Speaking in Tongues a Cessationists’ View

[Major1]

So, we are back to no scripture to support the continuationist POV.

Correctly said.

Something that I learned a long time ago was recently made public from a University study in Iowa.

A new study from the University of Iowa finds that once people reach a conclusion, they aren't likely to change their minds, even when new information shows their initial belief is likely wrong even when clinging to that belief costs real money.

 

[Anto9us]

https://www.barna.com/research/is-american-christianity-turning-charismatic/

Is American Christianity Turning Charismatic?
Research Releases in Leaders & Pastors • January 7, 2008
Pentecostal or charismatic Christianity is viewed by some Americans as an emotional, theologically suspect form of the Christian faith. It is widely thought to be a very vocal and visible, but numerically small slice of the grand religious pie in the United States. Two new surveys from The Barna Group, however, indicate that things are changing dramatically in the religious landscape. Those surveys – one among a national sample of adults and the other among a national sample of Protestant pastors – show that the number of churches and adherents to Pentecostal perspectives and practices has grown significantly in the past two decades.

Growing Numbers of People

A decade ago, three out of ten adults claimed to be charismatic or Pentecostal Christians. Today, 36% of Americans accept that designation. That corresponds to approximately 80 million adults. (For the Barna survey, this included people who said they were a charismatic or Pentecostal Christian, that they had been “filled with the Holy Spirit” and who said they believe that “the charismatic gifts, such as tongues and healing, are still valid and active today.”)

Charismatics are found throughout the fabric of American Christianity. Although just 8% of the population is evangelical, half of evangelical adults (49%) fit the charismatic definition. A slight majority of all born again Christians (51%) is charismatic. Nearly half of all adults who attend a Protestant church (46%) are charismatic.

Charismatic Churches

One out of every four Protestant churches in the United States (23%) is a charismatic congregation. While some of the most common charismatic denominations are well-known – such as the Assemblies of God, Foursquare or Churches of God in Christ – non-denominational churches emerged as one of the most common charismatic “denominations.” Four out of every ten non-denominational churches are charismatic.

 

[Major1]

I don't care what the Cessationist Splainaway of Acts 2:39 is.

The promise of the Holy Spirit was cited in the context of Pentecost and everything that was going on, which Peter described as fulfillment of Joel's prophecy -- and the recipients include all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

You guys MAKE ME SICK trying to tell Dennis his wife's experience is not valid.

Read comment #716 as @Albion is absolutely correct...…..AGAIN!

Acts 2:39...…..
"For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”

I do not know who said what about another person but I do know that Acts 2:39 is not even a verse about Cessationalism to be explained away or accepted.

CONTEXT! Look at the CONTEXT in verse 38 & 40 which say...….
REPENT AND BE BAPTIZED EVERY ONE OF YOU IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST.

It must be understood that the passage was originally stated as a message to Israel concerning their national crime of murdering their Messiah.

It is unwise to link "baptism" with the remission of sins for nowhere in the Scriptures does it teach that salvation is dependent on baptism.

Evangelism is what is in view here.

 

[DennisTate]

You need scripture to verify her experience.

Joel 2:28

"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit."

 

[Major1]

Joel 2:28

"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit."

Joel 2:2 was NOT fulfilled in Acts 2.

The moon did not turn to blood.
The sun was not turned to darkness.
There was no wonders in heaven.
There was no signs in the earth beneath.
There was no vapor.
There was no smoke.

Joel will be fulfilled in the Day of the Lord which will be at the end of the Great Tribulation was it was NOT done in Acts 2.

 

[DennisTate]

Joel 2:2 was NOT fulfilled in Acts 2.

The moon did not turn to blood.
The sun was not turned to darkness.
There was no wonders in heaven.
There was no signs in the earth beneath.
There was no vapor.
There was no smoke.

Joel will be fulfilled in the Day of the Lord which will be at the end of the Great Tribulation was it was NOT done in Acts 2.

I have read some pretty interesting articles on Blood Moons over these past couple of years..... and......
I have a theory on how this scripture is being fulfilled right now!


Jeremiah 23:20 "The anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly."


The being of light of NDE fame, G-d or Satan?

 

[Major1]

The question remains. Where do we draw the line on apostles?

As soon as the apostle Paul was added, the floodgates were opened. There is no end to apostleship now. Therefore the charismatic gifts are still being distributed to this day. Because apostleship has continued unstopped.

The line as you call it must be and can only be the qualifications which are listed in the Bible for an apostle as they are...……
A witness of Jesus Christ, (Jn 15:27).
Chosen personally by Christ(Lk 6:13),.
A Personal Student of Christ(Lk. 6:13).

It is also duly noted as a matter of fact that all of Jesus’ apostles were Jews and men. No woman or Gentile was ever considered for an apostleship. The apostles were a special group of carefully selected messengers. Only those who meet the qualifications given in the New Testament can rightly serve as apostles of Christ. No one today meets those qualifications. No not one! Therefore, let us guard against those whom Paul warns are “false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ” (2 Cor. 11:13).

 

[Major1]

I have read some pretty interesting articles on Blood Moons over these past couple of years..... and......
I have a theory on how this scripture is being fulfilled right now!


Jeremiah 23:20 "The anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly."


The being of light of NDE fame, G-d or Satan?

Dennis, some really good men (John Hagee for one) have been talking about Blood Moons recently as a precursor to the Day of the Lord.

I for one am not buying this as there have been numerous times in our past when “blood red” moons have appeared with eclipses. The phenomenon is well known to astronomers and for that matter astrologers. Eclipses happen on a well established schedule work out by astronomers millennia ago. They surprise no one who is paying attention to the signs or has a almanac.

The “I feel, I think, I believe, or the Spirit told me” form of hermeneutics that is so popular in the post modern church, is not based in sound interpretation. There is a need to establish a reasonable logical way of looking at these passages. All interpretation should be able to be tested to standard hermeneutics, without lauding or questioning someone’s spiritual state. All things are confirmed by two or more witnesses, including scriptural interpretation.

One of the oldest rules of hermeneutics is: “The Bible is its own best commentary.” That is the most accurate way to learn how to interpret prophecy. Our first search is to look at prophecies that have already been fulfilled. There are reoccurring themes and vocabulary, and turns of phrases and language patterns that can be compared or matched to other references of the same events and actual history.

 

[Dave L]

Joel 2:28

"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit."

This happened in 33 AD. Fulfilled.....

 

[DennisTate]

This happened in 33 AD. Fulfilled.....

Fulfilled is one word.......
finished and ended..... are two completely different words.

Our own fears..... of speaking in tongues..... .or being given a visionary dream of heaven that can change our lives........ could be one of the reasons why we might wish to think that there is no need for you or I to have spiritual gifts.

I was a Christian for close to thirty years before I met my wife who proved to me that the gifts were still available.......... and that I could have them.......

Here is a quotation from a visionary dream of heaven that could scare many of us..... away from wanting to be given visionary dreams of heaven.... or of the armies of hell:

http://www.heavennet.net/visions/the-hordes-of-hell-are-marching.htm

Grace and Truth

I turned away from the door and retreated fast. There was a beautiful red stone nearby, which I almost lunged at to lay my hands on it. Immediately I was in the Garden of Gethsemane beholding the Lord in prayer. The agony I beheld was even more terrible than the door I had just seen. Shocked, I jerked my hand away from the stone and fell to the floor in exhaustion. I badly wanted to return to the blue or green stones, but I had to regather my energy and sense of direction. The angels were quickly all around me serving me. I was given a drink that began to revive me. Soon I was feeling well enough to stand and begin walking back to the other stones. However, the recurring vision of the Lord praying compelled me to stop.

"What was that back there?" I asked.

"When you touch the stones we are able to see a little of what you see, and feel a little of what you feel," said the angel. "We know that all of these stones are great treasures, and all of the revelations they contain are priceless. We beheld for a moment the agony of the Lord before His crucifixion, and we felt briefly what He felt that terrible night. It is hard for us to understand how are God could ever suffer like that. It makes us appreciate much more what an honor it is to serve you whom He did it for."

.....

The Truth of Grace

The time that I spent at the red stone was the most painful that I have ever experienced. Many times I simply could not take any more but had to withdraw my hand. Several times I went back to the blue or green stones to rejuvenate my soul before I returned. I was extremely hard to return to the red stone each time, but my love and appreciation for the Lord was growing through this more than anything I had ever learned or experienced.

Finally, when the presence of the Father departed from Jesus on the cross, I could not stand it anymore. I quit. I could tell that the angels, who were also experiencing what I was, were in full agreement. The willpower to touch the stone again simply was not in my anymore. I did not even feel like going back to the blue stone. I just laid on the floor weeping over what the Lord had gone through. I also wept because I knew that I had deserted Him just like His disciples. I failed Him when He needed me the most, just like they did.

After what seemed like several days, I opened my eyes. Another eagle was standing beside me. In front of him were three stones, one blue, one green, and one red. "Eat them," he said. When I did, my whole being was renewed, and both a great joy and great soberness flooded my soul.

When I stood up, I caught sight of the same three stones set into the handle of my sword, and then on each of my shoulders. "These are now yours forever," the eagle said. "They cannot be taken from you, and you cannot lose them."

"But I did not finish this last one," I protested.

"Christ alone will ever finish that test," he replied. "You have done well, but you must no on now."

I think that we tend to be fearful of going to deeper and deeper levels of conversion.... frankly.... I still have never spoken in tongues.... or had a major prophetic dream like Pastor Rick was given.

Christian near death experiencer Kevin Zedai.... .on a Sid Roth episode... .said that after his NDE he felt that his previous level of conversion.......... was only a tiny fraction in comparison to how he felt after his near death experience that was so much like II Corinthians 12:2-4.

 

[Dave L]

Fulfilled is one word.......
finished and ended..... are two completely different words.

Our own fears..... of speaking in tongues..... .or being given a visionary dream of heaven that can change our lives........ could be one of the reasons why we might wish to think that there is no need for you or I to have spiritual gifts.

I was a Christian for close to thirty years before I met my wife who proved to me that the gifts were still available.......... and that I could have them.......

Here is a quotation from a visionary dream of heaven that could scare many of us..... away from wanting to be given visionary dreams of heaven.... or of the armies of hell:

http://www.heavennet.net/visions/the-hordes-of-hell-are-marching.htm

We need to support our conclusions with scripture. If we cannot do that, our conclusions are false.

 

[DennisTate]

We need to support our conclusions with scripture. If we cannot do that, our conclusions are false.

1Thessalonians 5:20 "Despise not prophesyings."

Matthew 11:15 "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."

Mathew 2:19 "But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt,"

Joseph... the husband of Mary heard from God in a dream......... thirty years or so before the outpouring of Acts chapter 2...... .and you seem determined to believe that such gifts are unavailable to us now???????????

But again I repeat.... like you.... I don't yet really have these gifts either... .but I am convinced that they are available.......

 

[DennisTate]

We need to support our conclusions with scripture. If we cannot do that, our conclusions are false.

For the record.... .i do believe that the Holy Spirit is driving you to at least be asking these questions...... that is an important first step....... not only for you and I..... but for everybody who reads this discussion!

And.... for everybody who could be affected by positive changes in our lives as we come to a deeper understanding of the truth of this question...... and the true answer.

 

[Dave L]

1Thessalonians 5:20 "Despise not prophesyings."

Matthew 11:15 "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."

Mathew 2:19 "But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt,"

Joseph... the husband of Mary heard from God in a dream......... thirty years or so before the outpouring of Acts chapter 2...... .and you seem determined to believe that such gifts are unavailable to us now???????????

But again I repeat.... like you.... I don't yet really have these gifts either... .but I am convinced that they are available.......

This does not change the fact that the charismatic gifts came only through the Apostles' hands after the two outpourings. And when the Apostles died, those gifts ceased.

 

[DennisTate]

This does not change the fact that the charismatic gifts came only through the Apostles' hands after the two outpourings. And when the Apostles died, those gifts ceased.

Actually....... as soon as some groups of Christians rediscovered some of the gifts...... .they were often martyred....... .by other Christians who were in the mentality of the Scribes and Pharisees..... who wanted to kill Lazarus..........
because his testimony was simply too powerful.... and was convincing too many people.

John 12:10 "But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death;"

 

[Dave L]

Actually....... as soon as some groups of Christians rediscovered some of the gifts...... .they were often martyred....... .by other Christians who were in the mentality of the Scribes and Pharisees..... who wanted to kill Lazarus..........
because his testimony was simply too powerful.... and was convincing too many people.

John 12:10 "But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death;"

If the gifts needed rediscovery, it means they are now false. Because God would not remove them if they were necessary.

 

[DennisTate]

If the gifts needed rediscovery, it means they are now false. Because God would not remove them if they were necessary.

Actually...... what was removed was The Bible itself.........
it was illegal for ordinary people to own Bibles until about four or five centuries or so ago.

As soon as ordinary people could own Bibles again.... .they noticed that the seventy who were sent out had power over devils and sicknesses.........
but technically.... .they were not even fully converted until years later at Pentecost..... in Acts 2.

So...... if ordinary ..... non-professional theologians like the seventy who were sent out two by two by two by two...... could kick out demons.....and heal all manner of disease...........
then reading about this...... transformed many lives beginning especially..... four or five centuries ago with the widespread availability of the Bible again.


John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and theyare life."

Less..... (or nearly zero words of Messiah Yeshua - Jesus)..... = less Holy Spirit..... = less Life and less spiritual power.

 

[DennisTate]

If the gifts needed rediscovery, it means they are now false. Because God would not remove them if they were necessary.

John 9:4 "As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work."

For good reason.... the ten or so centuries from 500 to 1500 or so are called the Dark Ages......... very, very few people had the Bible during those years........ .and thus...... very, very few people could work effectively......

There was always a remnant... .and they risked their lives to own portions of the Bible.....

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

Understanding is the basis of edification. Paul says those who spoke in tongues edified themselves. They understood what they were saying.

Dave,

I find it odd that you would quote from Paul, when Paul clearly disagrees with you: two verses earlier he says: "One who speaks in tongues speaks not to men, but to God... no one understands him..."

And yet in that not understanding somehow the tongues speaker is edified. Paul clearly does not use the word as requiring understanding. So your desire that tongues requires understanding does not agree with Paul.

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

However...

Being able to make sounds and convince oneself that it is a supernatural gift is not, after all, proof of anything.

Neither is listening to someone else making sounds and convincing oneself that it is not a supernatural gift.

Proof is very difficult, particularly when it comes to the spiritual. If a person's life has been transformed by the Holy Spirit, then it will manifest itself how the Holy Spirit wills. Not how someone else wants it to.