. If someone were to argue "Dad" is not a separate person, but part of your mind, how would they go about convincing you of that? Do you think they'd be successful? Probably not, because you don't trust them. Your system has been programmed to trust Dad.

Such a system becomes predictive by learning to predict, through trial and error-corrective feedback. Motor functions are a good example - a baby learns to predict the results of muscle activity when trying to walk or reach out for things by using feedback from the senses over repeated attempts.

Learning to walk doesn't distinguish us from other animals. Do you think our unique consciousness stems from this same trial and error with corrective feedback?
 
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Michael

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FrumiousBandersnatch

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OK. But why do you want to know that? Simple curiosity? Because you want to know why I believe it? Because you want to know if it's possible?
I'm interested in why people believe the things they believe. I think understanding the reasons for people's beliefs and motivations is useful and interesting in itself. The first step is to understand what a particular belief is.

I don't expect to always be able to comprehend people's descriptions and I don't expect people to always be able to articulate their beliefs, but I think it's worth trying.

To begin, let me mention "soul". My usage of soul differs from that of many other Christians. I consider the soul to essentially be equivalent to the concept of "mind", something you're probably more familiar with. As such, I accept the soul as an emergent quality of the material brain - nothing more than that (amazingly complex as it may be).
OK, but why introduce another word for 'mind' - particularly if many other Christians have a different meaning for that word?

Through trial and error the infant comes to trust (or not) Mom and Dad - to expect certain behaviors from them. Yet at the same time, the infant also learns to think of Mom and Dad as "other" - as not part of the infant's person. It learns to trust its ability to identify persons that are not itself.

In believing in spirit, first of all, I'm trusting in those same skills learned as an infant.
You said soul is equivalent to mind, but you haven't said what spirit is - are you saying (very indirectly) that spirit is like a person you somehow identify as 'other'?

Yet everyone I've ever spoken with about this soon begins to argue this case is an exception. Hmm. If someone were to argue "Dad" is not a separate person, but part of your mind, how would they go about convincing you of that? Do you think they'd be successful? Probably not, because you don't trust them. Your system has been programmed to trust Dad.
Are you suggesting that spirit is a person in your mind that you are programmed to trust as really being a separate person? because that sounds like schizophrenia...

It seems like you're tip-toeing around the edges, using vague and ambiguous analogies, so I have to take guesses at your meaning, rather than saying what it is that you believe 'spirit' to be and then answering questions for clarification.

Learning to walk doesn't distinguish us from other animals. Do you think our unique consciousness stems from this same trial and error with corrective feedback?
Probably, but it's a fundamental property of how biological brains work, both consciously and unconsciously; whatever consciousness other animals have will stem from it too.

Our cognitive capabilities are exceptional in a number of ways, just as the shark's olfactory sensitivity or the eyesight of the mantis shrimp is exceptional; but exceptional cognitive capabilities have vastly greater advantageous scope, enabling sophisticated symbolic representation, abstraction, self-modelling, theory of mind, narrative generation, visualisation forwards and backwards in time, and so-on. These work together synergistically, enabling deferred gratification, language, complex culture, technology, etc.

But for all this, we still have the same basic (primitive?) drives and emotions - although we can often sublimate them in relatively harmless activities, or justify them by generating a plausible post-hoc narrative.
 
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Resha Caner

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OK, but why introduce another word for 'mind' …

I think it's incorrect to say I've introduced another word, as if coopting an idea created by others. I tend to adopt the term used by those to whom I'm speaking. I only mentioned it here as a bit of clarification due to the second half of your statement (which follows).

… particularly if many other Christians have a different meaning for that word?

Because I think they're wrong. Hebrew texts use two different words: ruach (spirit) and nephesh (soul). When we move to NT Greek, the word for soul is "psyche", which is often translated as mind. Many dictionaries list soul, mind, and psyche as synonyms. I'm simply agreeing with that.

At the same time, I'm distinguishing myself from Christians who shrug and say soul/spirit is the same thing. I'm further distinguishing myself from Christians who adopt a tripartite philosophy … as if a human mind (soul) could exist without a human body, or a human body exist without a spirit.

It seems like you're tip-toeing around the edges, using vague and ambiguous analogies, so I have to take guesses at your meaning, rather than saying what it is that you believe 'spirit' to be and then answering questions for clarification.

Maybe. More likely it comes from me changing horses midstream. In the past I wanted to explain my views in detail, and I systematically laid them out. My preference was to teach it like a class, starting with fundamental concepts and building up to spirit as the conclusion. An Internet forum, however, isn't the place for that. But it's hard to switch from thinking in those terms to just cutting to the chase.

I'll give it my best shot. First, spirit has 2 meanings. For the first, while all humans are persons, not all persons necessarily have to be human. The whole "Are they out there?" among the group that wants to storm Area 51 is based on that premise. So, spirits are persons who are not necessarily human - not necessarily constituted per the material structures with which we are acquainted.

Second, in a theological sense, "life" has a different meaning than the one adopted by biology. It's not about the capacity to grow, metabolize, respond, adapt, and reproduce. Rather, it's very closely associated with consciousness and being a person. In the second sense, then, humans have spirit as all persons do, and are distinguished by that unique consciousness. In theology, it is claimed the source of all spirits - our life - our special personhood - our unique consciousness, comes from the same source (God) as it does for all persons (all spirits), no matter the form those persons take in order to physically interact.

Probably, but it's a fundamental property of how biological brains work, both consciously and unconsciously; whatever consciousness other animals have will stem from it too.

The "probably" seems the most accurate description of your position. I was thinking there would be more, but maybe listing the actions you associate with consciousness is all you have to offer. That brings me back to my original question. If you can't really describe what consciousness is, might it be because that description is beyond us? Not that we shouldn't keep trying.
 
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Davidz777

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I should have poked around on the web before creating this thread in order to provide better references that go beyond any forum discussion. Amazing what information one can find on the Internet in this era that is absolutely exploding and wikipedia is often the best place to start drilling down through especially since it always has extensive bibliography listings. Thus belatedly:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_binding

The Binding Problem is an interdisciplinary term, named for the difficulty of creating a comprehensive and verifiable model for the unity of consciousness. "Binding" refers to the integration of highly diverse neural information in the forming of one's cohesive experience. The neural binding hypothesis states that neural signals are paired through synchronized oscillations of neuronal activity that combine and recombine to allow for a wide variety of responses to context-dependent stimuli.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness

Consciousness at its simplest refers to “sentience or awareness of internal or external existence”. Despite centuries of analyses, definitions, explanations and debates by philosophers and scientists, consciousness remains puzzling and controversial, being “at once the most familiar and most mysterious aspect of our lives". Perhaps the only widely agreed notion about the topic is the intuition that it exists. Opinions differ about what exactly needs to be studied and explained as consciousness. Sometimes it is synonymous with 'the mind', other times just an aspect of mind. In the past it was one’s “inner life”, the world of introspection, of private thought, imagination and volition.Today, with modern research into the brain it also includes any kind of experience, cognition, feeling or perception. It may be ‘awareness’, or 'awareness of awareness’, or both. Questions include whether consciousness is one kind with different features or whether there are different kinds of consciousness, or whether only humans are conscious or all animals or even the whole universe. The disparate range of research, notions and speculations raises doubts about the sensibility of the questions being asked.

The following short 7:43 minute video shows how leading neuroscientists have embraced consciousness to be beyond just that of humans to other chordate animals and are rapidly replacing older science theories.

 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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I think it's incorrect to say I've introduced another word, as if coopting an idea created by others. I tend to adopt the term used by those to whom I'm speaking. I only mentioned it here as a bit of clarification due to the second half of your statement (which follows).
OK; I just thought it could cause some confusion.

First, spirit has 2 meanings. For the first, while all humans are persons, not all persons necessarily have to be human... So, spirits are persons who are not necessarily human - not necessarily constituted per the material structures with which we are acquainted.
So where are they, where do they come from, what are they constituted of, what sort of persons are they, do they communicate and if so how?

Most of all, how do you know?

Second, in a theological sense, "life" has a different meaning than the one adopted by biology. It's not about the capacity to grow, metabolize, respond, adapt, and reproduce. Rather, it's very closely associated with consciousness and being a person. In the second sense, then, humans have spirit as all persons do, and are distinguished by that unique consciousness. In theology, it is claimed the source of all spirits - our life - our special personhood - our unique consciousness, comes from the same source (God) as it does for all persons (all spirits), no matter the form those persons take in order to physically interact.
So, in this sense, spirit is being a conscious person?

The "probably" seems the most accurate description of your position.
I thought so.

I was thinking there would be more, but maybe listing the actions you associate with consciousness is all you have to offer.
You asked if, "our unique consciousness stems from this same trial and error with corrective feedback". I think it probably does, as this is how the brain learns, and our unique consciousness is a product the unique genetics that provide a template for our brain development and the unique life experiences that influence our developing brains. The same will likely apply to the development of any brain with a similar architecture, e.g. mammals.

What more were you after?

That brings me back to my original question. If you can't really describe what consciousness is, might it be because that description is beyond us?
I don't recall you asking whether I could could describe consciousness, but I've already mentioned what I think is the essence of consciousness, and that is subjective or phenomenal experience, i.e. that the there is 'something it is like' to be a particular entity.

I don't think a description is beyond us, I think the problem is that the meaning of the word is not particularly well-defined; people use it in a variety of subtly different ways. When people are specific about precisely what they mean by it in some context, they have given a description of it in that context.

As for the 'hard problem' of consciousness, i.e. how or why the activity of the brain gives rise to subjective experience, I suspect that we will eventually get a full objective description of the kind of brain activity that results in subjective experience, but the fundamental dichotomy between the phenomenal (subjective) and discursive (objective) descriptions will obviously remain.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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The following short 7:43 minute video shows how leading neuroscientists have embraced consciousness to be beyond just that of humans to other chordate animals and are rapidly replacing older science theories.

Not just chordates, octopus (a mollusc) too.
 
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Resha Caner

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So, in this sense, spirit is being a conscious person?

Yes, but while humans have a spirit, I was trying to highlight a typical use where spirit indicates persons who are not human … and further that I'm not simply indicating how some think their cat is a person. I'm not trying to deny that the word is typically used in a religious context.

So where are they, where do they come from, what are they constituted of, what sort of persons are they, do they communicate and if so how?

What I said above is important to answering this question. As humans we have, for the most part, accepted as a moral law that we don't experiment on conscious persons without their consent. I am not aware of a spirit that has consented to such a thing, therefore I don't know the answers to your questions about what they are made of. I've speculated from time to time, but I don't know. And, given the religious context, it's largely unimportant with regard to interacting with them.

As to how they communicate, in the normal way. You perceive them with your senses.

Most of all, how do you know?

In an earlier post I started to explain why I'm convinced (which would be a better phrasing than saying I know, which brings along a lot of philosophical baggage about epistemology). However, I also tried to explain my tentativeness due to prior experiences. Again, asking such things of a human subject is different than studying rocks. You're not going to frighten, anger, offend, frustrate, bore rocks. It requires a certain tact. In those prior experiences I've been told I must have had hallucinations, etc. In your case, the word schizophrenia popped out. It may have been a simple misunderstanding of what I was saying with no negative intent, but the result is the result nonetheless. I've no interest in answering you further on that point.

My lack of interest is twofold. First, I consider it laughable silliness the number of times people with no professional training as a counselor hand out diagnoses after one post in an Internet forum - and I don't just mean the ones directed at me. It happens all the time to all kinds of people.

Second, there is a fascinating TED talk by a journalist who interviewed a man who had been in a psychiatric hospital for decades after being found not guilty of a crime for reasons of insanity. The man admitted he had faked his symptoms to avoid jail, but now couldn't get out of the hospital. The doctors, despite being aware of his admission, continued to maintain he actually did have a mental illness. Due to the amount of time the inmate had spent trying to get out, he had become an amateur expert of sorts in psychiatry. He handed the journalist a thick book listing mental illnesses. He explained why he couldn't get out. In his opinion, every person on the planet could be diagnosed with at least one of the illnesses in that book. So, technically, the doctors were right. According to the book he was mentally ill. But so was everyone else, including the doctors who were diagnosing him. Once you are labeled as mentally ill, the patient explained, you never, ever lose that label because the doctor can always find a reason to label you mentally ill. The point was that psychiatry has reached a place where there is no such thing as "normal" or "healthy". Rather, it's only a matter of whether your illness has been stamped with an official seal. If that's truly the case, it's ridiculous.

I don't recall you asking whether I could could describe consciousness, but I've already mentioned what I think is the essence of consciousness, and that is subjective or phenomenal experience, i.e. that the there is 'something it is like' to be a particular entity.

OK. I'm not sure I actually understand what you're saying. Your description seems just as vague and lacking in context as the others you mention, but … OK. You seem to think you're saying something.

As for the 'hard problem' of consciousness, i.e. how or why the activity of the brain gives rise to subjective experience, I suspect that we will eventually get a full objective description of the kind of brain activity that results in subjective experience, but the fundamental dichotomy between the phenomenal (subjective) and discursive (objective) descriptions will obviously remain.

… What more were you after?

You've more or less answered my question. You don't think the description is beyond us and you think science will get there one day. OK. Whether science will get there seems like faith rather than something grounded in any real demonstration of science to approach the issue of consciousness, but … OK.

And your statement seems contradictory to me. You're saying science will never address the subjective aspects of consciousness, but it will eventually address the objective. Umm. But if the definition of consciousness is given in terms of the subjective, and science won't address that, what exactly is science going to discover about consciousness?
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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...I don't know the answers to your questions about what they are made of. ... given the religious context, it's largely unimportant with regard to interacting with them.

As to how they communicate, in the normal way. You perceive them with your senses.
If you can perceive them with your senses (see hear, touch, etc), that would suggest that they're material entities that are physically effectual, made of matter (protons, neutrons, & electrons) like the rest of us, otherwise there would be an interaction problem.

Alternatively, if they were manifested entirely in the mind, their communication would not be normal unless you consider communication with entities in your head that no-one else can see or hear normal.

Again, I'm guessing, based on fragmentary and ambiguous information...

In those prior experiences I've been told I must have had hallucinations, etc. In your case, the word schizophrenia popped out. It may have been a simple misunderstanding of what I was saying with no negative intent, but the result is the result nonetheless. I've no interest in answering you further on that point.
OK. I mentioned schizophrenia because one of its many symptoms is hearing voices with distinct personalities; many healthy people hear voices too (it's surprisingly common), and I was hoping to prompt you to be more specific. If a particular encounter with such an entity is perceptible only to you, that might fit the definition of a hallucination ("a perception in the absence of external stimulus that has qualities of real perception; vivid, substantial, and perceived to be located in external objective space"), but it's rare for them to be multisensory. Hallucinations are also surprisingly common.

My lack of interest is twofold. First, I consider it laughable silliness the number of times people with no professional training as a counselor hand out diagnoses after one post in an Internet forum - and I don't just mean the ones directed at me. It happens all the time to all kinds of people.
I'm not interested in making a diagnosis of anything, I want to know what your experience of this phenomenon is like - what do they look like? what do they say? do they answer questions? etc.

Second, there is a fascinating TED talk by a journalist who interviewed a man who had been in a psychiatric hospital for decades after being found not guilty of a crime for reasons of insanity. The man admitted he had faked his symptoms to avoid jail, but now couldn't get out of the hospital. The doctors, despite being aware of his admission, continued to maintain he actually did have a mental illness. Due to the amount of time the inmate had spent trying to get out, he had become an amateur expert of sorts in psychiatry. He handed the journalist a thick book listing mental illnesses. He explained why he couldn't get out. In his opinion, every person on the planet could be diagnosed with at least one of the illnesses in that book. So, technically, the doctors were right. According to the book he was mentally ill. But so was everyone else, including the doctors who were diagnosing him. Once you are labeled as mentally ill, the patient explained, you never, ever lose that label because the doctor can always find a reason to label you mentally ill. The point was that psychiatry has reached a place where there is no such thing as "normal" or "healthy". Rather, it's only a matter of whether your illness has been stamped with an official seal. If that's truly the case, it's ridiculous.
There's some truth in that. I've heard of two experiments where volunteers faked symptoms to gain admission to psychiatric hospitals, and after a set period they stopped faking and tried to gain release. In the first experiment, their efforts were taken to be further evidence of their 'illness', and experimenters had to intervene to ensure their release.

In the second experiment, the institution was informed in advance and agreed to the trial, confident they'd spot the fakers; but the same thing happened - the fakers had to be rescued. It's a telling example of the power of expectation (confirmation) bias even in supposed experts, and the difficulties of psychiatric assessment.

OK. I'm not sure I actually understand what you're saying. Your description seems just as vague and lacking in context as the others you mention, but … OK. You seem to think you're saying something.
It's a commonly accepted description in the philosophy of consciousness of what the core concept of consciousness entails, i.e. subjective, phenomenal experience; that there is 'something it is like' to be that thing. If something is not conscious, it has no subjective phenomenal experience; for example, there is not something it is like to be a rock or a cheese sandwich, but there is something it is like to be a bat.

You don't think the description is beyond us and you think science will get there one day. OK. Whether science will get there seems like faith rather than something grounded in any real demonstration of science to approach the issue of consciousness, but … OK.
I'm extrapolating from the considerable progress made to date investigating various aspects of consciousness such as sense of self, location, orientation, physical extent & bounds, ownership, agency, memory, recall, and so-on. We've discovered a lot about how these aspects interact and how they can be modified and distorted to produce unusual states of consciousness.


And your statement seems contradictory to me. You're saying science will never address the subjective aspects of consciousness, but it will eventually address the objective. Umm. But if the definition of consciousness is given in terms of the subjective, and science won't address that, what exactly is science going to discover about consciousness?
It's just the way things are. Science is a means of acquiring objective descriptions and explanations of the world. Conscious experience is subjective, individual, solitary, and inaccessible to others. It is only communicable via metaphor and simile, an appeal to shared objective events in the hope that another's subjective experience of those events is similar; i.e. via translation to an objective description then via another individual's unique interpretation of how they would experience that objective description.

We also know that different people's subjective experiences of events are not necessarily similar, e.g. colour-blindness. It's not even clear that the concept of comparing subjective experience is meaningful, i.e. what does it mean to say my subjective experience of red is the same as, or similar to, yours, beyond that we both have the same objective responses to the same objective encounters with red?

Consequently, science can only deal with the objective aspects of consciousness - the physical correlates of consciousness and the reported (objective) descriptions of someone's subjective experience. So it seems to me that we could, potentially, reach the point of having a detailed functional description of all the observable and reportable correlates of consciousness, to the extent that we could predict the reported experience of a subject of any particular activity in their brain, and explain why that activity produced that reported experience and not a different one, yet we would still not know, and could not know in principle, what it was like for that subject to have those experiences.​
 
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Resha Caner

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Consequently, science can only deal with the objective aspects of consciousness - the physical correlates of consciousness and the reported (objective) descriptions of someone's subjective experience. So it seems to me that we could, potentially, reach the point of having a detailed functional description of all the observable and reportable correlates of consciousness, to the extent that we could predict the reported experience of a subject of any particular activity in their brain, and explain why that activity produced that reported experience and not a different one, yet we would still not know, and could not know in principle, what it was like for that subject to have those experiences.

Would you expect these physical correlates and/or the objective description of them to be quantitative?
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Would you expect these physical correlates and/or the objective description of them to be quantitative?
I don't see why not, in as much as we should be able to quantify what kinds and levels of activity in specific parts of brain will give rise to specific reports of conscious experience, and to what degree the activity in any one part contributes to such reported experiences and, more importantly, why (how).

So, for example, we may be able to say that a specific neural 'module' (or interaction of modules) is concerned with the sense of identity and that stimulating it or inhibiting it to varying degrees will have a corresponding effect on the subject's reported sense of identity.

We already know that someone's sense of identity can be modified by certain psychoactive substances, so I'm suggesting we may be able to quantify such influences, describe their specificity, and even explain their effects at the level of information processing, much in the way we've learned how specific groups of neurons in rat's brains store and encode navigation information as they move around their environment.
 
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Resha Caner

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I don't see why not, in as much as we should be able to quantify what kinds and levels of activity in specific parts of brain will give rise to specific reports of conscious experience, and to what degree the activity in any one part contributes to such reported experiences and, more importantly, why (how).

Therefore, it would be a mathematical description … axiomatic.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Therefore, it would be a mathematical description … axiomatic.
Mathematics would be part of the description. In principle, you can describe any physical system in terms of mathematics; in practice, we tend to only attempt mathematical descriptions of salient features.

Yes, mathematics is axiomatic - it's a formal system, it has rules. So what?
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Nothing really. It's just that I had asked about Godel earlier, so I think we've come full circle.
The relevance of the Godelian problem here is to do with how the system functions, not how it is described.

Also, I probably said that I don't think the brain functions as a formal axiomatic or algorithmic system at the level of mental activity (thinking).
 
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Resha Caner

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The relevance of the Godelian problem here is to do with how the system functions, not how it is described.

If you choose to study consciousness using mathematics, it's relevant. How it actually functions is irrelevant if you can't describe it. You would be speculating about what you don't know.

As far as I'm concerned, that's true of all science. I've never considered science a description of reality, but rather a model of reality. But not all share my instrumentalist perspective.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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If you choose to study consciousness using mathematics, it's relevant. How it actually functions is irrelevant if you can't describe it. You would be speculating about what you don't know.
The use of mathematics is only part of the study and description. You asked if the description would be quantifiable and I think aspects of it probably will be. Informed speculation about what you don't know is part of science. You make hypotheses and test them.
 
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jayem

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I don't see why not, in as much as we should be able to quantify what kinds and levels of activity in specific parts of brain will give rise to specific reports of conscious experience, and to what degree the activity in any one part contributes to such reported experiences and, more importantly, why (how).

So, for example, we may be able to say that a specific neural 'module' (or interaction of modules) is concerned with the sense of identity and that stimulating it or inhibiting it to varying degrees will have a corresponding effect on the subject's reported sense of identity.

We already know that someone's sense of identity can be modified by certain psychoactive substances, so I'm suggesting we may be able to quantify such influences, describe their specificity, and even explain their effects at the level of information processing, much in the way we've learned how specific groups of neurons in rat's brains store and encode navigation information as they move around their environment.

Agree. I haven’t read all of the lengthy posts in this thread. But I can’t imagine how consciousness can exist without a functioning brain. Here’s a simplistic line of reasoning: Not to get too personal, but I have a history of colon polyps (all benign, fortunately.) I get a screening colonoscopy about every 3 years. Just before the procedure, the anesthetist give me a slug of propofol in my IV. Within seconds, I’m out like a light. I’m in a state of total and utter oblivion, with no awareness of anything until I wake up in the recovery area. Propofol blocks the inactivation of gamma-aminobutyric acid. GABA is the brain’s main inhibitory neurotransmitter, present in those regions known to mediate consciousness, i.e., the reticular activating system. So when the mechanism that inhibits GABA is itself inhibited, which is what propofol does, neuronal transmission shuts down. Resulting in unconsciousness. Thus, as I see it, if consciousness can exist independently of brain activity, why does anesthesia work? Why don’t I have some awareness of what’s going on during my procedure? Does this make sense?
 
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