Speeding his coming?

[Simon Peter]

Hello

Then I have heard that view before. Its seems very encouraging, but never happens. Usually when I'm given it I ask about this scripture:

Matthew 7:13-14 NIV
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it"

There isnt an answer.

Hi Lismore,

I'm sure they explain it away somehow. Perhaps, they say it was only meant for the 1st Century...

One thing I didn't mention, that may interest you, is that dominionists ALWAYS believe in 'replacement theology'.

 

[Tamara224]

I think the greatest revival will be after the Lord Jesus comes back.

Agreed!


I also think that there will be a big revival during the Tribulation itself. I believe that the Tribulation has a two-fold purpose: 1) judgment on the nations for treatment of Israel/Jews over the last 2000+ years and 2) to shake people off their prideful foundations and get them to turn to Christ (nothing brings people to the end of themselves and to a place where they are willing to submit to God faster than disaster).

people who are two heavenly minded they are no earthly good.

Ugh, I hate that phrase. It sounds nice but it's not Biblical at all. Jesus told us to be heavenly minded. And do we want to be of "earthly good" or do we want to be of good for the Kingdom of Heaven?

God speed the day. At the moment the Kingdom has no king, so 'Come Lord Jesus and take your throne!'.

Amen! Come Lord Jesus!

 

[Markus6]

Markus, You've been watching the BBC far too much
Stop watching that propaganda and get yourself some deprogramming

I live in the US. I think I've just been reading too much

Throughout scripture the Jews are 'treated differently'. Does this upset your notions of fairness, socialism and political correctness?

No, because I see it in context. God treated the Jews specially because he used them to bring about his plan to save the whole world, regardless of race and unite us all as ONE body.

It's not merely about real-estate. The territory is an issue however. The violence WILL continue until:

1. Israel is completely destroyed by the muslims, and their supporters.
2. The Lord returns to defend Israel, and puts and end to the violence.

Guess which one the bible says will happen?

So should we try to bring peace?

Markus, Are you a pacifist? Do you think God is a pacifist? Read your bible again.

I try to live peacably, as far as possible, with all men. I have read the bible. The Jews were hoping for a warrior king and were surprised when their Messiah's idea of victory was to lay down his life on the cross. Dispensationalist now hope for a warrior king but scripture says Jesus will return with a sword coming out of his mouth. What do you think that means?

I agree that it causes Christians to 'long for Christ's return'. Which is what we are told to do, several times in the New testament. I don't agree with the rest.

That escapist attitude, whilst not universal among dispensationalist, is certainly a fact. Check out the RaptureReady website and discussion board for plenty of proof. We're not just to long for his return but work to prepare for it as well.

I haven't read the books or seen the movie, and don't intend to. Christian money making rubbish IMHO.

Yes, but they've been hugely influential in spreading dispensationalism. The author and many who read them struggle to separate fact from fiction.

How is it unhealthy and inaccurate? It is not a mere literal interpretation, but uses context and genre. It's the most logical and consistant way to interpret scripture, the same way that NT writers interpreted OT scripture and prophecy.

peace,
Simon

Consistent is definitely the pertinent word here. Dispensationalism is an attempt to translate scripture into one unified literal timeline. However, it is consistency at the cost of reading scripture for what it says. For example it inserts a 2000 year (and counting) gap between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel with no justification from the text; it takes the second coming of Christ, splits it into the 2nd and 3rd comings and inserts a 7 year gap with no justification from the text and it ignores Ephesians 2: 11-22, Romans 2: 17-29 and Romans 11: 17-21 which state there is only one body of Christ, one chosen people.

 

[Markus6]

Ugh, I hate that phrase. It sounds nice but it's not Biblical at all. Jesus told us to be heavenly minded. And do we want to be of "earthly good" or do we want to be of good for the Kingdom of Heaven?

He told us to be heavenly minded and earthly good by giving us so many instruction of how to live and advance his Kingdom on the earth. If someone is, in there head, already living in heaven and ignoring their existence on earth they are no good.

 

[Tamara224]

He told us to be heavenly minded and earthly good by giving us so many instruction of how to live and advance his Kingdom on the earth. If someone is, in there head, already living in heaven and ignoring their existence on earth they are no good.

Maybe. But honestly, I think that phrase is often used by people who are just trying to justify not doing anything for the Kingdom and instead living worldly lives.

At least, that's where I most often hear it. I'm not saying that's your reason for using it.

I really don't think it's possible to have your mind truly set on heavenly things and be no earthly good. Because heavenly things = Godly things and Godly things = the most good there is.

 

[Markus6]

Maybe. But honestly, I think that phrase is often used by people who are just trying to justify not doing anything for the Kingdom and instead living worldly lives.

At least, that's where I most often hear it. I'm not saying that's your reason for using it.

I really don't think it's possible to have your mind truly set on heavenly things and be no earthly good. Because heavenly things = Godly things and Godly things = the most good there is.

Yeah, I think I'm using it slightly differently from how it's normally used. I agree that to be properly heavenly minded is good, if we work on earth to store up our treasures in heaven. The problem is misconceptions about heaven (and earth) that lead to escapism.

 

[Simon Peter]

I also think that there will be a big revival during the Tribulation itself. I believe that the Tribulation has a two-fold purpose: 1) judgment on the nations for treatment of Israel/Jews over the last 2000+ years and 2) to shake people off their prideful foundations and get them to turn to Christ (nothing brings people to the end of themselves and to a place where they are willing to submit to God faster than disaster).

Yes!

This is the true 'latter rain' spoken of in Joel, a prophecy to and about Israel in the last days.





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[Faulty]

The Bible cleary states that God will deal differently with the Jews than he will with anyone else during the Tribulation.

Jeremiah 46:28
"Do not fear, O Jacob my servant, for I am with you," declares the LORD. "Though I completely destroy all the nations among which I scatter you, I will not completely destroy you. I will discipline you but only with justice; I will not let you go entirely unpunished.""

This is consistent with Daniel's 70 weeks, one of which remains unfulfilled. The first 69 weeks deal exclusively with God's plans for Israel, and so will the last week. We didn't create the gap between the two, scripture did. Daniel 9:26 states at the end of the 69th week the Messiah is executed, or "cut off" and "will have nothing".

The gap is evident because He was indeed cut off without fulfilling verse 24, "Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy"

We obviously haven't seen the most holy annointed, or the completion of all prophecy, that means its still to come. The 69th week ended almost 2,000 years ago, but the 70th week hasn't yet come to pass. Like the gap or don't like the gap, its still there.

 

[Faulty]

God will again deal with Israel once the number of the Church is complete.

Romans 11:24-26
"After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree! I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob."

Jeremiah 46 describes this process occuring during the "Time of Jacob's Trouble", what we call the Tribulation. There are also a number on indicators that the believers in the tribulation are not part of the Church body, but that's the topic of another post.

So the Church is defined by a number. You want to speed up the rapture, then work to increase that number.

 

[Simon Peter]

I live in the US. I think I've just been reading too much

Hi Markus,

I also currently live in the US. Unfortunately, we can’t even escape the BBC (Bolshevik Broadcasting Company ) here!

No, because I see it in context. God treated the Jews specially because he used them to bring about his plan to save the whole world, regardless of race and unite us all as ONE body.

True, we are all CURRENTLY united as one body, both Jew and Gentile.
In the OT a Gentile could be grafted into Israel, and find salvation. Currently, a Jew has to be grafted into the church.

The 70th week of Daniel will be similar to the OT, where Gentiles will again find salvation through Israel, but with faith in Christ rather than the sacrificial system.

So should we try to bring peace?

Yes, we should work towards peace, but not at the expense of doing what’s right, and be willing to fight.

Chamberlain worked towards peace with Hitler. If he had taken a strong stance from the beginning, instead of his appeasement strategy, WWII and the millions of dead, may have been avoided.

Anyway, again the scripture tells us that there is one who will offer and bring peace: the anti-christ.

I try to live peacably, as far as possible, with all men. I have read the bible. The Jews were hoping for a warrior king and were surprised when their Messiah's idea of victory was to lay down his life on the cross. Dispensationalist now hope for a warrior king but scripture says Jesus will return with a sword coming out of his mouth. What do you think that means?

The Jews were expecting a ‘warrior king’ because of the OT prophecies regarding this type of messiah (which weren’t fulfilled 2000 years ago btw). In fact many 1st Cent Jewish scholars believed there would be two messiahs, because they couldn’t reconcile the ‘warrior’ and the pacifist.

The sword is likely His spoken word.

Consistent is definitely the pertinent word here. Dispensationalism is an attempt to translate scripture into one unified literal timeline. However, it is consistency at the cost of reading scripture for what it says. For example it inserts a 2000 year (and counting) gap between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel with no justification from the text; it takes the second coming of Christ, splits it into the 2nd and 3rd comings and inserts a 7 year gap with no justification from the text and it ignores Ephesians 2: 11-22, Romans 2: 17-29 and Romans 11: 17-21 which state there is only one body of Christ, one chosen people.

Some say 2000 years for the church era, and use scripture to justify. I don’t feel nailed down to any exact number of church years. I’ve read some good explanations with timelines.

Don’t forget that the bible (especially the OT) uses ‘timelines’ and exact periods itself, so don’t be too quick to write them off.

As for what you call the 2nd and 3rd coming. It may help to recall Noah. Saved from the destruction of the ungodly, lifted up above the earth, and kept there for an exact period of time, then brought back down to a cleansed world, to repopulate it. Dispensationalism is not without biblical precedent.

One body of Christ, one chosen people! We already know that this is not as simple as you’ve stated it. The scriptures you reference talk of more than one people of God. See my answer above about Jew and Gentile.

God Bless you Markus,
Simon



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[nephilimiyr]

Agreed!


I also think that there will be a big revival during the Tribulation itself. I believe that the Tribulation has a two-fold purpose: 1) judgment on the nations for treatment of Israel/Jews over the last 2000+ years and 2) to shake people off their prideful foundations and get them to turn to Christ (nothing brings people to the end of themselves and to a place where they are willing to submit to God faster than disaster).

This is something that I have been wondering about, because I simply have no idea. Of late, I have been sorta leaning towards a pre-trib rapture. The one question I have about this is about the reasoning behind Jesus comeing to take the Church just before the rapture, but yet there still being people saved afterwards. For some reason I just get so confused over this and usually just give up trying to understand. However, I liked the way you put it here Tamara.

 

[lismore]

It's not that you are going to FORCE God to speed it up. That's ridiculous.

Interestingly enough though:

37"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.' {Matthew 23}.

When Jerusalem says 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord', The Lord will come.

 

[lismore]

This is something that I have been wondering about, because I simply have no idea. Of late, I have been sorta leaning towards a pre-trib rapture. The one question I have about this is about the reasoning behind Jesus comeing to take the Church just before the rapture, but yet there still being people saved afterwards. For some reason I just get so confused over this and usually just give up trying to understand. However, I liked the way you put it here Tamara.

Hello There

During the Tribulation the two witnesses will be there preaching:

Revelation 11:3 NIV
And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth."

Look at this:

5If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.
A lot of people are going to be saved by their preaching. They spew fire on their enemies. Elijah shuts the sky and stops the rain for 1,260 days. Moses strikes the earth with the plagues of Egypt again. Wow!

 

[lismore]

Hi Lismore,

I'm sure they explain it away somehow. Perhaps, they say it was only meant for the 1st Century...

One thing I didn't mention, that may interest you, is that dominionists ALWAYS believe in 'replacement theology'.

Ha! That certainly does interest me Simon!!!

Would dominionist theology be somehow similar to some branches of WOF then? Also as far as I know New Frontiers Churches are dominionist!

 

[Markus6]

Ha! That certainly does interest me Simon!!!

Would dominionist theology be somehow similar to some branches of WOF then? As far as I know New Frontiers Churches are dominionist!

From watching TBN I think it's fair to say WOF are dispensationalist. Are you trying to blame replacement theology for every problem in the church at the moment lismore?

 

[lismore]

Are you trying to blame replacement theology for every problem in the church at the moment lismore?

Lets look at it this way:

Psalm 72:18 NIV
Praise be to the LORD God, the God of Israel, who alone does marvelous deeds.

The God of Israel alone does marvelous deeds. If you want marvelous deeds in the church replacement theology has got to go back to the bin.

 

[Simon Peter]

Ha! That certainly does interest me Simon!!!

Would dominionist theology be somehow similar to some branches of WOF then? Also as far as I know New Frontiers Churches are dominionist!

No, you can't consistently tie the two (WoF and Dom) together. I don't know about NF.

However, 'latter rain' theology sprang from the US Pentecostal church in the mid 20th cent, just as WoF also came from the US Pentecostal church mid 20th cent. Dominionism is largely rooted in 'latter rain' beliefs.

Dominionist beliefs and goals lean towards a positive and optimistic outlook. Those who see a more troubled future are branded pessimists by the dominionists. Remind you of anyone?

This makes dominionism more attractive to ‘Word of Faith’ believers, whose modern view of God often fails to see His judgment, wrath and condemnation, preferring to only see his more positive attributes. Therefore, WoF believers are more likely to embrace dominionism.

That said, there are plenty of WoF who are not dominionist, and dominionists who are not WoF.
But if things continue as they've been going, we will see a huge growth in dominionism, especially among WoF. If you believe in conspiracy theories, it seems like someone was behind this confluence.


.

 

[He put me back together]

There are two Jerusalems in Messianic Scripture, and especially in Revelation. Here is one:

And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Here is the other:

And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Which city does Yahweh defend, and which was prophecied by Messiah himself to be utterly destroyed?

 

[Markus6]

Lets look at it this way:

Psalm 72:18 NIV
Praise be to the LORD God, the God of Israel, who alone does marvelous deeds.

The God of Israel alone does marvelous deeds. If you want marvelous deeds in the church replacement theology has got to go back to the bin.

Are you saying God is incapable of doing marvellous deeds through believers who hold replacement theology?

 

[lismore]

..Judgement begins in the House of the Lord.......

Judgement yes, but not wrath! The tribulation is the wrath of God poured out on the world, Christians have not been appointed to suffer wrath.

God Bless You
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=BH63AGBbf8A