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Speaking in Tongues - Are we all wrong?

Saint Steven

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The gift of healing was the instantaneous and complete healing of a disability simply by the command or touch of a gifted individual, such as the disciples demonstrated in the New Testament. They didn't have to pray for healing. They could heal people instantly because they had been given that supernatural ability.

There is still healing today but it is the result of prayer (James 5:14-16), not the touch of someone with the gift of healing. Praying for healing is not the gift of healing. If you have to pray for healing it proves you do not have the gift of healing.

Did Kathryn Kulman claim to have the gift of healing? Did she heal people just at her command or touch? Were they healing genuine miracles? I'd be interested in seeing the statements by the medical experts. Can you post a link to them. Or that more hearsay?

Even if they were genuine, did other people not pray for those people who were ill? If they did then the healing may have been the result of those prayers, rather than KK having the gift of healing.

Even though God can heal today 90% of healings today are bogus. They are either fakes, such as the common leg-lengthening trick, or not miracles at all. Supposed healings that take days or months to occur are not a miracles. Nor are slight improvements in a persons condition that can be accounted for by the natural healing process. Nor are improvements brought about by psychosomatic effects.
Honestly, who are you to put the Holy Spirit on a leash? Or to define the proper use of the gifts when you deny their existence today. Jesus used the ministry of the laying on of hands. Are you a Christ follower?

Mark 6:5
He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them.

Luke 4:40
At sunset, the people brought to Jesus all who had various kinds of sickness, and laying his hands on each one, he healed them.
 
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Saint Steven

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Are we in the last days? Has the Lord called you?

Acts 2:17-18, 39
“‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
39 The promise is for you and your children
and for all who are far off—for all whom
the Lord our God will call.”
 
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swordsman1

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Honestly, who are you to put the Holy Spirit on a leash? Or to define the proper use of the gifts when you deny their existence today. Jesus used the ministry of the laying on of hands. Are you a Christ follower?

Mark 6:5
He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them.

Luke 4:40
At sunset, the people brought to Jesus all who had various kinds of sickness, and laying his hands on each one, he healed them.

I do not put the Holy Spirit on a leash, nobody can do that. He will do as he pleases. But what people claim as gifts are clearly not the gifts of the New Testament. What is offensive to the Spirit is when people attribute things to Him that are clearly not of Him.
 
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Saint Steven

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I do not put the Holy Spirit on a leash, nobody can do that. He will do as he pleases. But what people claim as gifts are clearly not the gifts of the New Testament. What is offensive to the Spirit is when people attribute things to Him that are clearly not of Him.
How do you know that you are not doing that?
Attributing things to Him that are clearly not of Him.
 
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swordsman1

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Are we in the last days? Has the Lord called you?

Acts 2:17-18, 39
“‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
39 The promise is for you and your children
and for all who are far off—for all whom
the Lord our God will call.”

That verse does not say the gift of prophesy would continue throughout all of the last days. That part of Joel's prophecy was fulfilled at the beginning of the last days. Just as the sun turning to darkness and the moon to blood will be fulfilled at the end of the last days.

The promise of v39 is referring to the promise of the Holy Spirit (see v33), not the contents of Joel's prophecy.

And again, what people call prophecy today does not match the biblical definition of prophecy. Today's prophecies are nothing more than fuzzy feelings popping into people's heads which are then presumptuously declared to be a 'word from the Lord' yet they are regularly proved to be false. Whereas in scripture prophecy is described God actually speaking precise words to the prophet who could then infallibly say "Thus says the Lord...".
 
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Saint Steven

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That verse does not say the gift of prophesy would continue throughout all of the last days. That part of Joel's prophecy was fulfilled at the beginning of the last days. Just as the sun turning to darkness and the moon to blood will be fulfilled at the end of the last days.

The promise of v39 is referring to the promise of the Holy Spirit (see v33), not the contents of Joel's prophecy.

And again, what people call prophecy today does not match the biblical definition of prophecy. Today's prophecies are nothing more than fuzzy feelings popping into people's heads which are then presumptuously declared to be a 'word from the Lord' yet they are regularly proved to be false. Whereas in scripture prophecy is described God actually speaking precise words to the prophet who could then infallibly say "Thus says the Lord...".
There you go again putting the Holy Spirit on a leash.

The whole chapter is basically an answer to what happened in the outpouring. The promise of the Holy Spirit comes with the manifestations. To all whom the Lord will call.
 
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swordsman1

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The whole chapter is basically an answer to what happened in the outpouring.

Oh so the sun turned to darkness and the moon to blood on the day of Pentecost? And continued like that throughout all the church age?

The promise of the Holy Spirit comes with the manifestations. To all whom the Lord will call.

So if you don't exhibit a 'manifestation' such as tongues, you don't have the Holy Spirit?
 
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Saint Steven

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Oh so the sun turned to darkness and the moon to blood on the day of Pentecost? And continued like that throughout all the church age?



So if you don't exhibit a 'manifestation' such as tongues, you don't have the Holy Spirit?
So doctrinally you are Cessationist? (we're done)
 
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Did Kathryn Kulman claim to have the gift of healing? Did she heal people just at her command or touch? Were they healing genuine miracles? I'd be interested in seeing the statements by the medical experts. Can you post a link to them. Or that more hearsay?
She never claimed that she had the gift of healing. She never "touched" anyone for healing. People were spontaneously healed while she preached the gospel and glorified Jesus. Some were healed while they were travelling to her meetings.

There are two or three books that describe her ministry and contains testimony of people who were instantly healed of incurable medical conditions. Take the time to read them and make your own evaluation whether the testimonies are truth or hearsay. As far as providing a link for you, you can access Google as well as I can. :)

Roberts Liardon has compile a Youtube series on "God's Generals" and there is one that describes Kathryn Khulman's ministry. As a small boy, he attended her meetings and actually met her. You may not agree with other aspects of his ministry, but you can hear and see his description of her ministry.

I agree that there are many who claim to have the gift of healing, but we don't see many healed under their ministry. This was one of the disappointments when I was involved in the Charismatic church and went to all the healing meetings held in my city during the 1970s. I saw the same people go up every time for healing meeting after meeting, but did not seem to get healed. Right through the 1980s and 90s after i left the Charismatic church I became skeptical about healing and put it on the back burner. Then around 2010 I decided to research it by going to my favourite Christian second hand bookshop and buying up every book I could on the subject. I read all the 1970, 80s and 90s authors - the good, bad and the ugly. I filled up a bookcase with the books. I also downloaded the whole DVD set of John Wimber's 1985 healing conference, plus a three DVD set of Bill Johnson's healing conference. I also viewed A A Allen, Jack Coe, and Oral Roberts. I purchased and read the Complete Works of Smith Wigglesworth, and John G Lake; also Curry Blake's Healing Technicians manual, plus "Healing is the Children's Bread" by Simon Wilson (a New Zealander) and Cornel Marais (Canadian). I went to a healing meeting in Auckland conducted by Bill Subritzky, and saw a couple of remarkable healings. I purchased his DVD of 130 testimonies of New Zealanders being healed of all different types of medical conditions (none of them could ever be described as psychosomatic). In a equipping meeting, I prayed for a wife who had a medical condition preventing her from having children. It was incurable. All I said was, "Jesus heals you." Her husband reported to me six weeks later that she was six weeks pregnant and that she had conceived that night after they got home from the meeting. I prayed for my supervisor at work who had arthritis in her knee, diagnosed by her doctor. All I did was to tell that arthritis to go, and a number of weeks later her doctor reported that there was no arthritis there any longer and that really puzzled him because he knew it was there when she was xrayed. As part of a healing teaching conference I took in a provincial church, using Simon Wilson's manual, a lady was prayed for who had chronic back pain. The next day the pastor emailed me to say that the pain had entirely disappeared and she had the best night's sleep for a very long time.

I don't claim to have the gift of healing at all. I told the people in that conference that I couldn't heal a flea with a headache, and if anyone got healed it was Jesus who did it.

The thing that Kathryn Khulman struggled over, was not the ones who got up out of their wheelchairs and walked, but those who did not and left not healed. She had no answer for that, because she did not claim 100% success, and concluded that Jesus healed some and not others, even though she may have wished that every sick person who attended her meetings got healed.
 
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As promised I have now produced a compendium of 28 commentaries on Acts 2:4-13. They all take the view that the disciples spoke in foreign languages at Pentecost. I couldn't find a single respected commentator who took the view that it was a miracle of hearing in the crowd. I have attached a pdf to this post that includes excerpts from the following authors:

Charles C. Ryrie, Professor of systematic theology at Dallas Theological Seminar
Ben Witherington, Professor of New Testament Interpretation at Asbury Theological Seminary
C K Barrett, Professor of Divinity at the University of Durham
Jack Cottrell, professor of theology at Cincinnati Christian University
Darrell L. Bock, Professor of New Testament studies at Dallas Theological Seminary
R. C. H. Lenski, professor of theology at Capital University
Eckhard J. Schnabel, Professor of New Testament at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary
Dennis Gaertner, professor of New Testament at Johnson Bible College
John B. Polhill, professor of New Testament at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
I. Howard Marshall, Professor Emeritus of New Testament Exegesis at the University of Aberdeen
F. Scott Spencer, Professor of New Testament at Baptist Theological Seminary
Paul W. Walaskay, Professor of Biblical Studies at Union Theological Seminary
Kenneth O. Gangel, Professor of Christian Education Dallas Theological Seminary
Mark J. Cartledge, Professor of Practical Theology at Regent University
Craig Keener, professor of New Testament at Asbury Theological Seminary
Gerhard Hasel, Professor of Biblical Theology at Andrews University
F F Bruce, Professor of Biblical Criticism and Exegesis at the University of Manchester
Mal Couch, Professor of Theology & Languages Tyndale Theological Seminary
Robert Thomas, Professor of New Testament at The Master's Seminary
Max Turner, Professor of New Testament at the London School of Theology
Warren W. Wiersbe, Professor of Preaching at Grand Rapids Baptist Seminary
D A Carson, professor of New Testament at Trinity Evangelical Divinity
Wayne Grudem, Professor of Theology and Biblical Studies at Phoenix Seminary
Gotthard Victor Lechler, professor of historical theology at the University of Leipzig
E. J. Schnabel, Professor of New Testament at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary
Derek Thomas, Professor of Systematic and Pastoral Theology at Reformed Theological Seminary
H A Ironside, theologian and author of over 55 commentaries and books
John Stott, theologian and author of over 38 commentaries and books
King Ahab had 400 prophets to advise him concerning his upcoming battle with the Philistines. They all predicted success. There was only one, Micaiah, who predicted that Ahab was going to die in the battle. :)

I'm not saying that these good men that you quoted are prophets of Baal, but it goes to show that the majority opinion is not always right.
 
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swordsman1

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buying up every book I could on the subject.....I filled up a bookcase with the books......I also downloaded the whole DVD set.......plus a three DVD set of Bill Johnson's healing conference......I purchased and read.......I purchased his DVD of 130 testimonies

Seems they did well out of you. There's usually a ulterior motive in peddling these 'stories'.
 
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Seems they did well out of you. There's usually a ulterior motive in peddling these 'stories'.
The point is that I did comprehensive research to determine what was true and what was false. I wrote my research paper (50 pages) for my MDiv on "Healing Then and Now" where I detailed the results of my research. I got a 95% pass mark for it, and this was from a non-Charismatic Bible College.

I examined Healing in Scripture, Church History, and modern practice. With modern practice did a critique of the principal healing ministries, examining the pros and cons of them. The dissertation was accepted as an academic mastorate level thesis, and so it was not lightweight in any way. If my research was in the nature of "peddling stories", then it would not have been accepted as a fully acceptable academic paper.
 
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swordsman1

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That's just nasty and uncalled for.

Sure I will denounce those charlatans whose aim is to make money out of unsuspecting Christians. Have you seen Christian TV recently? They are always wowing you with a taster, and if you want more, or want to know the secret you have to make a 'seed offering' to get the book or DVD.
 
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Saint Steven

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Sure I will denounce those charlatans whose aim is to make money out of unsuspecting Christians. Have you seen Christian TV recently? They are always wowing you with a taster, and if you want more, or want to know the secret you have to make a 'seed offering' to get the book or DVD.
Without proof it is bearing false witness.
 
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Saint Steven

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Just turn on your TV and go to the religious channels if you want proof.
Having a ministry costs money. Why would you criticize these folks for seeking support? Do you not support any ministries?
 
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Saint Steven

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Yeah, they need their mansions and private jets.
So you are too cheap to support any ministries, but you love to criticize others and make false accusations?
 
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