Speaking in Tounges

Iosias · Aug 11, 2004

riverpastor said:
So you agree that tongues is available today to the believer? Or else how could there be an abuse of it?

The gift was being abused by the Corinthians by them faking it just as the Charismatic and Pentecostal movement does today.

I don't see anywhere in the Corinthians letter about cursing and judgement...

I am not surprised as you seem to be blinded to the truth.

riverpastor · Aug 11, 2004

So, the Corinthian church abused a gift that wasn't real???? How did this ever come about???

Maybe Paul faked it??? Peter???

No, AV1611, I was blinded as you once were and argued finer points than these until I met the Lord in a vision, just like Paul on the road to Damascus. Or maybe we should count that experience out as well??? Toss it from the Bible.

Where are specific scriptures on "no more experiences in the Holy Ghost" after such-and-such date???

I still have no answer for this??? Scripturally.

SongOfTheLamb · Aug 11, 2004

:o

Romans 14

The Law of Liberty

The Law of Liberty and the Law of Love
1 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. 2For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. 3Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.
5One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord;[1] and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. 7For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord's. 9For to this end Christ died and rose[2] and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living. 10But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.[3] 11For it is written:

"As I live, says the LORD,
Every knee shall bow to Me,
And every tongue shall confess to God."[4]

12So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. 13Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother's way.

ooooooo did I just quote this??:notme:

:troll:

riverpastor · Aug 11, 2004

Thanks Song. How refreshing!

ShaunJ · Aug 12, 2004

Where are specific scriptures on "no more experiences in the Holy Ghost" after such-and-such date???

I still have no answer for this??? Scripturally.

Oh! Oh! Oh!

I have the answer to this one!!!

1Cor13:9For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

Hmmm, anyone seen Jesus around lately?

He is the only thing I know of that is "perfect"

riverpastor · Aug 12, 2004

Too funny ShaunJ!

Everyone knows that these spiritual gifts died out with the last apostle...

Hebrews 3:1 - Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus...

Well, hockey puck! There is still One Apostle still living!!!

Yebo · Aug 12, 2004

Greetings from a sunny South Africa

Speaking in tongues is either a gift from the Holy Spirit or proof of baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Lets look at what happened to Saul/Paul shortly after he met the Lord on the road. He got up from the ground (slain in the Spirit?) open his eyes but could not see. They led him by the hand and brought him to Damascus. There a certain man, called Ananias, prayed for Paul and his eyesight was restored by the Lord as well as Paul being filled/baptized in the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17). In Acts 22:12, Paul described this Ananias as a devout man according to the law with a good testimony before others. This Ananias (neither to be confused with Ananias and Sapphira mentioned in Acts 5:1-10 nor the Ananias mentioned in Acts 23:2) was merely a disciple and NOT an apostle (Acts 9:10). This is very significant simply because Pauls apostleship was not founded on the ministry of another apostle by implication the laying up of hands by another apostle. Paul confirm this in his letter to the churches of Galatia - Gal 1:1: Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead

A similar thing happened to Cornelius. Cornelius was a devout man and one that feared God and prayed to God always.(Acts 10:2). According to Acts 10:44 47, the Holy Spirit fell (filled/baptised) all who HEARD the word spoken by Peter. Nowhere is it mentioned that there was any laying up of hands here. The baptism in the Holy Spirit of those present (Cornelius and his whole household) is confirmed in Acts 11:15 where Peter said: And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Surely Peter is referring to what took place at Pentecost (Acts 1 and 2). Acts 10:46 indicates that there was speaking in tongues, thereby confirming that any filling/baptism in the Holy Spirit is accompanied with the speaking in tongues. Please note that this all happened before Cornelius or those present was baptised with water.

From these two paragraphs it is quite clear that people can and are being filled/baptised in the Holy Spirit without an Apostle present or the laying up of hands. Baptism in the Holy Spirit will be accompanied by the speaking in tongues and other gifts (1 Cor 12 or even Rom 12) as the Spirit will.

Also please note the contents of 1 Cor 14:39 where Paul wrote to the brethren Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak in tongues. Aren't we all brethren in Christ Jesus? Could it be that you and me and all other people accepting Jesus as lord and Saviour are included in this word or was this only directed to the 12 apostles, Cornelius and his kinsmen hopefully all being Jews? I know we are included.

It happens that people say Today we have the Bible to teach us God's will hence no use for amongst others speaking in tongues. Be very careful with a statement like this. Paul wrote in 2 Cor 3:6 the following: He made us competent as ministers of a new covenant not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. The LOGOS word kills but the RHEMA word gives life. Furthermore from the book 1 John 2:27, it is evident that the Spirit teaches all things and not the Bible. David was quite familiar with this notion and even wrote in Ps 32:8 and 9 the following: The Lord says, I will guide you along the best pathway for your life. I will advise you and watch over you. Do not be like a senseless horse or mule that needs a bit and bridle to keep it under control.

Be BLESSED by the BEST and stay within the confinements of PEACE

Iosias · Aug 12, 2004

riverpastor said:
So, the Corinthian church abused a gift that wasn't real???? How did this ever come about???

Maybe Paul faked it??? Peter???

Let me sum up my position...The is such a thing as speaking in tongues and this is defined thus: the supernatural ability to speak a foreign language, which one does not already know. There are then the true gift and the fake gift and the Corinthian church was abusing the gift of tongues by practicing it or using it is a way that it was not meant to be used. Firstly, they were using it for self-edification i.e. without interpretation and this is wrong because it was meant to be used for a sign to unbelievers and the only way that tongues would be useful is with translation. Secondly, they were abusing the true gift by faking it which necessitated Paul to write to them explaining what it was for and how they should use it shewing that faking it served no purpose and was not what God desired.

A simplistic summary of the cessationist case is thus: The purpose of the gift of tongues has ceased and therefore the need for the gift has ceased and so we know therefore that the gift of tongues has ceased also. This is also backed up by 1 Corinthians 13:1, which shows that tongues were a temporary gift to which we can add the fact that in verse 9 of the same chapter we can see that tongues are not mentioned to cease when the perfect comes to which we can deduce that they will have ceased prior to that which is perfect, coming.

Maybe you could shew us the purpose of the gift as you believe it to be?

Where are specific scriptures on "no more experiences in the Holy Ghost" after such-and-such date???

I still have no answer for this??? Scripturally.

I will shew you mine after you shew me those that state "The gift of tongues will still exist in the 21st Century"

riverpastor · Aug 12, 2004

av1611 said:
I will shew you mine after you shew me those that state "The gift of tongues will still exist in the 21st Century"

Right!?!?!?!?

That's the answer I was looking for!

Did you get a chance to read Yebo's post or are you so adamant at sticking me that you passed over those scriptures? That's some pretty good stuff, no?

Iosias · Aug 12, 2004

Yebo said:
From these two paragraphs it is quite clear that people can and are being filled/baptised in the Holy Spirit without an Apostle present or the laying up of hands. Baptism in the Holy Spirit will be accompanied by the speaking in tongues and other gifts (1 Cor 12 or even Rom 12) as the Spirit will.

river pastor...I cannot disagree with Yebo here however I will state this...this experience is specific to the period of Acts. Tongues confirmed that Cornelius had been saved however this is specific to the transition period of Acts...I take it you do not adhere to baptismal regeneration? yet this is what Acts 2:38 teaches...one need read Acts dispensationally as a transition from the dispensation of law to the dispensation of Spirit/grace. It is NOT a doctrinal book but rather a narrative book. Church doctrine is found in the Pauline epistles not the book of the ACTS OF THE APOSTLES.

riverpastor · Aug 12, 2004

Good we all agree then...

Paul wrote about speaking in tongues, so it's settled.

Iosias · Aug 12, 2004

riverpastor said:
Good we all agree then...

Paul wrote about speaking in tongues, so it's settled.

But where did Paul say that all will speak with tongues or that it was a sign of salvation as you seem to believe?

2LivIsChrist · Aug 12, 2004

yes it is a gift from God. I do for one speak in tongues. I do believe some people fake it though. It just flows out of you, sometimes and you can't help it. My friend, when she first got saved she didn't even know what tongues was, and the day she got saved, a un known language just started to come out of her, so you know it has to still be active and real, because she never heard of it before. I just don't like it when people pressure you to speak in tongues, because its all Gods timing, and not the people around you.

aggie03 · Aug 12, 2004

Riverpastor, I have a reply to the other things that you have said in the works, I don't want you to think that I have forgotten about or neglected you But in the meantime, I wanted to add this:

riverpastor said:
Good we all agree then...

Paul wrote about speaking in tongues, so it's settled.

Well, our agreement that Paul wrote something about the various uses of certain manifestations of the Holy Spirit really has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. What we must come to an agreement on is that Paul also wrote about all of these things passing away in 1 Corinthians chapter 13.

fadedblue · Aug 13, 2004

hello all

i've been reading through this thread, although i admit, i skimmed through some of the longer posts...it's late here and i'm tired ! but it's really opened up a topic that i've never really learned or looked too much into...i personally don't speak in tongues, nor have i ever seen/heard anyone speak in tongues. do i believe in it? i can't really say cause i really haven't given it much thought. however, i have read a lot of the back and forth debates on the topic and questioned some of the thinking. hey, to each their own, but seriously, a lot of the arguments are really based on intepretation. and i noticed that a lot of you take your verses from different translations of the bible and then interpret that the way you feel is correct, or at least the way you learned. now, i usually read the NIV, but i have a NLT bible in my room and i decided to grab that and flip through some of the verses some of you put out there. again, i have no opinion on this--but i suggest maybe going through the same verse in different translations and seeing if that changes anything. it's just nice to be more open minded about your own argument and willing to see that perhaps another person's differing argument could have some merit. hey, it's the word of God, but we don't all view it the same way. we're not gonna know until we actually i don't know, ask Him!

but okay, for example:
1 Corinthians 14
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. (ASV)

this has been interpreted as a strike against tongues existing today. but NLT translates the verse as thus:

1 Corinthians 14
For if your gift is the ability to speak in tongues, you will be talking to God but not to people, since they won't be able to understand you. (NLT)

you get my drift? another verse:

1 Corinthians 8-10
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. (KJV)

vs. NLT

1 Corinthians 13:8-10
Love will last forever, but prophecy and speaking in unknown languages and special knowledge will all disappear. Now we know only a little, and even the gift of prophecy reveals little! But when the end comes, these special gifts will disappear. (NLT)

of course, i'm certain that you could all debunk my slightly naive way of looking at things, but i'm just hoping everyone will be more open minded and play nice! we are all brothers and sisters in Christ...even though sometimes we may disagree, we should ultimately be lifting each other up

aggie03 · Aug 13, 2004

Ive noticed that there has been much said since I was last here Im glad to see that theres a great deal of interest in this particular thread. Before we go on any further then, I would like everyone to remember that when you read the things that I write, you cant hear my voice; you cant see the facial expressions Im using so youll have to take it, on good faith , that the things I write are done so with the best intentions for all, and in a gentle and peaceable manner. I am not intending to bash anyone, only preach and teach the things which the Scriptures teach. IF it is ever out intent in writing on these forums to win the argument then we are approaching what were doing here with the wrong attitude. Rather, we ought to approach each discussion with the idea of learning more about what the Scriptures teach, and applying that learning to our lives, beliefs and worship. May God be proven true, even if we are found to be false (Romans 3:4).

riverpastor said:
I agree with you 100%.

I must be an Apostle then. I've laid hands on folks and they have received the infilling of the Spirit with speaking in tongues.

Really? Which qualifications do you meet? Im being very serious here, because you make a very serious claim. There are only two types of Apostles real and false. If you claim to be an Apostles, and you cant prove it, that makes you false. This isnt something that I have decided, but this is what the Scriptures teach. If this is the claim that you are making, then it is my duty as a Christian to be on guard in the event that you might be a false apostle (2 Corinthians 11:13). Mind now, that I am not calling you a false apostle, but merely saying that if you are going to make this claim, then it is my intention to test the spirits (1 John 4:1), and like the church in Ephesus, to see whether or not you are true (Revelation 2:2).

As for the rest of your discourse aggie03, you tire me.

I really do hesitate to call this a dodge, but thats what it seems to be. Im not an immature child that you can shove aside by acting as though youre being high-minded. Personally, I find this rather insulting, and completely against what I find in the Scriptures.

For example, when Paul was summoned frequently to converse with Felix (Acts 24:26,27) do you suppose that he ever answered him by saying, You know, Felix, you really tire me. No, of course not, that would be entirely out of character with an Apostle. Every opportunity that Paul was given he preached the gospel, he defended the faith. This is what I have asked you to do and it ought not to tire you, especially if youre an Apostle.

I don't expect you to have revelation. Once you have it, you know it. And you would not question it in someone else's life either (that is, rvelation by the Holy Spirit).

You had better believe that I would question it! If someone tells me that they are receiving a direct revelation from God, then they had better be able to prove it! The very reason why God allowed miracles to be performed was for the purpose of proving that something was from Him (Mark 16:20)!!!

If you are claiming that things are revealed to you by the Holy Spirit, then thats a miracle so Im asking you to prove it this after all is why you would even have these gifts

Keep in mind, that we are told to test the spirits(1John 4:1)

It's like bungee jumping. You can't explain the experience and the truth about it unless you've jumped yourself.

I whole-heartedly disagree with you, in the most sincere and polite way that I can. Christianity is not a better felt than told experience, bur rather it ought to be the conscious choice that one makes to dedicate their lives to God on a daily basis because they have proven within themselves that God is true, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, based upon the very word of God that we have this day, the Scriptures.

Did the Jews just suddenly believe for no reason at all on the day of Pentecost? No, Peter reasoned with them from the Scriptures why Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God (Acts 2).

Did Paul write to Timothy that he would have to feel something, or be illuminated in order to be complete? No, instead he said the following:

2 Timothy 3:16-17 ASV

Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness. (17) That the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work.

Where does the power to be complete come from? The Scriptures.

Acts 2:39

- For the promise [of the Holy Spirit] is to and for you and your children, and to and for all that are far away, [even] to and for as many as the Lord our God invites and bids to come to Himself. (AMP)

Here, I use the same scripture that you used above to show that it is the gift of the Holy Ghost that is the promise to as many as the Lord our God invites and bids to come to Himself.

I noticed that your translation also adds some words that significantly alter the text.

This is what verse 39 ought to say, without anything added:

Acts 2: 39 ASV

(39) For to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, as many as the Lord our God shall call unto him.

To say that it is speaking only of salvation is only your interpretation. But, I guess if my interpretation is different then that makes me "bunk"?!?!?!

One of them is incorrect, you are absolutely right, because God only had intent for one of them. Which one is incorrect we must decide by considering the sum of Gods word (Psalm 119:160), for only when we consider the sum of His word, do we consider the Truth. Besides, if youre really an Apostle, you should be able to prove to me that I what you are saying is the Truth, that it is from God.

The scripture above does not say that the promise is for all those who choose of their own will and make it up in their own mind to come to God.... No, it says "for as many as the LORD OUR GOD SHALL CALL" (KJV).

How did God call the people in Acts chapter 2? It was through the preaching of the Scriptures, not some illumination. Paul says that the gospel is the power unto salvation (Romans 1:16), not illumination. People are to be saved by hearing the word preached (Romans 10:17) and then responding to it like the Jews did in Acts chapter 2. When you have the gospel preached to you, you have a choice to either obey or to ignore it. God wants everyone to be saved (2 Peter 3:9, 1 Timothy 2:4), and He bids everyone to respond, but only those who do are called, that is, once you respond you become one of the called.

If He called you through scriptures, then it was by revelation. The point is, He called. RHEMA. His voice utters the call. His voice speaks His Word.

This isnt what the Scriptures say. Rather they seem to teach the following:

Hebrews 1:1-2 ASV

God, having of old time spoken unto the fathers in the prophets by divers portions and in divers manners,(2) hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things,through whom also he made the worlds

John 16:13-15 ASV

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but what things soever he shall hear, these shall he speak: and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come. (14) He shall glorify me: for he shall take of mine, and shall declare it unto you. (15) All things whatsoever the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he taketh of mine, and shall declare it unto you.

1 Corinthians 2:10-13 ASV

But unto us God revealed them through the Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. (11) For who among men knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of the man, which is in him? even so the things of God none knoweth, save the Spirit of God.(12) But we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God; that we might know the things that were freely given to us of God. (13) Which things also we speak, not in words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Spirit teacheth; combining spiritual things with spiritual words.

Ephesians 3:3-4 ASV

how that by revelation was made known unto me the mystery, as I wrote before in few words, (4) whereby,when ye read,ye can perceive my understanding in the mystery of Christ;

These passages are straightforward in what they teach. God has spoken in these last time through His Son. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would come and guide the Apostles into all Truth, and the Holy Spirit would speak what Jesus told Him to speak, things from God. The Holy Spirit then proceeded to tell the Apostles all of the things that Jesus wanted to be recorded, and what they were told, they wrote. What the Apostles wrote, then, we can understand when we READ.

aggie03 · Aug 13, 2004

It's in the Kingdom. Peel your eyes off the bark and see the forest. There is so much more that you're not seeing because you are only looking at a certain depth - a certain level. And it is at that level that you are probably trying to do the best you can with the Word. When you look at a rock beneath the water, are you looking at the water or the rock? From the way you write, you can only see at water level.

Im simply not going beyond what is written:

1 Corinthians 4:6 ASV

Now these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes;that in us ye might learn not to go beyond the things which are written;that no one of you be puffed up for the one against the other.

What you have said is clever, kind of cute in its own little way but again, I am not a little child to be turned away with seemingly high-minded speech. If what you saying is the truth, then you ought to be able to prove it from the Scriptures. If you are really an Apostle then you must prove yourself to be true, or else you are false those are the only two options. This is what the Bereans did:

Acts 17:10-11 ASV

And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who when they were come thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. (11) Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of the mind, examining the Scriptures daily, whether these things were so.

The Bereans accepted the word gladly because they could prove it to be true!!!

No, I can't find specific scriptures for the things I've seen.

I cant provide Scriptures for tying my shoes, but I can prove to you using the Bible that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. This is what I would like to seeproof for what you claim to be true regarding God.

Let me example you: I was in a meeting and the Lord gave me a vision of a huge boulder as I was praying for a man I'd never met. I was communicating with the Holy Spirit and pondering this image. The Lord spoke in Spirit to me and said the word "chisel".

As I began to tell this man what I saw and what I heard the Lord broke open a flow of information for this man through me. The Lord spoke to me of how this man had been through sorrows and rejection and that the Lord was using those things to "chisel" him into the man of God that the Lord wanted him to be. As I was saying these things, this man began to smile and nodding his head.

I continued to minister to other people. Afterwards, I talked with this man again and I asked him if what the Lord had shown me was something that he needed. He told me that he was going through several things with his estranged spouse and with the church where he had been recently attending (feeling rejection on both accounts). But then he said, "and about two weeks ago I was praying about these things and when I went to be that night I dreamed of a chisel. I've been praying to the Lord for two weeks now to show me what that chisel meant."

This word proved to be an encouragement for a man who was hurting and in pain and did not understand what was happening to him through these circumstances.

I didn't have scripture for a chisel. I didn't have scripture for the boulder. What I do have is an authority and privilege as a son of God to enter into the realm of the Kingdom and to minister to others through the power of the Living Christ. How do I access the Kingdom of God. By faith.

This is a very nice story but I would ask that you prove the things you teach with the Scriptures. The fact that you can write out a nice story proves absolutely nothing especially if youre claiming to be an Apostle. Peter didnt tell people nice stories, but he had healed so many people that the Jews tried to merely have his shadow fall on them ! In other words he was extremely popular!!! He didnt tell stories, but he proved things in the way that God intended for them to be proved, with miracles:

Acts 5:12-16 ASV

And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people;and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch. (13) But of the rest durst no man join himself to them: howbeit the people magnified them; (14) and believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women;(15) insomuch that they even carried out the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that, as Peter came by, at the least his shadow might overshadow some one of them.(16) And there also came together the multitudes from the cities round about Jerusalem, bring sick folk, and them that were vexed with unclean spirits:and they were healed every one.

First of all the Apostles were doing many wonderful things. Second of all, they were doing so many wonderful things, that Peter was so popular others just wanted to be in his shadow. Thirdly, every single person that Peter tried to heal, was healed. Thats because these were miracles from God, and God does not fail. Ive hurt my knee playing sports can you heal me like Peter healed those people? This would prove to me that you are right and I am wrong, otherwise, you ought to retract your claim to be an Apostle, and start trying to show me from the Scriptures where you can find what you are preaching.

Please remember, that once you claimed to be an Apostle you placed an added burden on me, and it is only in my need to prove you one way or the other that I am being so forward in this post. I am not trying to be mean to you, I am just doing what I believe is necessary to learn the truth.

When we worship Him, do we bow down at the book???

No, of course not, but it is through the Scriptures that we can learn how God wants to be worshipped. I really dont understand what point youre trying to make here, would you mind explaining it, please?

And, on the point of miracles. Seeing you wouldn't believe because you have already decided what your theology is to be.

Not really. I actually have an open mind, and Im waiting for you to heal my legIf you could do that, I would believe you this is after all what the miracles were even given for (Mark 16:20).

I have witnessed literally hundreds of miracles and healings through the power of God in me and through me through my years of missions and pastoring.

So one more ought to be a piece of cake then. I could really use a healthy knee to play some community sports this coming fall

Please understand that it is my sincerest desire that we learn more about God every day, and that we prove Him to be true through the Scriptures that He has given us. This is something that we ought always to endeavor toward, and it is my hope and my sincerest desire that we learn more about God every day, and that we prove Him to be true through the Scriptures that He has given us. This is something that we ought always to endeavor toward at all times in all things. This is the reason for my post giving you a chance to prove what you believe and what you claim to be true either through a miracle or through the Scriptures (though keep in mind to prove that youre an Apostle will require miraculous proof). I pray earnestly that we will search the Scriptures and come to an understanding together. I also pray that youre having a good day. I hope to hear from you soon .

Yebo · Aug 13, 2004

Greetings from a sunny South Africa

aggie03 said:
Well, our agreement that Paul wrote something about the various uses of certain manifestations of the Holy Spirit really has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. What we must come to an agreement on is that Paul also wrote about all of these things passing away in 1 Corinthians chapter 13.

As far as I could determine only 1 Cor 13:8 indicates aspects that will pass away/ cease Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. Lets but only taking 1 of these 3 aspects listed by Paul, namely knowledge. The majority of time the debate revolves around prophecies and tongues and normally never get to knowledge. Lets take knowledge this time!

If my information is correct, Paul used the word gnosis in the quoted scripture. According to the New Strongs Guide to Bible Words, the following is given:

gnw`si"gnoµsis, gno´-sis; from 1097; knowing (the act), i.e. (by impl.) knowledge: knowledge, science

According to my Oxford Advanced Learners Dictionary of Current English (Published by Oxford University Press, Fourteenth Impression 1981), the following is reflected under KNOWLEDGE: 1. understanding: A baby has no ~ of good and evil. 2. familiarity gained by experience; range of information: My ~ of French is poor. K~ of the defeat soon spread. It has come to my ~ (= I have been informed) that you have been spreading gossip about me. To the best of my ~ (=As far as I know) he is honest and reliable. She married without the ~ of her parents. (My underlining)

Based then on the scripture quoted above, understanding as well as familiarity gained by experience; range of information will pass away/cease to exist. The question now arises, has knowledge cease to exist. Apparently not, simply because we still have understanding as well as familiarity gained by experience; range of information. This understanding as well as familiarity gained by experience; range of information will cease, I agree, but only when Jesus is returning.

"Knowledge can also be defined as the truth or facts of life that a person acquires either through experience or thought. The greatest truth that a person can possess with the mind or learn through experience is truth about God (Ps. 46:10; John 8:3132). This cannot be gained by unaided human reason (Job 11:7; Rom. 11:33). It is acquired only as God shows Himself to peoplein nature and conscience (Ps. 19; Rom. 1:1920); in history or providence (Deut. 6:2025; Dan. 2:21); and especially in the Bible (Ps. 119; Rev. 1:13).Mental knowledge by itself, as good as it may be, is inadequate; it is capable only of producing pride (1 Cor. 8:1; 13:2).

Moral knowledge affects a persons will (Prov. 1:7; Phil. 3:1112; 1 John 4:6). It is knowledge of the heart, not the mind alone. The Book of Proverbs deals primarily with this kind of knowledge. Experiential knowledge is that gained through ones experience (Gen. 4:1; 2 Cor. 5:21; 1 John 4:78).

The apostle Pauls wish for the church at Colosse was that they might increase in the knowledge of God (Col. 1:10).

Be BLESSED by the BEST and stay within the confinements of PEACE

Iosias · Aug 13, 2004

fadedblue said:
hello all

i've been reading through this thread, although i admit, i skimmed through some of the longer posts...it's late here and i'm tired ! but it's really opened up a topic that i've never really learned or looked too much into...i personally don't speak in tongues, nor have i ever seen/heard anyone speak in tongues. do i believe in it? i can't really say cause i really haven't given it much thought. however, i have read a lot of the back and forth debates on the topic and questioned some of the thinking. hey, to each their own, but seriously, a lot of the arguments are really based on intepretation. and i noticed that a lot of you take your verses from different translations of the bible and then interpret that the way you feel is correct, or at least the way you learned. now, i usually read the NIV, but i have a NLT bible in my room and i decided to grab that and flip through some of the verses some of you put out there. again, i have no opinion on this--but i suggest maybe going through the same verse in different translations and seeing if that changes anything. it's just nice to be more open minded about your own argument and willing to see that perhaps another person's differing argument could have some merit. hey, it's the word of God, but we don't all view it the same way. we're not gonna know until we actually i don't know, ask Him!

but okay, for example:
1 Corinthians 14
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. (ASV)

this has been interpreted as a strike against tongues existing today. but NLT translates the verse as thus:

1 Corinthians 14
For if your gift is the ability to speak in tongues, you will be talking to God but not to people, since they won't be able to understand you. (NLT)

you get my drift? another verse:

1 Corinthians 8-10
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. (KJV)

vs. NLT

1 Corinthians 13:8-10
Love will last forever, but prophecy and speaking in unknown languages and special knowledge will all disappear. Now we know only a little, and even the gift of prophecy reveals little! But when the end comes, these special gifts will disappear. (NLT)

of course, i'm certain that you could all debunk my slightly naive way of looking at things, but i'm just hoping everyone will be more open minded and play nice! we are all brothers and sisters in Christ...even though sometimes we may disagree, we should ultimately be lifting each other up

Good try however the Authorised King James version is the word of God. All other translations are from a corrupted text and so are useless for basing doctrine. You see, the 'interpreters' interpret the verses as they want them to be understood whilst the AV is not translated that way...it is word translation not sentence translation like all non-KJV texts (with the possible exception of the LITV)...this is however a topic for another thread

Iosias · Aug 13, 2004

Yebo said:
Lets take knowledge this time!...

If my information is correct, Paul used the word gnosis in the quoted scripture. According to the New Strongs Guide to Bible Words, the following is given: ...
Based then on the scripture quoted above, understanding as well as familiarity gained by experience; range of information will pass away/cease to exist. The question now arises, has knowledge cease to exist. Apparently not, simply because we still have understanding as well as familiarity gained by experience; range of information. This understanding as well as familiarity gained by experience; range of information will cease, I agree, but only when Jesus is returning.

I do not quite understand what you are driving at here...could you please expand simply.

Speaking in Tounges

Is speaking in tounges really a Gift?

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No

?????????

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