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Speaking in Tongues

Love Jonezing

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I don't think any of these interpretations are born out of a Scriptural understanding, or one based in the writings of the early Church. I think it makes little sense that "tongues" in this context would mean anything other than knowing languages to proselytize in, especially given other New Testament contexts of "tongues" -- read Acts, and you'll know it was all about spreading the Gospel. There is honestly little to no reason to believe he speaks an esoteric language, particularly given the context of "tongues" elsewhere in the Bible, as well as the historical context of Paul's ministry to spread the Gospel.
You know, you make perfect sense, but I see it differently specifically because of Acts. Take Cornelius for instance, why would he speak with tongues when it was just Peter and a few others in the room? See the confusion I have with this? The men that came to Peter spoke Peter's language and Cornelius spoke Peters language. See the dilemma? Then Act 10:46 says, "For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God". Why didn't the author feel the need to mention the spoken language like he did in Act 2?
 
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Shieldmaiden4Christ

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You know, you make perfect sense, but I see it differently specifically because of Acts. Take Cornelius for instance, why would he speak with tongues when it was just Peter and a few others in the room? See the confusion I have with this? The men that came to Peter spoke Peter's language and Cornelius spoke Peters language. See the dilemma? Then Act 10:46 says, "For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God". Why didn't the author feel the need to mention the spoken language like he did in Act 2?

I'm curious why it would be needed to mention the language? From what I could tell reading the entirety of Acts 10, it's the former nonbelievers speaking in tongues (languages) that were not their native languages. If you look at Acts 2, it doesn't mention the spoken languages as being limited to those, but instead it's a litany of various peoples who could -- by the act of the Holy Spirit -- speak with and understand one another where they had not previously done so. It's a gift specifically for prophecies and proselytizing. It didn't matter what Peter spoke; it was a sign for the other Jews that Gentiles -- specifically the ones with Cornelius, but in general as well -- were worthy of the Holy Spirit. Romans wouldn't need to speak the various languages the Jews might have at the time (and the languages in the Jewish diaspora at the time were varied.)
 
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Love Jonezing

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Well, to me it would make sense to say something about the language because it would tell more of the story. It could read like this, "For they heard them speak Latin and Greek and Hebrew; and everyone glorified God". See what I mean? If there were such a confusion of languages back then and God wanted to spread the gospel to other nations using languages common to others nations, why not mention the other languages. If it is not mentioned, how can I be confident (reading it almost 2000 years later) that the language spoken was applicable to the people hearing it? What language(s) do you think Peter heard on that day? In Act 19:6 it makes sense because everyone that received the Holy Ghost spoke with tongues then prophesied. You see here, everyone benefited from what they have heard. No explanation of languages are necessary.
 
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Shieldmaiden4Christ

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Well, to me it would make sense to say something about the language because it would tell more of the story. It could read like this, "For they heard them speak Latin and Greek; and everyone glorified God". See what I mean? If there were such a confusion of languages back then and God wanted to spread the gospel to other nations using languages common to others nations, why not mention the other languages. If it is not mentioned, how can I be confident (reading it almost 2000 years later) that the language spoken was applicable to the people hearing it? What language(s) do you think Peter heard on that day? In Act 19:6 it makes sense because everyone that received the Holy Ghost spoke with tongues then prophesied. You see here, everyone benefited from what they have heard. No explanation of languages are necessary.

I don't think it would add more to the story, so no I don't see what you mean; I think you're grasping it straws. The point is that they were speaking in a language they otherwise would not have known based on society at the time; it neither adds nor detracts from the story to leave the specific language absent. We could infer many things, one of them being that they were able to communicate in Hebrew or Aramaic, and it would've been unlikely for a non-Jewish Roman citizen to know these languages. This can be inferred because those witnessing the gentiles speaking in tongues were Jewish followers of Christ. The whole point of the entire Cornelius narrative in Acts is to bring the Gentiles into the fold of nascent Christianity. I've read some accounts where they think it's either human languages or divine languages, but nothing speculating the kind of stuff that that goes in in Pentecostal churches.
 
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Love Jonezing

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I don't think it would add more to the story, so no I don't see what you mean; I think you're grasping it straws. The point is that they were speaking in a language they otherwise would not have known based on society at the time; it neither adds nor detracts from the story to leave the specific language absent. We could infer many things, one of them being that they were able to communicate in Hebrew or Aramaic, and it would've been unlikely for a non-Jewish Roman citizen to know these languages. This can be inferred because those witnessing the gentiles speaking in tongues were Jewish followers of Christ. The whole point of the entire Cornelius narrative in Acts is to bring the Gentiles into the fold of nascent Christianity. I've read some accounts where they think it's either human languages or divine languages, but nothing speculating the kind of stuff that that goes in in Pentecostal churches.
Understandable, but what if Pentecostals are not wrong? The reason I say this is because I saw a man and woman come to our church speaking in tongues. They prayed over the mother of our church and she was healed to the point where she leaped really high. They were earnestly praying in the name of Jesus. The Spirit of God was really on them. I felt it. I was convinced that those people love God. If 1Cor12:3 is correct then these people where definitely of God. The language they were speaking I didn't understand, but I knew without a shadow of a doubt they loved Jesus Christ.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Understandable, but what if Pentecostals are not wrong? The reason I say this is because I saw a man and woman come to our church speaking in tongues. They prayed over the mother of our church and she was healed to the point where she leaped really high. They were earnestly praying in the name of Jesus. The Spirit of God was really on them. I felt it. I was convinced that those people love God. If 1Cor12:3 is correct then these people where definitely of God. The language they were speaking I didn't understand, but I knew without a shadow of a doubt they loved Jesus Christ.

No one is saying anything about the devotion or personal piety of folks like that. However, that does not show that is the proper and Biblical understanding of praying in tongues.
 
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Love Jonezing

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No one is saying anything about the devotion or personal piety of folks like that. However, that does not show that is the proper and Biblical understanding of praying in tongues.
That's where I get lost. If it's not biblical than what happened?
 
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Shieldmaiden4Christ

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That's where I get lost. If it's not biblical than what happened?

The epileptic ululations that go on in in some Pentecostal churches are not comparable to speaking in tongues as presented in the Bible. However, that doesn't exclude someone who participates in these things from having personal piety.
 
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buzuxi02

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You know, you make perfect sense, but I see it differently specifically because of Acts. Take Cornelius for instance, why would he speak with tongues when it was just Peter and a few others in the room? See the confusion I have with this? The men that came to Peter spoke Peter's language and Cornelius spoke Peters language. See the dilemma? Then Act 10:46 says, "For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God". Why didn't the author feel the need to mention the spoken language like he did in Act 2?

Cornelius native language was Latin while Peter's native language was aramaic, unless Peter was utilyzing his gift of tongues or had a translator its unlikely he knew much Latin, we know that Peter was unlearned(see acts 4.13) . The 'entourage' that accompanied Peter were most likely aramaic speakers and greek speakers only (see acts 10.45), regardless the newly-illumined would have spoken whatever languages the judeo-christian group spoke and whomever else was present.
 
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buzuxi02

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That's where I get lost. If it's not biblical than what happened?
In the ancient church till today there was a gift of the Spirit of prayer. Today its refered to as prayer of the heart sometimes as contemplative prayer. Its unceasing prayer and it is what Paul is speaking when he refers to praying with his spirit (v 15).
John Chrysostom in 390 AD a famous preacher from Antioch and native speaker of koine greek explains this practise as it occured a few generations earlier and was still remembered by the Church:

For if I pray in a tongue, says he, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. Do you see how by degrees bringing his argument to a point, he signifies that not to others only is such a thing useless, but also to himself; if at least his understanding is unfruitful?
For if a man should speak only in the Persian, or any other foreign tongue, and not understand what he says, then of course to himself also will he be thenceforth a barbarian, not to another only, from not knowing the meaning of the sound. For there were of old many who had also a
gift of prayer, together with a tongue; and they prayed, and the tongue spoke, praying either in the Persian or Latin language , but their understanding knew not what was spoken. Wherefore also he said, If I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, i.e., the gift which is given me and which moves my tongue, but my understanding is unfruitful."(homily 35 on 1 Corinthians)

As you can see these people spoke authentic languages. John Chrysostom goes on to explain 1Cor 14.16 and explains what is meant by the room of the 'unlearned'. Furthermore John Chrysostom explains that Paul used a literary technique where he downplays the gift of tongues but at the same time elevates it (he demostrates this throughout his commentary on chapter 14):

...Now by the unlearned he means the layman, and signifies that he also suffers no little loss when he is unable to say the Amen. And what he says is this: if you shall bless in a barbarian tongue, not knowing what you say, nor able to interpret, the layman cannot respond the Amen. For not hearing the words, 'forever and ever,' which are at the end , he does not say the Amen. Then again, comforting them concerning this, that they might not seem to hold the gift too cheap; the same kind of remark as he made above, that he speaks "mysteries", and "speaks unto God", and edifies himself, and prays with the spirit, intending no little comfort from these things, this also he utters here, saying, for thou indeed givest thanks well, since you speak being moved by the Spirit: but the other hearing nothing nor knowing what is said, stands there, receiving no great advantage by it.

Most Laymen were common people 'unlearned' so they could not understand the authentic language without an interpreter, they were untrained in multiple languages. If this was ecstatic utterance it would be irrelelvant whether the room was full of 'unlearned' people as whatever was being spoken would never have been understood even by one who knew 10 languages. Likewise it would be irrelevant to know when to say AMEN as ecstatic utterance would not be offering a doxology.
 
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Love Jonezing

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The epileptic ululations that go on in in some Pentecostal churches are not comparable to speaking in tongues as presented in the Bible. However, that doesn't exclude someone who participates in these things from having personal piety.
I guess having epilipytic fits and loving God goes hand in hand because I have seen it a few times, in all types of churches, from baptist to Methodist to Episcopal and others. I think sometimes we speak for God because we don't understand. Christ was even accused by the religious leaders in His day of casting out devils by the power of beelzebub. Well, the Lord is correct in saying, "It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household"?
 
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Love Jonezing

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In the ancient church till today there was a gift of the Spirit of prayer. Today its refered to as prayer of the heart sometimes as contemplative prayer. Its unceasing prayer and it is what Paul is speaking when he refers to praying with his spirit (v 15).
John Chrysostom in 390 AD a famous preacher from Antioch and native speaker of koine greek explains this practise as it occured a few generations earlier and was still remembered by the Church:

For if I pray in a tongue, says he, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. Do you see how by degrees bringing his argument to a point, he signifies that not to others only is such a thing useless, but also to himself; if at least his understanding is unfruitful?
For if a man should speak only in the Persian, or any other foreign tongue, and not understand what he says, then of course to himself also will he be thenceforth a barbarian, not to another only, from not knowing the meaning of the sound. For there were of old many who had also a
gift of prayer, together with a tongue; and they prayed, and the tongue spoke, praying either in the Persian or Latin language , but their understanding knew not what was spoken. Wherefore also he said, If I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, i.e., the gift which is given me and which moves my tongue, but my understanding is unfruitful."(homily 35 on 1 Corinthians)

As you can see these people spoke authentic languages. John Chrysostom goes on to explain 1Cor 14.16 and explains what is meant by the room of the 'unlearned'. Furthermore John Chrysostom explains that Paul used a literary technique where he downplays the gift of tongues but at the same time elevates it (he demostrates this throughout his commentary on chapter 14):

...Now by the unlearned he means the layman, and signifies that he also suffers no little loss when he is unable to say the Amen. And what he says is this: if you shall bless in a barbarian tongue, not knowing what you say, nor able to interpret, the layman cannot respond the Amen. For not hearing the words, 'forever and ever,' which are at the end , he does not say the Amen. Then again, comforting them concerning this, that they might not seem to hold the gift too cheap; the same kind of remark as he made above, that he speaks "mysteries", and "speaks unto God", and edifies himself, and prays with the spirit, intending no little comfort from these things, this also he utters here, saying, for thou indeed givest thanks well, since you speak being moved by the Spirit: but the other hearing nothing nor knowing what is said, stands there, receiving no great advantage by it.

Most Laymen were common people 'unlearned' so they could not understand the authentic language without an interpreter, they were untrained in multiple languages. If this was ecstatic utterance it would be irrelelvant whether the room was full of 'unlearned' people as whatever was being spoken would never have been understood even by one who knew 10 languages. Likewise it would be irrelevant to know when to say AMEN as ecstatic utterance would not be offering a doxology.
Wherefore also he said, If I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, i.e., the gift which is given me and which moves my tongue, but my understanding is unfruitful."(homily 35 on 1 Corinthians)
I don't dispute that the gift of tongues apply to speaking languages. I just don't believe it is limited to just speaking languages common to man. For it says with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
 
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Shieldmaiden4Christ

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I guess having epilipytic fits and loving God goes hand in hand because I have seen it a few times, in all types of churches, from baptist to Methodist to Episcopal and others. I think sometimes we speak for God because we don't understand.

I haven't seen it, and if I did, I'd assume it was demonic rather than of God. No basis for it in Scripture or in the early Church writings.
 
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Love Jonezing

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I haven't seen it, and if I did, I'd assume it was demonic rather than of God. No basis for it in Scripture or in the early Church writings.
Yeah, some do think it is demonic, but they thought it was demonic in Christ day too. I guess we can count it all joy.
 
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Shieldmaiden4Christ

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Yeah, some do think it is demonic, but they thought it was demonic in Christ day too. I guess we can count it all joy.

As far as I've seen, there's no precedence in the entirety of Christian history for viewing the "tongues" in the Bible as the crazy (bordering on demonic) stuff that goes on in a Pentecostal setting.
 
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buzuxi02

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Its true that what goes on in the charismatic circles is also found in the voodoo religion.
But even those first pentecostals thought they were truly speaking authentic rational languages for a number of years before they figured it out. They even had those with the percieved gift of interpretation catalog these languages. They believed it was chinese and african dialects and a few others till 1909 or so.
 
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ArmyMatt

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That's where I get lost. If it's not biblical than what happened?

I don't know what happened, aside that there is no evidence from history or Scripture that supports the Pentecostal view of tongues
 
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Love Jonezing

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Its true that what goes on in the charismatic circles is also found in the voodoo religion.
But even those first pentecostals thought they were truly speaking authentic rational languages for a number of years before they figured it out. They even had those with the percieved gift of interpretation catalog these languages. They believed it was chinese and african dialects and a few others till 1909 or so.
I always wondered why people compare Pentecostals worshiping God to chicken bones and witchcraft. Please tell me where you read this. It must be because Pentecostal churches are filled with black people, that is the only thing I can think of. That sounds very stereotypical, even racist. I was talking to a guy a few weeks back about how I admired Martin Luther King Jr and the guy response was that MLK was a headbanging voodoo worshiper. He just dismissed all of his works because the color of his skin. Not saying anything about you, but I am really amazed at the level of racial ignorance that comes across this Christian forum. You know, after talking to some people with these racially energized views, I really wonder if we are living in the year 2015. Sometimes I feel like my Christian brethren never left the 1800s. Who could you blame for such a level of ignorance in a time where there is so much access to knowledge?
 
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ArmyMatt

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I always wondered why people compare Pentecostals worshiping God to chicken bones and witchcraft. Please tell me where you read this. It must be because Pentecostal churches are filled with black people, that is the only thing I can think of. That sounds very stereotypical, even racist. I was talking to a guy a few weeks back about how I admired Martin Luther King Jr and the guy response was that MLK was a headbanging voodoo worshiper. He just dismissed all of his works because the color of his skin. Not saying anything about you, but I am really amazed at the level of racial ignorance that comes across this Christian forum. You know, after talking to some people with these racially energized views, I really wonder if we are living in the year 2015. Sometimes I feel like my Christian brethren never left the 1800s. Who could you blame for such a level of ignorance in a time where there is so much access to knowledge?

it's because a lot of the Pentecostal view of spirituality such as being slain in the spirit, their view of tongues, holy laughter, spiritual drunkenness, faith healing, etc are much more akin in practice to paganism than to actual ancient Christian spirituality.

and it has nothing to do with anyone's skin color, I don't know why that was brought up.
 
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