Speaking in Tounges

[Abiel]

But a tongue from God simply isn't gibberish. They are languages, past. present, future.

 

[Iosias]

But a tongue from God simply isn't gibberish. They are languages, past. present, future.

Herein lies your problem...Acts 2 clearly establishes tongues as real earthly languages! That is why fake tongues were described by Paul as unknown i.e. gibberish!!

 

[Abiel]

Herein lies your problem...Acts 2 clearly establishes tongues as real earthly languages! That is why fake tongues were described by Paul as unknown i.e. gibberish!!

So how do you know they are not real languages?

 

[alaskamolly]

AV,



1 Corinthians clearly shows that a gift of "unknown" tongues (ie, a language that Paul's "MIND" did not understand, but that his spirit did) was something Paul prayed in himself, and encouraged in others.




1 Cor. 14:7-12 show that the particular tongues in question are most certainly those of the 'unknown language' sort.


1 Cor 14:14, 15 shows Paul demonstrating the importance of BOTH known and unknown tongues...



1 Cor. 14:18, 19--Paul speaks in tongues (unknown) more than they all do, and thanks God for it, but demonstrates that for the building up of the Body of Christ, understandable teaching needs to be placed on a higher level.


1 Cor. 14:12 shows his reason for this instruction--when the church gathers together, she needs to be built UP in a corporate sense--so gifts that are more designed for the whole (such as prophecy) are encouraged, whereas gifts that are designed for individual use (unknown tongues w/out interpretation) are asked to be restricted to individual settings.




1 Cor. 14:39,40--The Body of Christ is told that when it gathers, to ENCOURAGE prophetic gifts, to NOT forbid unknown tongues but to let them have an interpretation if they are to be used in a group setting, so as to continue with the spirit of edification--private use of unknown tongues is different, and no interpretation is necessary.







I think this is sufficient Scripture to warrent the topic of tongues to be up for debate, if not up for acceptance!




Again (for the third time--*grin*), where exactly does the Bible SPECIFICALLY say that tongues are not for today?


Because the Scriptures DO specifically say that tongues are to be encouraged, desired, something to thank God for, and are useful to the Believer. Now, where does God specifially retract this?



Many Blessings,
Molly

 

[tesnusxenos]

this is an important verse here:
1 Corinthians 14

28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.

This shows that sometimes niether the speaker or anyone else (except God) knows what is being said but still it is correct and right that the unknown language comes out of the persons mouth (as long as they do not disturb the congregation).

 

[tesnusxenos]

I said I was done with this forum but the Lord woke me in the night and put this on my heart:
1 Corinthians 13 8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.(KJV)
1 Corinthians 13 8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.(NIV)

These are the main verses that are used to prove the toungues have ceased. When perfection comes toungues will be stilled and prophesy will be cease and knowledge will pass away. But has perfection come? Some say that Jesus is perfection. But I think the Lord is waiting for the time when He renews all creation and it is perfect again.
Our we in the last days yet? A debateable point but few will debate on the side that the last days are past. Yet in the last days prophesy is going to happen as shown in the following verses (used in both the new and the old testament):

Acts 2

17" 'In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy. (NIV)
Acts 2
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
(KJV)

If prophesy is going to happen in the last days then perfection has not yet been attained,for when perfection comes it will cease. So it follows that toungues have not been stilled yet because that also happens when perfection is atained.

 

[Iosias]

So how do you know they are not real languages?

The gift of tongues is a real earthly language as defined by Acts 2 and 1 Corinthians. To say that they are not is unBiblical!

 

[Iosias]

AV,
1 Corinthians clearly shows that a gift of "unknown" tongues (ie, a language that Paul's "MIND" did not understand, but that his spirit did) was something Paul prayed in himself, and encouraged in others.

This is incorrect and I would advise you to read John MacArthur's commentary upon 1 Corinthians which tears this interpreteation to shreds. I have posted the relevant part of the commentary somewhere on this forum in one of the debates...I will try to find it.

Again (for the third time--*grin*), where exactly does the Bible SPECIFICALLY say that tongues are not for today?

But likewise I could ask you where it explicitly says that they are for today...answer: it does not i.e. you read scripture and make an assumption that it is! My argument is simple and Biblical...http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/tongues/tongues7.htm and http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/tongues/tongues9.htm

 

[Iosias]

I said I was done with this forum but the Lord woke me in the night and put this on my heart:
1 Corinthians 13 8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.(KJV)

These are the main verses that are used to prove the toungues have ceased. When perfection comes toungues will be stilled and prophesy will be cease and knowledge will pass away. But has perfection come? Some say that Jesus is perfection. But I think the Lord is waiting for the time when He renews all creation and it is perfect again.

If prophesy is going to happen in the last days then perfection has not yet been attained,for when perfection comes it will cease. So it follows that toungues have not been stilled yet because that also happens when perfection is atained.

You really have not studies the text have you? Lets have it again:
1 Corinthians 8-10 "Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."

A careful study of the Greek shows that the similar word is used for "they shall fail" and "it shall vanish away" which translated means they will be stopped and we know that it is the arival of the perfect that stops them! However a totally different meaning is attacjed to the Greek "they shall cease" which when translated means they will stop themselves i.e. nothing stops them other than themselves which is cooberated by the highlighed part i.e. verse 9. For we know in part (i.e. knowledge) and we prophesy in part (i.e. prophesies) but no mention of tongues...and then in verse 10 that which is done in part (knowledge and prophesy) will cease when the perfect comes...but we can see that the perfect does not stop tongues...why? Simple...they have ceased prior to the comming of the perfect!!

 

[alaskamolly]

Well...

I prefer a more literal, simpler interpretation...meaning, exactly what it says!

There is nothing (nothing!) in this text
that "PROVES" tongues are already passed away.

Your viewpoint causes you to assume
(and yes, the word "assume" is correct)
that tongues have passed.

However, nothing in that text
(or any other passage)
states that this is so.

All we know from this text is that
when the Perfect comes,
tongues will cease.


We already know that the "Perfect" in this verse
cannot be referring to the Bible,
so we must consider that it is talking
about the return of Christ and the end of the world. ???
That would be the best guess, since we KNOW
that HE is Perfection Himself.

Since we know that event is yet to come,
we have no basis upon which to say
that tongues have presently ceased...

Except the basis of opinion.

So I think it would be far more accurate for you
to say that it is your opinion tongues have ceased.
Scripture does not produce a "black-and-white"
conclusive argument for your opinion, so I think
it would be safer for you to speak from the standpoint of opinion,
versus claiming your views are supported by hard facts.




Personally, I find mostly the frantic arguments against tongues
stem from one core belief: Fear.

Tongues are weird...they are supernatural, obviously so...
and they are initially kind of frightening to the natural man...
At least, this was a large part of the case in my situation...


I had plenty of Scriptural arguments...just like you do...
But when I tried to fight my own arguments,
as any good scholar ought to do (to make sure they can stand the test),
the arguments failed every time.

I found that I could prove tongues with a hard and fast case,
but could not solidly prove against tongues...

This led me to one conclusion alone...
That I'd better check my heart
and make sure I was not closing myself off (and teaching against)
to something God HAD INDEED designed for His people!!!



The rest...is history.




Blessings,
Molly

 

[Iosias]

Well...

I prefer a more literal, simpler interpretation...meaning, exactly what it says! There is nothing (nothing!) in this text that "PROVES" tongues are already passed away. Your viewpoint causes you to assume (and yes, the word "assume" is correct) that tongues have passed.

However, nothing in that text (or any other passage) states that this is so. All we know from this text is that when the Perfect comes, tongues will cease.

We already know that the "Perfect" in this verse cannot be referring to the Bible, so we must consider that it is talking about the return of Christ and the end of the world. ??? That would be the best guess, since we KNOW that HE is Perfection Himself.

Since we know that event is yet to come, we have no basis upon which to say that tongues have presently ceased...

So I think it would be far more accurate for you to say that it is your opinion tongues have ceased. Scripture does not produce a "black-and-white" conclusive argument for your opinion, so I think it would be safer for you to speak from the standpoint of opinion,versus claiming your views are supported by hard facts.

Firstly I wanted to shew you that the coming of the "perfect" is not that which will cause tongues to cease. This is shewn to be the case when you read the text in English and when you read it in Greek. Therefore for a discussion on tongues we need not concern ourselves with what the perfect is. Simply because tongues will have ceased before it comes. Secondly, it is true that this passage does not prove that tongues has ceased but what it does shew is that they will cease and that they will cease prior to the coming of the perfect. So once we acknowledge this we can start the discussion on a solid foundation.

The Bible points solely to one purpose of tongues and that is to be a sign. John MacArthur, in his commentary upon 1 Corinthians, distinguishes 3 sign purposes of tongues: (1) a sign of cursing, (2) a sign of blessing, and (3) a sign of authority. Now at Pentecost the purpose of gifts was to shew Israel that they were being set aside and were going to be judged which occured in AD70 therefore the purpose of cursing has ceased. Tongues were a sign of blessing because with Israel being set aside the door was being opened to the gentiles and so with the sign of blessing done the blessing purpose has ceased. And “Tongues were a part of the miraculous era of Christ and the apostles and were necessary, along with the gift of miracles, as an authenticating sign of the apostles (2 Corinthians 12:12)” and so with the authority purpose ceased all the purposes of tongues has ceased therefore the gift is no longer needed and has ceased.

Personally, I find mostly the frantic arguments against tongues stem from one core belief: Fear.Tongues are weird...they are supernatural, obviously so...and they are initially kind of frightening to the natural man...At least, this was a large part of the case in my situation...

That may have been true for you but do not tar all the cessationists with the same brush.

 

[BabtizedintheFire]

People nowadays can speak in tonges. It is proof that you have the gifts from the holy spirit. I have not been personly speaking in tongues but, my cousin and most of the people at my church can. But every one can speak in them. Speaking in tongues is to get closer to GOD. It helps to desguise what you say from the enemy(satin and his followers). You dont know what you are saying. It is the holy spirit flowing straight from you. You know some of what you are saying but not all.

I hope i have helped clarify this. Thank you.

 

[kindredAngel777]

The Gift of Tongues is Biblical however it ceased a very long time ago! People cannot speak in tongues nowadays!!

I believe the same thing

 

[Iosias]

I believe the same thing

Unfortunately not many do on CF

 

[Iosias]

People nowadays can speak in tonges. It is proof that you have the gifts from the holy spirit... But every one can speak in them. Speaking in tongues is to get closer to GOD. It helps to desguise what you say from the enemy(satin and his followers). You dont know what you are saying. It is the holy spirit flowing straight from you. You know some of what you are saying but not all.

I hope I have helped clarify this. Thank you.

I am afraid that you have not clarified anything! All you have stated is opinion...where are the Biblical references for these opinions? Provide us Biblical references shewing:

1. "People nowadays can speak in tonges"
2. "It is proof that you have the gifts from the holy spirit"
3. "Speaking in tongues is to get closer to GOD"
4. "It helps to desguise what you say from the enemy"
5. "You dont know what you are saying" but "You know some of what you are saying but not all."

For everyone that cannot be defended scripturally you MUST reject!

 

[alaskamolly]

The Bible points solely to one purpose of tongues and that is to be a sign. John MacArthur, in his commentary upon 1 Corinthians, distinguishes 3 sign purposes of tongues: (1) a sign of cursing, (2) a sign of blessing, and (3) a sign of authority. Now at Pentecost the purpose of gifts was to shew Israel that they were being set aside and were going to be judged which occured in AD70 therefore the purpose of cursing has ceased. Tongues were a sign of blessing because with Israel being set aside the door was being opened to the gentiles and so with the sign of blessing done the blessing purpose has ceased. And “Tongues were a part of the miraculous era of Christ and the apostles and were necessary, along with the gift of miracles, as an authenticating sign of the apostles (2 Corinthians 12:12)” and so with the authority purpose ceased all the purposes of tongues has ceased therefore the gift is no longer needed and has ceased.

AV,

This is all assumption.
You were just getting after the last poster for making assumptions, but that is exactly what your argument rests on. Assumptions...

Extra-Biblical-Assumptions about era's, extra-Biblical-assumptions about whether or not the Perfect is close enough to warrant tongues cessation, extra-Biblical-assumptions about what the gift of tongues is and is not for...

Your assumptions are not clearly stated in Scripture.

They are clearly stated, perhaps, in your interpretation of Scripture, but they are not actually THERE on the black-and-white pages of the Bible.



That being said, it is, of course, fine for you to have assumptions. We all do. It's just good to recognize when one is basing things from assumption or absolute fact.

Blessings,
Molly

 

[JVD]

I apologize for not reading all 12 pages of this . I just read the first and last.

In my opinion both the people who believe they are speaking in tongues, and the people who believe that tongues speaking is not for today are both acting on assumptions. There isn't any other thing we can act on.

The people who believe they are speaking in tongues have to assume that the tongue they are using is the same as that spoken of in the Bible. It does fit some of the criteria but there is no way that one can tell that it is what the tongues spoken of by the apostle Paul. People just believe it is because they feel good about it and they want it to be so. They believe that the Holy Spirit has given it to them. I am very close to tongues speakers and have the occasion to hear it often. I have been open to it myself in the past and have had people lay hands on me etc.

Then those who don't believe it is for today are also acting on only their assumptions. There is no way that they can prove from the Bible that the tongues that are being spoken are not the real thing. They do have a right to criticize it when it is not used correctly according to scripture. They can try make Biblical interpretations fit their assumptions but their interpretations are really no better than those who interpret the same verses differently. Neither interpretion is totally out of line with good practice.

In this issue and in the other sign gifts I think we need to give all fellow christians some room to move.

 

[BabtizedintheFire]

I am afraid that you have not clarified anything! All you have stated is opinion...where are the Biblical references for these opinions? Provide us Biblical references shewing:

1. "People nowadays can speak in tonges"
2. "It is proof that you have the gifts from the holy spirit"
3. "Speaking in tongues is to get closer to GOD"
4. "It helps to desguise what you say from the enemy"
5. "You dont know what you are saying" but "You know some of what you are saying but not all."

For everyone that cannot be defended scripturally you MUST reject!

Ok here are your References:

1: Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday today and forever." Revelation 19:13 "He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood and His name is called The Word of God." Revelation 19:16 "And He has on His robe and on His thigh a Name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS." Thus the Word which is Him is the same yesterday today and tomorrow. 1 Peter 2:23 "having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God wich lives and abides forever." Which means that the Word of God is not void but the same for yesterday today and tomorrow.
2: 1 Corinthians 12
3: 1 Corinthians 14:2,4
4: 1 Corinthians 14:2 "For he who speaks in a tounge does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however in the spirit he speaks mysteries."
5: 1 Corinthians 14:15

We will be pray for you that the Holy Spirit my lead you to the answers that you seek for the Word says John 14:14 "If you ask anything in My name, I will do it." Also try reading John 14:16-17 about the Holy Spirit which is the Spirit of Truth. I will no longer be talking about this subject because the Spirit of the Lord will guide you from now on if you seek him. It is not about head knowlege but about heart knowlege and faith. God bless you my friend.

 

[alaskamolly]

In this issue and in the other sign gifts I think we need to give all fellow christians some room to move.

I really agree with this statement. We can correctly condemn activity which goes directly against Scripture, but in many areas, I think that we need to supply a measure of Christian freedom.

Not only do I believe tongues are for today, but I practice them... However, we attend a church (actually, my husband is on staff at our church) where most of the members do NOT believe tongues are for today.

We are very comfortable with our beliefs, and do not feel the need to push them on everybody (we don't try to hide them, but they are not something we go fly a flag up for). The rest of the staff is comfortable with our beliefs and respects our right to have a differing opinion and practice. Works for us!


The Holy Spirit was given to us to open our eyes and show us JESUS CHRIST. The purpose of all supernatural gifts are for that one thing: to bring the Church into comprehension of her Head (Christ!). When the Holy Spirit is truly at work, you will see a lifting up of Jesus Christ, whether it is done through supernatural gifts, expository preaching, prayer between two believers, or a servant of God cleaning toilets in a communist prison.

Blessings,
Mol

 

[JVD]

I'm not going to argue with you because I truly believe we need to give others freedom.

However, personally, after observing tongues speaking for many many years, I have made the "assumption", that it is false.

I do not make an issue of it because others in our church practice it...members of my family practice it. So at home and in church I am very careful not to condemn the practice. I don't think there is a lot of harm in it and there is always the possibility that I could be wrong.

However, just like legalism can creep into a church and eventually almost take over the work of Christ, sensationalism in the sign gifts can do the same thing to the other extreme. I have watched a pastor really manipulate his congregation because he wanted to lead them into the "power" of the signs and wonders. We all need to be careful that we keep the focus on Christ.