Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
But you said that if a tongues-speaker didn't understand, then it is phony.No, it pertains to interpreting (explaining) what those speaking in tongues were saying. They were edified but the rest were not unless they interpreted what was said.
So you're telling us that the Holy Spirit inspires the correct Hebrew shadow but He isn't as good at the Greek heavenly reality? You do remember that the tweaking of the capitalization of the word spirit was also part of what you never have dealt with in the past don't you????If you had studied this a little more thoroughly you would have seen your mistake. Joel's prophecy itself must serve as the authoritative interpretation of Peter's quotation of it. And there is no "of" in Joel 2:28,29. It says plainly "I will pour out My Spirit". All bible translations agree that.
Pertaining to this verse you quoted post #742 "Acts 2:4 "And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit"
Tell me which "Doctor" in the sentence following is a noun and which one is a verb. And if you're really a sharp sword tell me 'why' that is grammatically so?
"That is a nasty cut, but the doctor is in the office so lets let him doctor it up."
Just answer the grammar question please.
We walk in the experiential reality of that 'promise of power'. They do not and therefore can not see what we see. I'm trying to be more 'understanding of their shortcoming'. Working on the FRUIT, if I may.Yes, still with you. Thanks.
I will agree that any believer has the indwelling Spirit for a measure of power available to them. But those operating in manifestations of the HS see so much more.
I have not, but Kris and Bill are two of my favorite podcast preachers. Bill is absolutely a well of spiritual depth.Based on the verse below, it seems like we are not there yet.
John 14:12
Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And frankly, the proof is in the pudding, as they say. In which churches do we see healing and deliverance taking place? If you haven't yet done it, you should read the healing testimonies page on the church website for Bethel, Redding. (link)
Your post is reminiscent of others I have read, and the most powerful message in them is that Charismatics cannot explain their ways to mainstream, traditional Christians. So they brush them all aside with a variety of well-rehearsed and insulting self-defense mechanisms.Again, I would lay a measure of this problem at the feet of the Cessationists that have indoctrinated whole generations against HS manifestations. The church is still in a rebuilding mode in this area. We've been robbed, and we are working to get back on track.
Many receive the manifestation of tongues immediately, but some struggle with it. We help those who struggle to overcome their difficulty. Those who have a mental block of some sort are helped over the hump. Smooth sailing from there.
Pentecostal children typically do not struggle at all to manifest tongues. They didn't grow up in a church that taught that tongues were of the devil. And we see preschoolers praying for the sick, demonstrating incredible faith. This next generation is something else.
2 Timothy 3:5
having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.
Dave,Understanding is the basis for edification. And today's tongues speakers do not understand what they are saying = false experience.
I'm offering proof that today's speaking in tongues is not in any way Biblical tongues of the first century.Dave,
I think your record is stuck in a groove.
You are repeating yourself without an explanation for how your definition of 'edification' differs from Paul's, since Paul says that no-one understands tongues, but also says it edifies. By logic Paul clearly didn't think understanding was necessary for edification. The original Greek doesn't require understanding either.
So how do you come to your unbiblical conclusion?
So you're telling us that the Holy Spirit inspires the correct Hebrew shadow but He isn't as good at the Greek heavenly reality? You do remember that the tweaking of the capitalization of the word spirit was also part of what you never have dealt with in the past don't you????
KJV Joel 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
RSV Joel 2:29 Even upon the menservants and maidservants in those days, I will pour out my spirit.
Since you are sure I'm wrong, why did translators not capitalize spirit in those earlier version?
So I need to ask you 'again' to just deal with my whole post which was pretty short, and answer my grammar question. That would be better than cherry picking rotten cherries thinking you've got me. And since I'm teaching that part to you again, and others maybe for the first time, I really need you to deal with the only question I asked and answer for. I'll copy it again for you.
Interpret = explain, translate. They must have understood before they could do this.But you said that if a tongues-speaker didn't understand, then it is phony.
1 Corinthians 14:13
For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say.
If there is no real thing, they certainly are not going to be making comparisons. But many studies and my own experience has shown that pastors coach people about how to talk in tongues.
That right there proves that is it phony because a gift is just that...a gift, not something learned.
Also, why is it that the one gift mentioned in Corinthians that is the easiest to replicate is the one that is the focus of this experience?
Why are not healings nearly as often claimed as tongues-speaking? Because it is not that easy to heal someone if you do not have the gift of healing.
But anyone can make repetitious sounds.
And there are many other indications that the languages are not languages at all. For example, people with Southern accents or Bostonian accents speak in tongues with the accents they came in with. But these are supposed to be other languages miraculously being spoken by someone who does not have any ability in them otherwise.
I don't want to be offensive, but you want the answer, and this is a start.
I'm offering proof that today's speaking in tongues is not in any way Biblical tongues of the first century.
Not according to Paul, who said the speaker in tongues should pray for the ability to interpret.Interpret = explain, translate. They must have understood before they could do this.
Edification happened because of understanding what was said. Those speaking in tongues knew what they were saying and received edification. They also interpreted what they said. Interpret = explain and translate = they knew what they were saying.You are not offering proof of anything, you are not even offering evidence of anything.
First century tongues was not understandable by first century listeners but it edified the speaker.
Twenty-First century tongues is not understandable by the twenty-first century listeners but it edifies the speaker.
Conclusion: Tongues edify the speaker, even if they don't understand what they are saying.
= Ability to explain or translate.Not according to Paul, who said the speaker in tongues should pray for the ability to interpret.
Well, I personally have watched it being one. More than once. So I can only say I am surprised that you who have more experience in this area are saying that this comes as something of a surprise.My experience is the opposite. I've heard people teach about tongues, but coaching someone how to do it is highly unlikely, because how do you do it?
No, they did not coach them in the specific sounds to make. Or was your scenario meant totally as sarcasm?Repeat after me: "jsoweofns sjofsd flelwljsdf sl"
"jsoweofns sjofsd flelwljsdf sl"
"Right, now you are speaking in tongues"
"Wow!"
That is a reasonable point to make, and I am appreciative that someone has agreed to take on an actual issue like this. But of course this one is among the less important points of contention that have been raised in one post or another in this thread.Like we have both said, there is no proof, but there is evidence and one or two people misusing this particular gift is not good reason to suppose that everyone has... else Paul would simply have told everyone at Corinth to stop speaking in tongues.
Odd you would make the accents a factor. I'd see that as evidence of speaking in another language. If I went over to France and in my best school-taught French told someone that I don't have an accent, I'd probably be laughed at.
No, it pertains to interpreting (explaining) what those speaking in tongues were saying. They were edified but the rest were not unless they interpreted what was said.
Not TOTAL sarcasm. But I repeat, how does a person coach someone in speaking in tongues. How do they tell them when they are doing it right and when they are doing it wrong?No, they did not coach them in the specific sounds to make. Or was your scenario meant totally as sarcasm?
They understood. That's the basis for edification.How were they edified if they could not understand?
Not TOTAL sarcasm. But I repeat, how does a person coach someone in speaking in tongues.
If it is a miraculous gift, it is not learned through instruction and practice.The idea that someone can be taught about tongues is reasonable and to be expected (how often do your sermons tackle the subject of the two chapters of 1 Corinthians?), but coaching is a whole different ballgame.
The proposition that Charismatics offer to the rest of us is that the person has been miraculously endowed by the Holy Spirit with the ability to speak languages he does not otherwise know. Now you are contending that the person who does not speak that language except poorly or incorrectly is nevertheless speaking an unknown tongue that he has been given to do by God himself. Apologies are owed to God if that be accepted by us!
The point is that the speech is supposed to be the real thing! The gift is supposed to allow the person to be able to speak it as if it were his normal language! That is supposedly what shows the phenomenon to be genuine.
Not according to Paul. Why do you persist in promoting the opposite of what the Bible says?They understood. That's the basis for edification.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?