Speaking in Tounges

Iosias · Aug 19, 2004

Quaffer said:
Recently as in when?

The Pentecostal Movement started with Aimee Semple McPherson (1890-1944) the Charismatic with Demos Shakarian (1913-) and the Modern Liturgical Renewal with John Wimber (1934-1997) so recognising these dates we can safely say that the Charismatic movement would have begun around the 1920s.

You are basing your view's on experience too. . .the experience of nothing.

No in fact this is wrong...I was brought up in a Charismatic Baptist church and so I have seen and heard these 'gifts' in action...Nice try at a cheap shot though

SpiritPsalmist · Aug 19, 2004

AV1611 said:
The Pentecostal Movement started with Aimee Semple McPherson (1890-1944) the Charismatic with Demos Shakarian (1913-) and the Modern Liturgical Renewal with John Wimber (1934-1997) so recognising these dates we can safely say that the Charismatic movement would have begun around the 1920s.

Well using the term Charasmatic maybe but not the manifestations that one usually associates with Penticostals. You think it started with Aimee? Not quite. Most denominations, even those that are anti-Penticostal today began with Penticostal manifestations. It was people wanting to please other people in these denominations that they began to stop. Even some of the Penticostal churches today don't allow it very much anymore because they are afraid of offending someone.

AV1611 said:
No in fact this is wrong...I was brought up in a Charismatic Baptist church and so I have seen and heard these 'gifts' in action...Nice try at a cheap shot though

I apologize. . .I was not intending to make a cheap shot. I'm really sorry that whatever it was that offended you to the point of concluding that the gifts were not real happened. I went through that once too. Just keep searching though. . .Learn Greek and Hebrew and study it on your own, instead of depending on what other's say it is.

FoundInGrace · Aug 20, 2004

Does it really matter whether tongues exist today or not?

Iosias · Aug 20, 2004

Quaffer said:
I apologize. . .I was not intending to make a cheap shot. I'm really sorry that whatever it was that offended you to the point of concluding that the gifts were not real happened. I went through that once too. Just keep searching though. . .Learn Greek and Hebrew and study it on your own, instead of depending on what other's say it is.

Apology accepted but I think that it serves to illustrate an important point...many cessationists are cessationist not because they have not experienced the sign gifts but because they have studied scripture and seen what these 'gifts' are. For example...the gift of tongues is not a prayer language because how can a sign-gift be designed to be used privately? A simple study of scripture will sort out this confusion.

As for learning Greek...even this will not solve the problem as many Greek scholars disagree on the meanings of words so even then it is not clear cut . The sign-gifts have a purpose and so the correct apporach to understanding when they shall cease is to proceed teleologically.

Iosias · Aug 20, 2004

FoundInGrace said:
Does it really matter whether tongues exist today or not?

Yes it does! :crosself:

LynneClomina · Aug 20, 2004

FoundInGrace said:
Does it really matter whether tongues exist today or not?

yes, becuase if you speak in tongues, people who believe they do not exist think you are a flake. and if you dont believe in tongues, people who do think you are missing out on the Holy Spirit....

it's important that a person knows in their own heart what they believe, so that they can stand up to conflict witout wavering in their faith.

JVD · Aug 20, 2004

Does it really matter whether tongues exist today or not?

Yes...because the signs and wonders movement has it's basis in the pentecostal/charismatic movement. The signs and wonders movement is the fastest growing christian movement in the world today. An extension of this movement is the restoration/dominionist movement which with thier "Joel's Army" and "manifest sons of god" hopes to actually take dominion over the church and if possible...the world (for God),.

If tongues do not exist today the very foundation of all these movements crumbles.

They are all based on on the existence of special mystical signs of the power of God. They extend from tongues, to words of knowledge, to special revelation, to special power and "anointing", to special authority and office (the office of prophet and apostle).

All of these groups, while diverse in teaching and practice, base their main focus on the power of the Holy Spirit working in believers. That is , they are "spirit filled". The primary evidence of being spirit filled is to speak in tongues.

So, in the end, this vast and growing movement is based on a controversial interpretation of scripture. It is based on these two conclusions, One: their particular interpretation of the biblical reference to tongues is correct, and Two: The sounds that come out of their mouth are in fact the same as the tongues spoken of in Acts and I Corinthians.

oworm · Aug 21, 2004

MK 16:15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

Ok for those who speak in tongues on this thread.Are you also handling snakes and drinking deadly fluids ?

AC 2:1 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

AC 2:5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language? Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs--we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!" Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, "What does this mean?"

Are your listeners able to understand the tongues in their own language ? From the passage quoted above that seems to have been the intention of the tongues as there was a multilingual multi national multitude of people around when the Spirit came!

1CO 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? But eagerly desire the greater gifts.

And now I will show you the most excellent way.

If speaking in tongues is evidence of Spirit baptism,what about those who dont have the gift of tongues?(Inferred from the passage quoted above) Dont they also have the spirit? If then not all have the gift of tongues then it has to be concluded from the evidence of the scripture passage quoted
above that tongue speaking is not evidence of Spirit baptism !?

1CO 14:6 Now, brothers, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the flute or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and he is a foreigner to me. So it is with you. Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church.

1CO 14:13 For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind. If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying? You may be giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified.

If anyone speaks in a tongue, two--or at the most three--should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God

Are your tongues being interpreted? If not then its clear there should be no tongue speaking is it not? And is the tongue speaking in an orderly manner and not a cacophony of babble from multiple speakers?

But eagerly desire the greater gifts.

And now I will show you the most excellent way.

1CO 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Tongues are way down on the list of gifts. Most instances ive seen of tongue speakers came from what Jesus would refer to as "trumpeteers" You know the type? They like to be seen as displaying their wonderful gift while others put themselves through mental torture wondering why they havent been blessed by the "gift"

MT 6:5 "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full."

oworm · Aug 21, 2004

steelmagnolia said:
I recieved the Holy Spirit the very moment I accepted Christ as my Lord and Saviour.
I don't have to speak in tongues to prove I'm a blood bought child of God - born again.

Note the simple grasp of biblical theology

oworm · Aug 21, 2004

Well ive spent most of the daylight hours of this day reading through this rather longwinded thread. Ive noted: frustration;anger;accusation;bloody mindedness.
In the last analysis we have to conclude that backbiting and this kind of "debate" isnt really having the desired effect on those we would wish changed on a theological viewpoint,especially as the issue of tongues is a non essential element of salvation. Isnt it wonderfull we have a God of Grace, Mercy,Patience and variety who accepts all those who have come to faith in Christ regardless of preconcieved,illconcieved and illinformed theological viewpoints?

Heres a little anecdotal thought we would all do well to memorise when interacting across denominational divides:

In essentials..................Unity

In non essentials........... Liberty

In all things................... Charity !

Iosias · Aug 21, 2004

oworm said:
Well ive spent most of the daylight hours of this day reading through this rather longwinded thread. Ive noted: frustration;anger;accusation;bloody mindedness.
In the last analysis we have to conclude that backbiting and this kind of "debate" isnt really having the desired effect on those we would wish changed on a theological viewpoint,especially as the issue of tongues is a non essential element of salvation. Isnt it wonderfull we have a God of Grace, Mercy,Patience and variety who accepts all those who have come to faith in Christ regardless of preconcieved,illconcieved and illinformed theological viewpoints?

Heres a little anecdotal thought we would all do well to memorise when interacting across denominational divides:

In essentials..................Unity

In non essentials........... Liberty

In all things................... Charity !

As someone who is a strict cessationist I wish to say "hogwash". Cessationism is an essential and is therefore a separating issue.

oworm · Aug 21, 2004

AV1611 said:
As someone who is a strict cessationist I wish to say "hogwash". Cessationism is an essential and is therefore a separating issue.

That implies then that those who are not cessationists are not Christians

SpiritPsalmist · Aug 21, 2004

oworm said:
That implies then that those who are not cessationists are not Christians

It also implies that those who do speak in tongues are only faking it or being led by demon's in doing so. . .which would also mean they are not Christians. There seems to be a general misunderstanding among the cessationists. . .that is. . .that the foundation of the non-cessationists is tongues. While it seems to be the most argued about I can guarentee that any person who is mature in their walk with God does not make tongues a big issue. Generally though, as with most anything, that is how you can tell the mature from the immature.

I know personally, in my walk with God for 40 plus years now, it's been my time with Him talking with Him in my prayer language that has given me the strength I need to be an overcomer verses being overcome. Just because someone decides that it does not exist does not make it so. It does not exist for them because they have decided in their own heart that it does not exist but it's certaintly NOT because scripture say's it. . .scripture say's the very opposite.

God has given to every believer the abilty to speak with Him on His level. 1 Cor 14 spells it out but if some choose to think they don't need it then that is their perogative. No one can be forced to believe something they choose not to.

ShaunJ · Aug 21, 2004

AV1611 said:
As someone who is a strict cessationist I wish to say "hogwash". Cessationism is an essential and is therefore a separating issue.

I guess I'll never be as Christian as you

SpiritPsalmist · Aug 21, 2004

AV1611 said:
As someone who is a strict cessationist I wish to say "hogwash". Cessationism is an essential and is therefore a separating issue.

Seperating as "saved and unsaved"?

oworm · Aug 21, 2004

AV1611 said:
As someone who is a strict cessationist I wish to say "hogwash". Cessationism is an essential and is therefore a separating issue.

It may inferred from your rather abrupt reply brother that you have much growing in grace yet to attain in discoursing with other brethren. It is in that grace you now stand today and in that same grace that God in his mercy does not sweep us all away with a stroke

JVD · Aug 21, 2004

I'm sorry. I no longer feel that I can leave it alone . As you can see from my last post I feel this is too important to leave alone. If we do not deal with this issue now, we are going to have huge problems in the future.

I also used to feel that this was a non-essential and we should just agree to disagree. But there is a violent storm brewing and tongues is just part of it. If the church does not deal with it, than only a remnant will remain.

I do not currently question the salvation of most in the word-faith, signs and wonders movement, but I am beginning to question the salvation of many of the leaders. I think their faith may be misplaced.

Sascha Fitzpatrick · Aug 21, 2004

I agree with you, Oworm (unity, diversity, charity) - well said

I've been trying to say this in a few 'emotive' threads - but not that concisely!

Well done!

Sasch

oworm · Aug 21, 2004

Sascha Fitzpatrick said:
I agree with you, AV (unity, diversity, charity) - well said

Sasch

WHERE DID HE SAY "UNITY DIVERSITY CHARITY"????

Sascha Fitzpatrick · Aug 21, 2004

OOOPS! Didn't realise it was a quote!!!

Sorry oworm! Bad Sasch!

Sasch

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