Speaking in Tongues a Cessationists’ View

[Anto9us]

Even voodoo practitioners do this.

VOO-DOO!!! Inviting demons into our lives!! Dopaminergic genetic activity gone wild! Pleasure-seeking and stress reduction! "They're doing it to get a high!"

Bring it on, Cessationists -- BRING IT ON!!

The more you say, the sillier you sound.

 

[swordsman1]

As far as the idea that Cessationists claim that 'the Perfect' (complete or mature if you will) represents the completion and distribution of the New Testament -- what scripture support does THAT have?

Where does it say that the completed New Testament is what is being talked about - what chapter and verse says the finished New Testament is when 'through a glass darkly' changes to 'face to face' and partial knowledge becomes full knowledge?

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...sationists’-view.8075635/page-4#post-73012792

Corinthians does not come right out and say what many non-Cessationists believe - that face to face and full knowledge coming means the state after Christ's return, no, but neither does it in any way infer that "a completed Bible" is what is meant by that either.

So the Cessationists' claim that what is referred to is not the state after Christ's return - well, their claim about what face to face and full knowledge does mean in that passage is in no way supported by the Bible either.

Right, Paul doesn't explicitly tell out what "completeness" is. An in-depth study of 1 Cor 13:8-13 is required to fully interpret it.

We have had completed Bibles for - what - 19 centuries maybe? Do we have full knowledge yet? Don't we still see through a glass darkly compared to the time when "we shall be like Him because we will see Him as He is"?

Yes we do have full knowledge, when we understand that knowledge in the context of this passage is revealed knowledge. And yes in the scriptures we do see "face to face" compared to looking in the "dim mirror" that was prophecy.

But you don't need to be convinced of cessationism to see that today's so called tongues is not the genuine gift. A simple analysis of the biblical description will tell you that.

 

[Paul.]

since Angels do not have voice boxes

What scripture states this? The Bible does not say that angels have voice boxes or that they do not have voice boxes. We cannot claim Biblical truth based on what the Bible does not speak about.

You are now referring to angels who have been sent to Earth as messengers. Of course they have to have assumed human form in order to relate to us,

In Mt 28:1-8 we read about the angel who rolled away the stone from Jesus tomb and spoke to the women who had come to the tomb. The angel did not appear in human form and spoke to the women. Therefore angels do not always assume human form to communicate to humans.

The whole of Revelation is the record of a VISION. It is not meant literally.

Angels are mentioned in Isaish 6:3 as praising God in heaven. The shepherds were witnesses to the angels praising God in Luke 2:8-15. The description of angels praising God is not just found in Revelation.

 

[Dave L]

VOO-DOO!!! Inviting demons into our lives!! Dopaminergic genetic activity gone wild! Pleasure-seeking and stress reduction! "They're doing it to get a high!"

Bring it on, Cessationists -- BRING IT ON!!

The more you say, the sillier you sound.

Just saying, if you cannot support your claims from scripture you run the risk.

 

[Albion]

https://charlesasullivan.com/3662/an-analysis-of-augustine-on-tongues-and-the-donatists/

A bit on Augustine vs the Donatists, who indeed did practice tongues in that day.

That's an interesting piece, but it appears that while tongues are defended by Augustine, it is not ecstatic tongues or the so-called angelic tongues that todays Charismatics promote, but actual languages by which the church spread its message to unconverted peoples of distant lands.

“Whoever has the holy Spirit is in the Church, which is speaking in all the languages. Whoever is outside this Church, does not have the holy Spirit. For that reason indeed the holy Spirit deemed to reveal itself in the languages of all the nations, so the one that perceives to have the holy Spirit itself, that person is sustained in the unity of the Church, which is speaking in all the languages.”5

 

[Dave L]

Oh, ask not for whom the bell tolls -- it tolls for me...

Perhaps the objection is that ALL Cessationists do indeed claim that THE PERFECT means the completion of the New Testament -- I know there are Cessationists who do not claim that; but going back to college days when a Coffeehouse Director shoved his Bible in my face with both hands and and said "THIS!!" (meaning the Perfect had come) -- many Cessationists do indeed claim the finished Bible is what caused Tongues to 'cease'.

Enlighten me on whatever else I may have misrepresented Cessationists as.

Still no scripture to support your views?

 

[swordsman1]

Eph 2:20
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

How in the world does someone get a "temporal nature" of the apostles and prophets from that verse?

Is the foundation of the church still being built? Do we still have apostles today? If apostles ceased after the foundation (and few dispute they did) then so did prophets. And if prophets ceased then so did tongues (1 Cor 13:8).

 

[Albion]

What scripture states this? The Bible does not say that angels have voice boxes or that they do not have voice boxes. .

They are spirits, not humans.

 

[Major1]

JESUS CALLING by Sarah Young and GOD CALLING by the '2 listeners' back in the 30's are both very popular devotional books - I have both of them, but there are caveats concerning them. The THOUGHTS expressed are WONDERFUL in content -- yet the message is that God/Jesus is DICTATING IN THE FIRST PERSON. I am a little uncomfortable with that, if it is said that Jesus is dictating something in the first person, I want to see it in the Bible.

Anything close to automatic writing makes me suspicious.

As far as the idea that Cessationists claim that 'the Perfect' (complete or mature if you will) represents the completion and distribution of the New Testament -- what scripture support does THAT have?

Where does it say that the completed New Testament is what is being talked about - what chapter and verse says the finished New Testament is when 'through a glass darkly' changes to 'face to face' and partial knowledge becomes full knowledge?

Corinthians does not come right out and say what many non-Cessationists believe - that face to face and full knowledge coming means the state after Christ's return, no, but neither does it in any way infer that "a completed Bible" is what is meant by that either.

So the Cessationists' claim that what is referred to is not the state after Christ's return - well, their claim about what face to face and full knowledge does mean in that passage is in no way supported by the Bible either.

We have had completed Bibles for - what - 19 centuries maybe? Do we have full knowledge yet? Don't we still see through a glass darkly compared to the time when "we shall be like Him because we will see Him as He is"?

Another humorous incident is forthcoming about THE CESSATIONIST COFFEEHOUSE back in college days, rather, a coffeehouse where the Director was a staunch cessationist.

1 Corinthians 13:8-13 ......….
"Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me."

2 Corinthians 12.12 Paul says:...……..
'Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.'

Acts 2.43 and 5.12 it is again made clear that all the miracles were performed 'by the hands of the apostles'.

This was exclusively their sign. Also, in Hebrews 2.3-4 the healing gifts are firmly linked to the apostles.
http://www.metropolitantabernacle.o...c-Gifts-have-Ceased-Sword-and-Trowel-Magazine

 

[Anto9us]

Hillsage, when are ya gonna GO DEEP and share this teaching that you hinted at?

Ya waitin on Jennifer to say "no, I didn't cause yer WARNING" ?

Don't worry about them warnings -- I got two active right now -- but it is really unlawful to be uttered about what staff does

I thank my God I have warnings more than ye all

 

[Anto9us]

Transliteration
katargeō
Pronunciation
kä-tär-ge'-ō κατά (G2596) and ἀργέω (G691)
Textus Receptus Occurrences — 27x in 19 unique form(s)
καταργεῖ — 1x
καταργεῖται — 2x
καταργηθῇ — 1x
καταργηθήσεται — 2x
καταργηθήσονται — 1x
καταργῆσαι — 1x
καταργήσαντος — 1x
καταργήσας — 1x
καταργήσει — 3x
καταργήσῃ — 3x
καταργοῦμεν — 1x
καταργουμένην — 1x
καταργούμενον — 1x
καταργουμένου — 1x
καταργουμένων — 1x
κατηργήθημεν — 1x
κατηργήθητε — 1x
κατήργηκα — 1x
κατήργηται — 3x
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: destroy (5x), do away (3x), abolish (3x), cumber (1x), loose (1x), cease (1x), fall (1x), deliver (1x), miscellaneous (11x).

to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative

to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency

to deprive of force, influence, power

to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish

to cease, to pass away, be done away

to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one

to terminate all intercourse with one

Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
καταργέω katargéō, kat-arg-eh'-o; from G2596 and G691; to be (render) entirely idle (useless), literally or figuratively:—abolish, cease, cumber, deliver, destroy, do away, become (make) of no (none, without) effect, fail, loose, bring (come) to nought, put away (down), vanish away, make void

Katargeo is used in saying that Prophecies will FAIL, Paul then followed with saying tongues would CEASE
παύω
Transliteration
pauō
Pronunciation
pau'-ō (Key)

 

[Major1]

Hillsage, when are ya gonna GO DEEP and share this teaching that you hinted at?

Ya waitin on Jennifer to say "no, I didn't cause yer WARNING" ?

Don't worry about them warnings -- I got two active right now -- but it is really unlawful to be uttered about what staff does

I thank my God I have warnings more than ye all

LOL...……..Maybe but not more than me!

 

[Anto9us]

1. to make to cease or desist
   
   
2. to restrain a thing or person from something
   
   
3. to cease, to leave off
   
   
4. have got release from sin
   
   1. no longer stirred by its incitements and seductions
      

Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
παύω paúō, pow'-o; a primary verb ("pause"); to stop (transitively or intransitively), i.e. restrain, quit, desist, come to an end:—cease, leave, refrain.

So Paul uses katargeo about prophecies, pauo about Tongues, then back to katargeo for knowledge vanisshing away

 

[Anto9us]

Major1 -- I got a three month involuntary vacation from here a few years back...

I gotta really be nice to everybody, I no longer have "a foul to give" having these two active warnings.

Maybe I am like a basketball player who will foul out if he commits one more foul, but heck - ya caint stop playing basketball

 

[Saint Steven]

No, but neither is that the topic here. I've noted before that no one is arguing that there never was any gifting by the Holy Spirit of the items mentioned in Corinthians.

It stands to reason then that they were included in the promise and that they are still applicable in these last days to everyone whom the Lord will call. Right?

Are you called?

 

[Anto9us]

If we look at the Greek that Paul actually wrote, we just see GNOSIS when he says knowledge will vanish away -- he does not specifically say "the charismatic gift of WORD OF KNOWLEDGE" and yet we infer that from context... don't we?

Are we agreed that
WORD OF KNOWLEDGE
TONGUES
PROPHECY
are the three gifts that will παύω and καταργέω -- cease, fail, vanish away ?

Logically, there would be no need for Interpretation of Tongues if Tongues has gone POW! (pauo)

There is no mention of any other gifts OR OFFICES going pow and katargeo -- nothing about prophets or apostles -- nada - zip.

 

[Saint Steven]

Here the genitive τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος (tou hagiou pneumatos) is a genitive of apposition; the gift consists of the Holy Spirit.

Biblical Studies Press. (2005). The NET Bible First Edition; Bible. English. NET Bible.; The NET Bible. Biblical Studies Press.

And the gifts are a subset thereof. Manifestations of which, cannot be separated from the whole. Unless you are claiming that someone can receive the Holy Spirit with ZERO manifestations.

Actually you are inferring that those who received the Spirit after water baptism on the day of Pentecost had no manifestations, right? Because you claim it meant without manifestations. ???

 

[Dave L]

And the gifts are a subset thereof. Manifestations of which, cannot be separated from the whole. Unless you are claiming that someone can receive the Holy Spirit with ZERO manifestations.

Actually you are inferring that those who received the Spirit after water baptism on the day of Pentecost had no manifestations, right? Because you claim it meant without manifestations. ???

Some remain but the charismatic gifts did not. They only came through the apostles' hands after the two outpourings.

 

[Albion]

It stands to reason then that they were included in the promise and that they are still applicable in these last days to everyone whom the Lord will call. Right?

Wrong. It is not a matter of reasoning, but of the Bibles testimony. I am not the one who presented that verse as evidence in the discussion about tongues ceasing. However, and because it was presented, we have to admit that it does not promise anything about tongues in the future but that the Holy Spirit will be given to the believers (of all times). That's the meaning of the verse.

 

[Saint Steven]

Some remain but the charismatic gifts did not. They only came through the apostles' hands after the two outpourings.

The "Apostles' hands"?
Let's check your list of who that includes.

So, what do we have so far?
- Two outpourings (ignore the third)
- The Apostles' hands. (the 12)
- The Apostle Paul (can't forget him)
- Ananias (yet another Apostle appointed by Christ)
- The elders at Timothy's church
- Now you are including Barnabas as an Apostle
- Add Timothy laying hands, but "not suddenly"

What's to say that the gifts could not have continued, given the pattern we see here? Where does your ever-widening circle stop?